Emperor Cookbook II: Mehmed II

[Abegweit]

@RRR Well, it was a high priority for me because I chose to skip archery. You need one or the other. Horses will do for a while but we don't have them. I agree that it is far less important in your game. This also means that you have the luxury of choosing the Marble site when you finally get around to settling down there. That city should be founded some day, after all.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

@RRR Well, it was a high priority for me because I chose to skip archery. You need one or the other. Horses will do for a while but we don't have them.

Exactly... cases where you need both archers +axes to defend against barbs are rare...

 

[Bleys]

... but in this particular game, I am not sure the copper city is "a must have to settle as fast as possible"...

And this is part of my issue. Its a clear winner in my book because of the Marble + the Copper, which will give us a more than reasonable shot at the GLibrary. I totally understand people not wanting to build the GL, and focusing on other areas instead, but for me, the Marble means GL, so I wanted both in the BFC.

 

[Abegweit]

And this is part of my issue. Its a clear winner in my book because of the Marble + the Copper, which will give us a more than reasonable shot at the GLibrary. I totally understand people not wanting to build the GL, and focusing on other areas instead, but for me, the Marble means GL, so I wanted both in the BFC.

There is no need to have the marble in the BFC. You only need to bring it on line. I think it was Pigswill who pointed out that a second border pop should come in time. That's especially true since the only thing to do with this city is to hire a couple of scientists. Culture will come.

Exactly... cases where you need both archers +axes to defend against barbs are rare...

Why would I want archers when I have axes? That's a small minus about your game (but only a small one). Axes are clearly better.

 

[Bleys]

Yes, in time, the 1S spot will pop the border.

But, as I have also pointed out, the Marble is one of the better tiles in that area to actually work. I could see if there was something in the east that was better, but there isnt.

I guess I am just not as paranoid about barbs on this kind of map at this level. It may not be the best city in our empire, but I do want it to be the best it can be.

 

[Abegweit]

I guess I am just not as paranoid about barbs on this kind of map at this level.

I see that. You seem to be completely ignoring the barb archer in your game. I would be panicking I thought I was aggressive in this department (I have less military than most others) but you beat me hands down.

And I really really don't think it's good to dance up and down in front of Toku like that showing off how naked you are. Put on some minimal amount of clothes. Underwear at least. Geez.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

@Bleys: I think this city is valuable fot its resources.... so it's a question of when do we want them... I thought that copper could wait a little (archers can hold at first but then as Abegweit just said, axes are better)...
But exception of the resources, this city is crap seriously (no good food excess, no cottages, few and crappy hills)...

on saves (it's 4 am here so please don't take offense if it's quick, I looked quite a lot to all of them, just took few notes...):

First, general comment: Mysticism is a usefull tech early on... people without it and having gold in the second ring of Edirne are good

Krafster: good worforce (one of the best )! but you lack the GL techs. While I think emperor and this game can be done without it, this wonder fits perfectly the map, and we all are perfectionnists, no? Also, a bit behind in expansion (only 2 cities) compared to others.

Ipex: a bit behind in expansion as well... but Istanbul is well improved. Your problem is military, you have no archers and no copper in the near future... also you are lacking fogbusting

RJM: Strange tech path... and I don't like your Ankara's placement... basically, on this type of map, you want everything in water! And don't grow on unimproved tiles!

Soirana: nice empire! Well improved... Axes will be welcome though and the GL will start in 2 turns...

Winston Hugues: Good empire! small minus with tech acquired (some have done better) and power, but good overall

Bleys: Good expansion, good exploration... your plan has been well prepared...
But you are REALLY weak for now (2 warriors), and I wonder about your micro of the GL build (settler for overflow I understand, but with two warriors and already 3 cities I wonder if it's the best solution)...

Chronium: A bit weak, and behind in expansion , but founding the copper site can solve both problems quickly... otherwise nice.

King Morgan: Your expansion suffered from GL build, science is nice but you lack of pottery in the tech path... and I hope you were not working that 1f 1h tile in Istanbul since too many turns... Otherwise nice

DHeisman: Nice, but building the Pyramids is expansive without stone...also Istanbul lacks improvements.

