Emperor Cookbook II: Mehmed II

[carl corey]

I tend to score quite high on the barbarian paranoia rating scale (BPRS)

Hehe, me too. (in case you didn't already notice this ) In IMC1 my votes for the first round were partly determined by fogbusting & having barb protection (it's even worse on Immortal). In IMC2 I had to fight barb Spears with Chariots and Warrior (was stupid enough not to tech Archery). It was not pretty, especially if after the Spear there are two more archers and a warrior coming, and there are more behind. Frankly, there are little chances to get that much activity here, but I'd rather be prepared. To quote someone on another forum: "Paranoia is TOTAL AWARENESS!"

 

[carl corey]

/sigh, giving up. I made my points, I know my game at this level like the back of my hand. I play starts exactly like this over and over and over and over. Not kidding. its my favorite style, water based maps with settlable islands and an easy way to carve out a nice chunk of land.

Then maybe you could indeed play this as a shadow to the end. From what I understood, the purpose of the cookbook series was to get people who are not familiar or want to get better at a certain level to do just that. I think it was even proposed in the Monarch series and in the original IMC game that people who feel at ease at a certain level play shadows alongside just to show what can be done and let others battle it out for the votes.

I'm beginning to feel comfortable again at Emperor, but I don't even remember if I've played a Medium & Small map before, so this is certainly new to me, that's why I'm sticking around.

Its perfectly reasonable to have the Copper and Marble in the same BFC, here, isnt it? Along with MORE of the Riverside Tundra for a cottage or watermill? Holy mackerel. Honestly people, am I the ONLY person who thinks this way?

Nope, not the only one. I wondered if I should do that too. Then I remembered barbs. :shrug: To each his own.

 

[Bleys]

Hmm, I did not know this was an M&S map, this is the quote from the OP:

We will be playing at Emperor difficulty, Epic, with a Fractal map.

I was wondering why there seemed to be so many islands and Snakey Land on a Fractal, maybe because its not a fractal, its M&S With Snakey Continents and Islands Mixed in? (I never looked at the settings).

Now I am even more convinced its worth the risk to delay the copper.

 

[carl corey]

Medium & Small, medium sea level. It's in the Settings image in the first post. I assume the "Fractal" part was a copy-paste from EMCI. Not sure about the continents and other stuff.

 

[Bleys]

Never looked at it that closely. No biggie, but I will say the game is over once the GLH is built. AIs totally suck on these maps.

 

[Abegweit]

I dont mean to make such a fuss, honest. I fully agree that there are many minor things here. Heck, the Copper City spot really is a minor thing. My point is simple, why did some people vote for saves with the Copper City AND saves with the Ivory City? That was the major difference, and if you dont get a fogbuster down to the Copper, you will lose it, its probably one of the first places the Barbs will come from, and they WILL be Axemen (Barbs need metal too. If you see a Barb Sword come out of the fog, you can bet there is Iron in that fog close by).

You seem to be deliberately ignoring the objection that people have been making. There really is little to choose between the two locations in the abstract. Similarly, there's not much difference between the Gold and Corn locations. The difference, as several people have pointed, is not the location but the military situation. As I already said, if you had archery, then your choice would be more defensible. I could even be convinced that it's the better one. The problem is that you don't. In fact, militarily you have weakest save of all. It's not in the top three. It's dead last. Instead of addressing this problem, you are planning to build still more cities without garrisons.

 

[Bleys]

Indeed, Abe. As I said, I play this level and this kind of map a lot. Warriors cost 22 hammers, mate. It aint rocket science to crank out a few.

 

[Abegweit]

But you aren't doing it.

 

[carl corey]

Uh, guys, this is going nowhere. Some people, including Bleys, think we can afford to wait and build barb defenses later. Others don't. That's all it boils down to. If you feel strongly about this play accordingly from a save that suits your position. If not, just admit that different people may prioritize different things.

 

[Soirana]

I will leave military for ever, Bleys. (We have apparently diiferent comfort zones speaking of barbarians. And i am probably paranoic)

You are constantly advocating tundra cottages. I actually very rarely build food negative cottages (usually few plains on capitol). How good these are?

Cause i view that city like fish+two guys in a library+guy on marble+guy in a lumbermill. That means it would be a size 5, unless i wanna work water which i rarely do.

 

[Bleys]

I know Abe, that is because I am not overly concerned with Barbs ATM. I have the only Copper in sight covered, so no Axes will show up. Archers can be stopped by Warriors, and the ONLY city in any danger is the Copper City, because I cant whip another garrison unit there. Risky? Maybe. Should I have 2 more warriors instead of that extra WB that gave me 3 more solid city sites? Yes. Maps like this just dont get barbs coming at you from everywhere like Pangaea-style ones. You asked if I was sending the Settler I was building into the wild, and the truth is, no, hes not, The area between the Cap and Erdine is fogbusted by our cities.

 

[Bleys]

You are constantly advocating tundra cottages. I actually very rarely build food negative cottages (usually few plains on capitol). How good these are?

