Emperor Cookbook II: Mehmed II

[Abegweit]

NMy settler will be whipped into the GLH, and he will settle the Pigs and Ivory.

My settler will be whipped into the GLH too. But he will have a worker out first. Three workers for four cities is not enough. I will train the worker, send him off, build a granary, grow to size six and then whip. I didn't realize you were planning on whipping at size four. That's just wrong.

2 warriors should never make-or-break a save IMHO.

My save is weak enough with only four of the them. And yes, the difference between four and two is huge. Your military situation is VERY precarious. Mine is reasonably secure ATM and will be solved when I get copper. In any case, my main point was that two warriors is superior to a workboat in this position.

I just think that folks voted without considering the implications of the site of the Copper city. I think having any city down there is a definite plus. Gold and Ivory are already ours. Heck, had RRR settled 1S of the Copper instead of the northern ivory, his would be the best by far.

RRR's biggest problem is the lack of workers. His decision to go after the ivory was interesting and original. However, since he went after archery, he doesn't know either AH or IW. This is bad because that site badly needs these techs for proper development.

I took Hunting because I know the Copper is delayed. I am 6 turns from Archery, then my military problems are solved too, eh?

A second ago, I heard you say that you took hunting for the ivory so which is it? I believe the ivory story. After all, you are researching Pottery, not Archery. You have to do something about the military situation NOW. Six turns is way too long if a barb archer shows up. Hell, even a single warrior could be too much to handle. Not to mention that Toku could get ideas. You sure are tempting him.

Let me repeat that I disagree with the settler build. There is no need in this game for mad expansion. Toku is blocked so we can take our time. In your game, I would be training a worker until the unhappies go away, followed by several warriors. And, yes, I would be researching archery. The copper will simply take to long to come on line.

 

[carl corey]

REX (with cheap Lighthouses, Granaries and Courthouses - awesome)

And cheap Harbors. Awesome indeed.

 

[carl corey]

I didn't realize you were planning on whipping at size four. That's just wrong.

I'm very curious: why is it wrong?

 

[Bleys]

No kidding. I always 2-pop whip at 4 if I have 2 seafood to regrow, they come back FAST.


Abe, why cant there be multiply reasons for teching Hunting? Indeed, my ORIGINAL thought was "I will settle on that Plains Elephant for an instant +1 Happy, and be that much closer to Archery", but later, when the Copper was spotted, it became "Now I can delay Archery if needed". Would you prefer if I put 4 turns into Archery, then said "If a barb shows up, I can whip an Archer in 3 turns"?

And I disagree about the threat of the Barbs. They dont spawn right next to cities, they are always at LEAST 2 tiles outside our culture. In case you havent noticed, BTW, there are other-AI scouts roaming around too, and guess what, they also "fogbust".

As for the Settler, he is going up ASAP because he gives us +1 happy on the Pigs/Ivory spot, period. If I am forced to stifle growth again before the GLH is done, then I will likely stick another Worker in, but I have 3, and its not like there is tons of land. Believe it or not, you can get away with less workers on this map than all-Land ones, because there arent as many tiles to improve, and roads arent required for trade. 1 per city is PLENTY IMHO.

 

[Bleys]

One other thing. I think we should consider this suggestion from the "Cookbook" thread:

That is way I suggested more flexibility by allowing best save or own save for all rounds. So some players can see through their long term planning

 

[Abegweit]

@Carl & Bleys

We have a fifteen-turn cycle from one whip to the next. By whipping for two pop, more of that cycle is spent on the settler and less on the other things you want. In the current case, the city should be allowed to grow to size six working the GLH or other stuff. Put one turn in the settler at size five and then whip it out when the city reaches size six. That's just two turns out of the fifteen. Once the gold comes on line, this will work even better.

 

[Abegweit]

No kidding. I always 2-pop whip at 4 if I have 2 seafood to regrow, they come back FAST.

Add a cow and they come back even faster.

Abe, why cant there be multiply reasons for teching Hunting? Indeed, my ORIGINAL thought was "I will settle on that Plains Elephant for an instant +1 Happy, and be that much closer to Archery", but later, when the Copper was spotted, it became "Now I can delay Archery if needed". Would you prefer if I put 4 turns into Archery, then said "If a barb shows up, I can whip an Archer in 3 turns"?

I would accept this argument if you actually were researching archery. I disagree that you can afford to wait for copper.

And I disagree about the threat of the Barbs. They dont spawn right next to cities, they are always at LEAST 2 tiles outside our culture. In case you havent noticed, BTW, there are other-AI scouts roaming around too, and guess what, they also "fogbust".

Where are they? I haven't seen any at all. After all, we have blocked them off.

As for the Settler, he is going up ASAP because he gives us +1 happy on the Pigs/Ivory spot, period.

Is he going out in the wilderness on his own? Where do you plan on finding an escort?

 

[ChromiumL]

Wow--lots of great discussion!