MKLH: Cities are well improved so you have a nice tech rate... but really what happened with Ankara? One of the coast in not very good You didn't considered the GL (no prerequired techs)...

Pigswill: Good save, Istanbul nicely improved, gold soon online. Nice one with the BPRS Minus: some questionnable MM with workers (Istanbul mine for instance).

Carl: Nice too... good expansion and military . A bit behind in techs though...

Abegweit: Good techs, good workforce, overall good... but a bit weak right now...

Votes:
1 Abegweit
2 Pigswill
3 Carl

Cheers,
Raskolnikov

 

[Abegweit]

@RRR Nice analysis of the saves. I wondered what you meant by

Pigswill... Minus: some questionnable MM with workers (Istanbul mine for instance).

... and then realised that he made the same mistake as me. Do-oh!

Abegweit: Good techs, good workforce, overall good... but a bit weak right now...

Hmm... I did make the same mistake as him. Thanks for overlooking it.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

Hmm... I did make the same mistake as him. Thanks for overlooking it.

I didn't want to sound too harsh... and I had already said that to you in a previous spoiler

 

[Abegweit]

Yeah. Thanks for pointing it out actually. It's something I almost always forget and need to work on. I wouldn't have noticed if you hadn't brought it up.

 

[playshogi]

I like Raskolnikov's save. I like have the 3rd city on ivory and archery. Only thing I would have done differnet is AH instead of pottery. As far as I can see pottery wasn't used yet (no granaries, cottages) and the cow could have been hooked up by now, maybe.

 

[Bleys]

After seeing the way RRR stacked em up, I realize now why my save is weak. I did "gambit" my military more than I intended too, heh. The stupidest part is that I could have easily had 2 more Warriors out and been in the exact same place I am now, and I even could have sent the Worker down to improve the Marble ASAP, to ram out the Monument faster. Lets face it, if I am 14/15 from popping the borders and have a Worker finishing the road to the Copper, my save gets a lot better.

So yes, I understand. As I mentioned before, I should have been the one to point out the issue between the 2 copper sites before votes, the discussion probably would have been a lot milder. I apologize if my tone caused others to add tone themselves, it wasnt my intention to be the squeaky wheel. I just wanted to be sure you had my point of view, I guess. A simple sentence in my game-synopsis would probably have been sufficient to make my point.

 

[Winston Hughes]

@Bleys

Even if it has got a little heated, it's been entertaining and informative throughout.

 

[ChromiumL]

First, my vote....

1st - Pigswill
2nd - Abegweit
3rd - Bleys

That brings the total tally to:

17 votes - Abegweit
15 votes - Pigswill
12 votes - RRRaskolnikov
8 votes - Carl Corey
2 votes - DHeisman
2 votes - Soirana
1 vote - Winston Hughes
1 vote - Bleys
1 vote - King Morgan

So the winner is Abegweit!! We will be using his save for the next round! This round will be played through 400 AD, and we will start voting on Sunday.

Just to add my 2 cents--(this may be part of why I struggle--so you may not want to listen!). When I play civ, I like to keep as many options/opportunities open as possible. This allows me to change my mind on things later if I need to. From the discussion I have heard about the placement of the copper city, it seems like either spot doesn't really prevent you from taking a certain path later. If you choose 1S of the copper, you will have to wait longer for the Marble--but that doesn't mean that you can start to work on the Great Library without it (and get it connected ASAP). The spot that gets the marble in the BFC also doesn't really 'close' any doors for future advancement--it just means you need to wait a bit longer to hook up that copper. If you have the units to protect yourself and aren't looking for a quick rush, then waiting a little longer for copper isn't going to hurt you. So, either spot for the copper city really won't change anyone's gameplay--it just a matter of opinion...

