[BTS] Emperor Shadow Game: Willem

[lymond]

hmmm...I guess Utrecht spot is okay actually. Can share horses and corn...and then settle 1E of Copper, where that city will eventually take the corn from Utrecht as its main food source, but has strong copper tile to work. 3 strong cities all close by and overlapping...and all with a good food source.

TW>POT is perfectly fine on this level, but I was thinking with low commerce and AH in, just go straight to Writing with ability to knock out a creative library in Dam quickly for some early scientists.

Thank you sampsa I didn't know about that! One thing I am wondering is since I am going to grow to 4 before settler was it a mistake to already start chopping? Will I just pre chop the forest and leave it until I start the settler?

This is a very good question. Pre-chopping is a thing indeed, but you don't necessarily need to wait if a chop is ready. Putting a chop into the settler can speed it up for whipping leading to a faster settler. Then go prepare a chopof another forest and likely finish at or just after your 4>2 settler whip - putting the OF from settler whip and chop into a new worker.. Also, it is important to keep track of base hammers of your city while producing settler and the production points of the settler that allow for 4>2 whip, which =<69H of production into the settler. If you hit 70H then it becomes a 1pop whip. (think about the fact that a citizen = 30 hammers and a settler cost 100H)

Note that if you want to get some growth in between chops or delay a turn of settler production due to timings, you can always queue something else for a turn like a warrior or whatever. Learn to move things around in your build queue. OR in the case where you are still size 3 and want to grow to 4 to whip, but a chop is ready, you can add settler for a turn to take chop then switch back to whatever you were building to grow.

ah yep, good point from sampsa. Binary research is a pretty important concept once you hit deficit research after settling your 1st city. Keep in mind that you are still progressing a tiny bit toward whatever you are teching due to the 1 beaker from Palace, but you are fully maximizing your gold for a while until you have enough to finish the tech. Sometimes it is just a turn or 2 but as you start hitting more expensive techs like Alpha, Maths, or Aesths, you may go quite a few turns longer to max gold, which also helps fund your extended expansion.

And then with Libraries in you can run scientists too for increased research rate wile you run 0% slider. With an early creative library you can get those beakers going sooner and get your Academy eventually.

Lastly, on another note, it is probably good idea to get some warriors out to spawnbust, especially the area due W of the copper where you will settle your 4th city. But I'd like to see the area to the SW of scouted soon for seafood. (Not sure what that 1 warrior is doing near Dam)

edit: Okay, I opened the save as I thought you should have more warriors and I could not see them in pics, plus I wanted to plan some spawbusting.

First, a single unit can spawnbust a 5X5 tile area from the tile it stand on. This is very useful in preventing barb spawn and protecting future city sites. Now Noble is less a concern for barbs, but this gets far more important as you move up levels...and even here with all the jungle you are going to run into some barb issues sooner than later with no nearby AIs. (granted you will have copper soon enough)

Extended scouting is secondary to spawnbusting. So that warrior way up N is not doing the right thing here. Bring him back S to stand 1NE of the western corn for now.

Note that the area SE of Dam is extremely easy to spawnbust. You can send that warrior near Dam down there to stand 2E of that corn down there and never worry about barbs in your backyard. (Just be careful when you send him down there as there might be an animal running about down there..not sure if you have any more free barb wins left)

If you have warrior popping out soon from somewhere, I might.send him N or NW of Utrecht a bit. Utrecht's borders will pop soon giving visibility to a good bit of tiles up there so I think NW near the sugars is good for now. Anyway, good idea to put this concept into practice now.

Coastal scout is a better option later to open trade routes, so maybe pop a Workboat outta Dam soon and put it on auto-explore.

edit2: I played a few turns to setup next settler whip. I'm posting a screenshot of Dam the turn after I whipped the settler (ha..forgot you were not in slavery yet so it threw me off). Anyway, not where I hover to left of production bar and see the results of overflow as well as a new chop that just finished, resulting in a 1t worker:

Spoiler I love to whip :

Keep in mind here that Amsterdam currently has 1 base hammer in that city (yeah it does have 4 base hammers if it works the horses again. But the point is maybe 4 to 5 base hammers at max this early. We just generated 59 pure hammers in one turn from that whip and chop. THAT is how you win this game.

oh..uploaded the save that turn so you can look at things more closely

 

[Xzight]

Thank you so much Lymond! That is a lot of information and you perfectly answered my question about the pre chop. However, it does appear I have screwed up the timings in my game...settler is getting ready to pop on turn 43 with no whip and I am still size 3. I was trying to setup that really nice whip you had where you got the worker from OF but I messed it up somewhere.