I am mixed on the Marble--initially on my save, I wanted to place the city 1S of the copper, but after reading all this, I have to agree with Bleys that as long as you have archery, the copper can probably wait. Having the marble more quickly opens options for different players who have different goals in the game. Having copper delayed just means we have to pop the borders quickly, it won't change how anyone really 'plays' the game.

As far as people being able to play their own saves--
I think that as long as people are only shadowing with their own saves (after they play the normal round) there is nothing wrong with that. I am not quite sure if those should be submitted for a vote. If we are going to do things that way, we should just let people play from whatever save they want. This sorta changes the purpose of the cookbook. If we want to do things that way, we could just play rounds together and discuss without the voting. We can talk about this for next round if people are interested.

Finally, I agree that the first round is probably too short. We had some discussion at the end of last round about how to fix that--but nobody really suggested anything. 500BC is probably better, and that helps cut down the long second round. We can talk about that again at the end of this round.

I don't have time to look at saves now, so that will probably come later tonight. Then we can tally votes tomorrow and continue on.

 

[Soirana]

Bleys: Aesthetics is a decent trade yes. But to whom besides Cyrus you are going trade with? Toku? I think we should try to sent scouting workboat towards and beyound Cyrus. Few other reasonable guys could change my mind. If we do not tech Aesthetics then marble becomes less important.

 

[Abegweit]

I am mixed on the Marble--initially on my save, I wanted to place the city 1S of the copper, but after reading all this, I have to agree with Bleys that as long as you have archery, the copper can probably wait. Having the marble more quickly opens options for different players who have different goals in the game. Having copper delayed just means we have to pop the borders quickly, it won't change how anyone really 'plays' the game.

Agreed that the copper can wait if you have Archery. However, the purpose of the city is copper. If you don't need copper then you don't need the city. It will never be very good and there are several good alternative sites. I wouldn't worry about losing the metal. There is another source of copper and, with all this land, we probably have iron somewhere.

As far as people being able to play their own saves--
I think that as long as people are only shadowing with their own saves (after they play the normal round) there is nothing wrong with that. I am not quite sure if those should be submitted for a vote. If we are going to do things that way, we should just let people play from whatever save they want. This sorta changes the purpose of the cookbook. If we want to do things that way, we could just play rounds together and discuss without the voting. We can talk about this for next round if people are interested.

I personally am favour of letting people play any save they want but it's your thread. It does change the format but I think it's an improvement.

Finally, I agree that the first round is probably too short. We had some discussion at the end of last round about how to fix that--but nobody really suggested anything. 500BC is probably better, and that helps cut down the long second round. We can talk about that again at the end of this round.

Agreed. It's too short.

 

[Monsterzuma]

*nevermind*

I'd like to subscribe for the next few rounds if that is still possible.

 

[Bleys]

Abe, if you look at the spot I am proposing for the settler, its near Edrine, and actually shares a tile with it. The area between Erdine and Istanbul is fogbusted by our cities, so yes, he is going into the wild.

Bleys: Aesthetics is a decent trade yes. But to whom besides Cyrus you are going trade with? Toku? I think we should try to sent scouting workboat towards and beyound Cyrus. Few other reasonable guys could change my mind. If we do not tech Aesthetics then marble becomes less important.

Um, one or more of the 5 AIs we havent met? Also, Shaka isnt hard to trade with at all, Toku is the only one who is a PITA, and even then, once I have Currency, I can sell him Aesthetics for a pile of deficit-research cash.

 

[Soirana]

5Ai's not met? C'mmon Bleys we met Shaka, Toku and Cyrus. That means 3 more left. It might happen some of them being rather isolated or jerks (montesuma springs to mind). I would call chances 50/50.

I guess we simple look at that city differently. For you it is marble city with copper to add on.
For most others it is copper with whatever comes together with it.

re: Trades: So you won't go for that nice literature after Aesthetics and having marble? If so Shaka will have construction at time you have currency. If he is low on land he will attack someone. I am not sure how all inner aggressive aspect works. So we might need some military instead of great library.

 

[DHeisman]

As far as people being able to play their own saves[/I]--
I think that as long as people are only shadowing with their own saves (after they play the normal round) there is nothing wrong with that. I am not quite sure if those should be submitted for a vote. If we are going to do things that way, we should just let people play from whatever save they want. This sorta changes the purpose of the cookbook. If we want to do things that way, we could just play rounds together and discuss without the voting. We can talk about this for next round if people are interested.

I agree! There can only be one!

 

[Bleys]

ok 3, my bad, I am thinking of my regular games, where I play Large maps. But 50/50? Please. We already have the biggest non-trading AI in the game, Toku, there is no other AI that doesnt trade.

And I look at that city as "Marble And Copper", not "Copper and eventually Marble". The copper IS in the BFC.

And of course I am going for Lit after Aesthetics, thats the point, Lit opens the GL, HE, and NE. Marble makes Lit a tech worth BEELINING, even at Deity.