Risk management is different. I can't tell you how many times I have quit games after getting a city taken because my defenses sucked and I got backstabbed or raided by barbs. Because of this, I have started to place a higher priority on building units. But, then again, I usually play Big/Small maps, not Medium/Small, so that could make a difference for the amount of barbs--having so much sea around you does make it easier to fog-bust. Non-the less, I think leaving a city undefended (especially a border city) is a risk most people don't like to take (even if you can whip up defenses quickly). But, if you know what you are doing, and fog-bust well, having fewer units makes your economy stronger... its a personal choice, again a matter of opinion...

If Bleys' save would have had just a few more warriors, or already have archer tech, it would have probably done a lot better. I think most people were favorable or neutral to your city placement, but didn't like your risk management choices (not everyone knows how to manage with only 2 warriors at 1500BC).

I think that if you see some trend in saves that you are curious about, the sooner you bring it up, the better. That's a big part of what the Emperor Cookbook is about.

I fixed the problem with the map description in the opening post--sorry about that!

 

[pigswill]

@Abegweit. Glad we're playing from your save coz I think that overall its better than mine.

 

[Abegweit]

@Abegweit. Glad we're playing from your save coz I think that overall its better than mine.

Thanks for the compliment. I think that there is very little to choose between them. The closeness of the vote reflects that. I would have been happy to play either of them. They are all very playable for that matter.

 

[Abegweit]

After seeing the way RRR stacked em up, I realize now why my save is weak. I did "gambit" my military more than I intended too, heh. The stupidest part is that I could have easily had 2 more Warriors out and been in the exact same place I am now, and I even could have sent the Worker down to improve the Marble ASAP, to ram out the Monument faster. Lets face it, if I am 14/15 from popping the borders and have a Worker finishing the road to the Copper, my save gets a lot better.

So yes, I understand. As I mentioned before, I should have been the one to point out the issue between the 2 copper sites before votes, the discussion probably would have been a lot milder. I apologize if my tone caused others to add tone themselves, it wasnt my intention to be the squeaky wheel. I just wanted to be sure you had my point of view, I guess. A simple sentence in my game-synopsis would probably have been sufficient to make my point.

Good summary. Being a squeaky wheel is not a bad thing if it provokes discussion, which it certainly did. My tone got a bit out of hand too, as did that of some others, but I think the discussion has been interesting and informative. That's the objective after all. We seem to have come to some sort of consensus.

 

[Cornhog]

I've never done a cookbook type of game, but I read this thread at work and it sounded fun. I missed part one, but here goes part two...

Spoiler :

...and I think the game is essentially won at this point. Wasn't expecting that I built the Great Lighthouse, and while looking for the next technology to research, I noticed that the Oracle hadn't been built and that I had the req's for Metal Casting. So I quickly researched monotheism and priesthood before chopping the hell out of the forests of Edirne. This is why I think settling near the marble was better than the copper. I could have saved a forest or two with Bley's (or my) first 100 turns save (that I didn't post because I did it today ). Nevertheless, I chose Metal Casting as my free tech and set about building the Colossus in Istanbul, nabbing it easily.

I'm a little bummed that Persia landed on my island so quickly. I thought I had time to claim that land. I'll claim it eventually. Muahaha.

With my wonders complete, I began shipping settlers to the little islands to take advantage of the fish/crab resources and our dual Lighthouse/Colossus water bonus. I also shipped an axeman to each overseas city.

At this point, I'm slowly moving settlers up that middle "spire" next to the Japanese homeland. I'm also building the Great Library, Mausoleum, and Statue of Zeus (why not?) at the same time. Again, the marble — which I just got online — would have helped immensely.

My empire is a little weak militarily, but I am out-teching everyone including Mansa. After this round of wonders, I'll need to embark on a military stimulus program There also needs to be another round of mainland settling. Still, I think the game's essentially won. It's merely a matter of teching to gunpowder, and then marching over our enemies with janissaries.

I'm sure someone optimized this better than I did. I'm excited to see what everyone else has

I hope these screenshots work! Here's the mainland and the islands. Then the northern regions. And finally Istanbul itself.

 

[Monsterzuma]

Round 2; 1500 BC - 400 AD

Spoiler :

Spent most of the round expanding casually.



I can see 3 tiles of Tokugawa's main city with Dye on them... In hindsight I should have sent a spy over to investigate (no open borders with Toku means normal units won't do).