Spoiler :

Edit: I tried again and after building settler my 3rd worker will pop on turn 47. I am at 4 size but still haven't had a good chance to whip because chops have been doing all the work...

Spoiler :

2nd Edit: Ok, I continued a few more turns on my first attempt (settler pop on 43 still size 3) and ended up in a very similar position to Lymond...so I think I am okay?

Spoiler :

 

[lymond]

Well, that is fine. Really not as much concerned about detail specifics on what turn what is finished on, rather more concerned with demonstrating and having you practice the mechanics. Either way, the point is that you produced the settler faster with chops. Likewise you could have done so with a whip. Instead you whipped a 3rd worker, which is fine. With the chop ready next turn, you can put that into a new settler with also the OF from the worker you just whipped. I think 1E of the copper is a good position for next city.

Make sure you are switching tiles in cities so that best tiles are worked. Utrecht should take the horses this turn. Also, even if working unimproved tiles make sure you are worker the best unimproved tiles....if city is growing max food, if stalling max hammers and/or food.

As a sidenote, BAT on install seems to install the infinite unit build in cities. You will notice that when you queued the warriors that there is a * by it i the queue. That means the city will build them indefinitely, at least until you add something else. I recommend disabling that setting. Click on the green bug button in the top right. Go to the City Screen tab and you should see the setting at the bottom right of that screen. Uncheck it.

 

[Gumbolt]

I think the key thing here is the chops don't have to go into the settler. If you have 69 hammers in a settler at size 4 put the chops into a worker.

Ideally for a 2 pop whip for max overflow you want 30+1 hammers left in build. For 3 pop whip you want 39 hammers into the build.

Timing of chops and switching of production is key. Do all the chops need to go to your capital. Whichever city own the tile will get the hammers from the chop.

 

[Xzight]

UPDATE

Spoiler :

Rotterdam settled on T:49. Seems like a really good start to me so far. 4 Cities before 2000bc all overlapping and with a lot of options for tile sharing. I haven't explored it yet on this play through, but I know there is fish food to the SW...how does that sound for a 5th city?

 

[Gumbolt]

Some thoughts.

You needed to be improve the corn and copper before you chop. Always have a plan for workers to move to new cities. Removing forest also causes more unhealthiness.I wonder if you had timed whips better you could of saved 1-2 forest here and avoided unhealthiness in Utrecht. Without the wheel not much you can do about this.
Lack of TW and Pottery will limit worker use here. Limited forest left to chop into libraries. So yes chop but leaving 2-3 can have some benefits. (Libraries and granaries.)
Rotterdam should be working corn. Utrecht can use the horse.
Why is Rotterdam size 1? Ideal whips are from size 4 to 2. Also 6-3 in size.
Get used to running science at 0% or 100%. This stop the game rounding science up or down. Which is usually not in your favour.
When you are fogbusting you generally want your warriors in the fog outside your borders. Barbs can appear in any fog tile.With creative border pops really do help.

On plus side you have 4 cities by 2000bc with 3 workers. Not bad for a first shadow.

 

[Xzight]

Okay I tried from T45 again and did not whip Amsterdam 2>1. 4th city settled on T51, is my situation better even though 4th city came 2 turn later? Utrecht was becoming unhappy on T46 so I would have to go back further than T45 if I want to fix that...do you think I should? Also maybe I shouldn't now be chopping that forest E of Utrecht...is it going to add to the unhappiness? I didn't know what else to do with that worker.