Cause i view that city like fish+two guys in a library+guy on marble+guy in a lumbermill. That means it would be a size 5, unless i wanna work water which i rarely do.

I hate Tundra Cottages, but Watermills arent bad at all with SP. I only mention it because you cannot build Cottages on Tundra unless its on a river.

I view that city as Fish, Copper, Marble, 2 Watermills, a Cottage, and a couple Windmills.

 

[carl corey]

I will leave military for ever, Bleys.

That's not what he's advocating. And I know you're exaggerating, but perhaps you don't realize that there's a chance his save works just fine... How good, don't know.

You are constantly advocating tundra cottages. I actually very rarely build food negative cottages (usually few plains on capitol). How good these are?

That indeed I don't see happening. [Edit]Already explained by Bleys.[/Edit] I'd rather whip the library and run scientists in that city too. Oh, and working water tiles actually works better when you have the Great Lighthouse, as part of your trade route benefit comes from trading with big cities.

 

[Gliese 581]

For me it's not that I'm not paranoid about barbs, I'm just really cheap. My policy is to repel barbs with the least force possible. I did go for archery early though on this map even though it is quite easy to fogbust it extensively.

 

[Bleys]

Uh, guys, this is going nowhere. Some people, including Bleys, think we can afford to wait and build barb defenses later. Others don't. That's all it boils down to. If you feel strongly about this play accordingly from a save that suits your position. If not, just admit that different people may prioritize different things.

Exaclty. I handle barb defense VERY different on maps like this as opposed to Pangaea. I would have half a dozen more Warriors if this was an open-land game. But its not.

And I readily admit that people have different priorities in the game. I have no problem admitting my military is currently weak and inadequate. Not going to stop me from slamming out another city though, and then half a dozen Axes to start looking for Barb cities to take.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

With the "general area" of the first 3 cities is decided to be "best", then the cities without a city near the copper should probably not recieve votes unless they are REALLY magical. At this level, the order you do things is just as important as anything, Ivory = no urgency, but soon, copper = must-have.

Let me argue against this: the point of early copper is to make an axe rush... if you don't plan on this, you just have to find adequate defense...archers + walls with only one city front is something quite defendable...
Then, the copper can be grabbed by the fourth city, or iron can be found in our empire soon...
Waiting for that, rex and vertical growth take priority...

I am not arguying for my save (as Abegweit said, I think the big minus is my lack of workers, not copper), I really don't care about the votes it gets, but like you I think the debate on the saves and the reason why we make our vote is the point of this thread...

Cheers,
Raskolnikov

PS: speaking of which, I will vote soon , i am looking at the saves...

edit: @Pigswill: at the BPRS, I am more scoring on the SWISPRS, the Shaka Will Invade Soon Paranoia Rating Scale...

 

[Bleys]

Let me argue against this: the point of early copper is to make an axe rush... if you don't plan on this, you just have to find adequate defense...archers + walls with only one city front is something quite defendable...

I really disagree with this. The point of Copper is to make Axes and Spears, thats true, but not all Axes are for rushing the AIs. I actually prefer NOT to fogbust to encourage the Barbs to found cities. Thats where my axes are headed, with the hopes I get enough XP on barb cities to open HE.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

Hey, I won't be doing axes in the 20th century! Just around 1000BC instead of 1500BC... my logic: no rush -> best sites first -> metal in the first 5 or 6 cities (those I can allow before COL)

edit to try to be more precise: what I feel is important is priorities, if no rush is planned, well priority is REX. That can be done by taking barbs cities or with fogbust + settling... I totally agree that axes are important... but in this particular game, I am not sure the copper city is "a must have to settle as fast as possible"... a " to be grabbed before we got invaded"? Sure

 

[Abegweit]

Let me argue against this: the point of early copper is to make an axe rush... if you don't plan on this, you just have to find adequate defense...archers + walls with only one city front is something quite defendable...
Then, the copper can be grabbed by the fourth city, or iron can be found in our empire soon...

Have to disagree here. Copper is not just about rushes. It is one of the methods which can be used for defence and for that it is better than archers. It's all about balancing various costs. Researching archery has its costs too. Your ivory city suffers from the lack of IW and AH. Those of us who settled the copper will be better prepared when it comes time to put down this city.

@Pigswill: at the BPRS, I am more scoring on the SWISPRS, the Shaka Will Invade Soon Paranoia Rating Scale...

Shaka has no border with us. Why are you afraid of him?

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

@Abegweit:

The SWISPRS is not related to this game, more to previous offline (bad) experiences... (that's real paranoia )

You are right with the general usefullness of axes in defense, but again, in this particular game with no rush, few land for barbs to spawn as this is a snaky MS type map so easily fogbustable, I think copper is not the first priority... As I already said to Bleys, I am definitaly going for axes in the near future in any cases...

edit: agreed about lack of AH and IW too, I felt like going into the trade loop (thus teching to writing->more advanced techs) was the need after basic workers techs (the ivory city can still improve a corn if I am not wrong). AH can be begged really soon, and IW traded. As I said earlier, the trade argument was perhaps (looking at the AIs met so far) a move...