All of my cities have Axemen as garrisons. I have a small army of catapults parked about ready to lend assistance when our drafting machine gets going. Putting that UU of ours to use is definitely in the plans.

Techs in: IW, Math, Alphabet, Calendar, Construction, CS, Philosophy;
Not in: Aesthetics, Literature; Metal Casting

No wonders built

Most cities have Courthouses, Granaries and Libraries up; mainland cities have barracks for Nationalism fun

No. of cities: 12

Beaker/turn rate: 160 breaking even

2 imperfections due to mismanagement: marble not improved yet, 2 calendar resources south-west of Istanbul not improved yet.

 

[Roxlimn]

Bleys:

Dude, we are talking about a couple warriors, less than 50 total hammers. I have 2, and will whip the Monument into a Warrior where there is no Garrison. I think the Copper city is a factor. Those who didnt build it at all are more likely to have Barb Axes coming from that area. Those who built it with the Marble in the 3rd ring may be forced to delay the GL, and will slow the HE and NE, 2 very important early game Wonders. Getting those 3 Wonders early will almost make this game a blowout.

By the looks of it, getting GLH, TGL, and Pyramids will make the rest of the game somewhat moot. Pyramids is buildable in the capital provided it secures a good enough happy cap soon so as to work its better hammer tiles. Once the Pyramids and TGL is a wrap, the tech situation will be secure.

After Elephants come online, taking out Toku easily will be an option. HE will make that easier, but the presence of Ivory, Shaka to block him on the opposite side, and significant land for expansion makes that easy anyway.

RRR, personally, I think the GL must be built, and to be honest, I am considering building it in the Gold city, and turning that city into our GP farm. Corn, Clams, 3 Lake tiles, plus the lake allows us to put more farms on tiles touching it if we wish. GL and NE in Eridine = massive Scientists, and the earlier we get it done, the better, IMHO. I play a lot of maps exactly like this, none of this is outside the realm of "probably". No AI is going to attack us with Galleys if we are reasonable about diplomacy, so the only access to us is that city blocking Toku. Walls in there, and a bunch of Garrison units (which we will want anyway, as our GP farm, for HR happiness) and its a done-deal. I predict this game will be a blowout by Round 4 (from any save, really, that gets the GLH).

GLH in Corn/Gold and Pyramids for Rep in capital seals the deal. Kinda easier than the games I've played on Monarch with Tundra starts and Imperialistic neighbors. GLH is a big factor here.

And I look at that city as "Marble And Copper", not "Copper and eventually Marble". The copper IS in the BFC.

If it's any consolation, I placed my city in the same location, but it was a close thing - I was equally considering sending it up to Ivory City for greater immediate gains.

The problem with settling with Copper outside the BFC is that it doesn't get Copper immediately, so you have something of a security where you don't have any troops worth mentioning.

Since you play this game type a lot, I suspect that you have more of a bead on how much military really is necessary by what time, so you can be a lot more cavalier about how you develop military early on - you're playing it closer to the edge because you have an intuition for where it is on games like this.

My problem with developing this City was lack of access to Caste System, which I normally use to pop the borders of cities like this later in the game. Since I'm NOT in Caste, I have to work food-low sites to build a Monument, and it took a good deal of time to access the Copper after founding the city.

One thing though, we didnt really "discuss" stuff. I am willing to bet that I have changed a few minds here, and had we started this discussion before we voted, I am sure some votes would be different. My bad, actually, the INSTANT I saw that alternate site for the Copper City, I should have brought it up for discussion. Its perfectly reasonable to have the Copper and Marble in the same BFC, here, isnt it? Along with MORE of the Riverside Tundra for a cottage or watermill? Holy mackerel. Honestly people, am I the ONLY person who thinks this way?

No. I made the same judgement based on improveable tiles. I play Tundra starts, too, so I have a decent bead on how good tundra cities can be, more or less. Settling like we did is a play for medium-term viability at the cost of immediate access to Copper.

PS: Kinda late to the discussion. Please don't reply.