And yes, we do need units, eventually, but no one is coming right now. The Copper is IN THE BFC OF MY CITY! Its not some "extra 3rd ring pop".

/shrug, I will just play my own save to the finish, and when I am totally dominating the AI at 500 AD like Gleise's game (which we havent seen, but if he says its a blowout, it is). You can skip the GLH and GL for all I care, but I think those 2 Wonders are game-winning plans on this map. If we didnt have Marble, I probably dont go for the GL, and I probably tech to Construction and HBR instead for War Elephants and go stomp Toku with em. But as it stands, I count room for at LEAST 8 more good cities, and I havent even exposed the area to the West of those furs, probably room for more there. Humans are much better than AIs at expanding to other landmasses. Build a few Galleys, some for transporting settler-archer pairs, some for defending our seafood, and away we go.

 

[Bleys]

*nevermind*

I'd like to subscribe for the next few rounds if that is still possible.

Of course mate. You can actually jump into this game just about any round you wish. There is no "rule" that you must play the previous round to be eligible for the next one.

So when the winner of this round is chosen, there will be a post linking the save (Chrome does a nice job hosting!). Play from that save, and submit a report, and your in!

 

[Soirana]

bleys:
Calm down. No one said your save is bad.

I actually think all posted saves are in wincapable position. Problem is most of them are close so we are judging on minor things or personal preferances.

The think about copper is simple. You will have it in cultrual border in 21 turn (yeap, cracked that password just to take look at your save). Luckily it is not in in tundra so no penalty for mining.
Still it is 25+ turns untill you reach axes. Okay, if you sure that will happen.
I will skip barb axes (IMO more realistic is spear and spear can be dealt with warriors if need is.) You are not denying it is barb archer around here, right?
It might (highly unrealistic but still) reach you "copper city" in eight turns. Warrior on flatland is what 2+0.5(for city)+0.5 fortify against 3 of archer+first strikes. What is your supposed course of actions? And how close that archer needs to be to your copper city for you to start worry?
(No offense here, just interested).

No speaking of two extra warriors. That is not 50 hammers running around equal to workboat. Look at Abegweit save. 6-7turns till copper and still fogbusting main land.

My own save (I dislike it) most of down land fogbusted (except one aquare i guess). Still wasted warrior in Edirne (it could be better elsewhere). I do believe western finger is fogbusted by Toku borders and his scout who is locked there. Eastern one has barb city so probably no barb generation there. It is low and calculated risks.

Your save, in my humble opinion, will probably do very fine. just i do not like your take on risks. It is low probability to backfire with barb activity but it is probability i do not like and there are some other nice saves. So i would not vote for your save (in case you are still wondering why you have so little votes).

Peace, man.

Edit: I am not sure about humans being better expander's Most AI's actually fail to manage thei expansion. Shifting forces and workers in galleys is just beyound them. So they often start they play on new landmass from nearly zero.

 

[pigswill]

I'm not sure how the dialogue got so intense. I'd reckon that we'll have room to expand to a reasonable size without needing to go to war. The Great Library certainly helps in GS production and the Epics are also worth building. Aesthetics is a nice trading tech and its likely that with time and exploration we'll meet more trading partners.
Even though tundra is improvable marble/copper is not going to be a top five city. The only issue of substance appears to be weighing the benefits of immediate copper vs accessible marble and that I think depends on how paranoid/neurotic people are about barbarians. I tend to score quite high on the barbarian paranoia rating scale (BPRS) but that's just me.

 

[Gliese 581]

I tend to score quite high on the barbarian paranoia rating scale (BPRS) but that's just me.

Ten characters.

 

[Bleys]

/sigh, giving up. I made my points, I know my game at this level like the back of my hand. I play starts exactly like this over and over and over and over. Not kidding. its my favorite style, water based maps with settlable islands and an easy way to carve out a nice chunk of land.

I will play my own save as a shadow, and jump back in for Round 3, OK? (that is, if there even is a round 3, since Gleise thinks his game is over now, and quite frankly, I believe him). At that point, I suppose we will see.

I dont mean to make such a fuss, honest. I fully agree that there are many minor things here. Heck, the Copper City spot really is a minor thing. My point is simple, why did some people vote for saves with the Copper City AND saves with the Ivory City? That was the major difference, and if you dont get a fogbuster down to the Copper, you will lose it, its probably one of the first places the Barbs will come from, and they WILL be Axemen (Barbs need metal too. If you see a Barb Sword come out of the fog, you can bet there is Iron in that fog close by).

One thing though, we didnt really "discuss" stuff. I am willing to bet that I have changed a few minds here, and had we started this discussion before we voted, I am sure some votes would be different. My bad, actually, the INSTANT I saw that alternate site for the Copper City, I should have brought it up for discussion. Its perfectly reasonable to have the Copper and Marble in the same BFC, here, isnt it? Along with MORE of the Riverside Tundra for a cottage or watermill? Holy mackerel. Honestly people, am I the ONLY person who thinks this way?