Spoiler :

 

[Gumbolt]

Yes jungle.no forest and lack of resources hooked up causes unhealthiness.
Each jungle adds 0.5 unhealthiness. Where forest removes 0.5.
So here you have 3 jungle in inner city ring so you lose 1.5 health. Rounded down to 1.
1 forest adds 0.5 health. Here you have 1 forest which is rounded down to 0. They always round down.
Overall 2 forest in it's inner ring would of helped. The one forest left adds nothing. If the jungle spreads you will have one more unhealthiness in city. Which will cost you 2 food per turn.

I would of left the forest between the 2 corns. Perhaps used worker for the corn instead.

So question is what is better city wise? 4 cities with unimproved resources. I note rotterdam has only just been settled. So maybe I judge harshly.

What did you whip from 2 pop to 1 pop in the capital? What sort of overflows have you been getting from your whips? There is no perfect way to play this game. I probably would of not realised about the forest had I not thought about it once I viewed your save.

With gold only +4 here you will need to find beakers from specialists to ensure you get TW/pottery. Coastal tiles are a great source of commerce so don't worry too much. So maybe Amsterdam should be running 1-2 coast tiles. Once you have roads you get trade routes too. Downside of avoiding coastal cities which just require culture.

This is also why you should save some forest for chops into builds like libraries. This ensures science keeps ticking over. Also you can 2 pop whip from 4-2 once you have 30 hammers in the build.

Settling the fish city could be good as this can also run sea commerce tiles.

Always be thinking about your empire.You have grabbed a lot of good land. You just need to plan your economy long term.

 

[Xzight]

It was a settler that I whipped in Amsterdam 2 pop to 1 pop. I am not sure which save is better...the one where I am at T49 with Amsterdam at 1 pop or the save at T51 with Amsterdam at 3 pop. On the T51 save I am close to 4 pop in Amsterdam and Utrecht which means I can do some 4>2 whips soon but the T49 save did expand 2 turns faster.

 

[lymond]

Yes, the 2>1 whip was not advisable especially in your cap. Generally rule is don't whip off premium tiles. If you need to adjust for growth due to happiness, adjust tiles between cities.

You might consider working a coastal tile when possible like in Dam for some extra commerce short term to speed income to finish Writing. The lack of trade routes are hurting a bit. In hindsight, maybe at least TW before writing would have been best. My fault there. Although I'd advised settling the spot Rotterdam is on first simply due to distance. (I'm just now realizing this is an Emperor game...for some reason I thought it was noble, probably confusing with someone else's game. So maintenance costs are higher than I had expected)

Probably want to hold off completing warrior builds in short term just to keep income up. Once Writing is in and TW later, you will recover nicely. Regardless, you've done a fine job expanding here even though maybe a couple of things could have been done better with the whip.

Not sure if you ever scouted SW in an iteration, but I believe your next best city is on the PH to the SW, which actually will be connected immediately with trade route due to culture borders over the coast to Dam. (there is fish down there)

On a bizarre note:

Spoiler :

I think enough turns have been played here to say this, but this continents map has left you with one AI only on your continent. I don't play Continents often, but I've never seen that before. That means the other 5 AIs are all on the other continent. It also means that you are essentially in semi-isolation with Sir Hammy. That presents some challenges from a learning perspective as well as simply in gameplay. But neither here nor there. You are learning the most important stuff at this point. I actually like Pangaea maps for learning.

 

[Xzight]

Okay on T54 utrecht and amsterdam grow to size 4...utrecht already has 30 production into a settler. Should I start a settler in both or just settler in utrecht and maybe worker in amsterdam? Also I feel I may have screwed up very bad because currently Utrecht is losing 3 food from unhealthiness...that's a lot!

Spoiler :

Edit: I guess turn 55 looks okay...however my workers are quickly running out of things to do I think I need TW and IW soon. Utrecht and The Hague can get a lot of production from IW right?

Should I settle on that PH SW next to the fish even though my settler is all the way in Utrecht or should I settle somewhere closer so settler doesn't waste so many turns walking?

Spoiler :

 

[Xzight]

Played to Turn 59 and settled Nijmegen...work boat will be ready in time for border pop. Amsterdram and Utrecht are both recovering from the whip pretty quickly. I am farming tile NW of the copper to increase its growth rate since it is currently very slow.

Spoiler :

Edit: I just realized all my cities could work their own food resource tile so maybe the farm NW of copper isn't needed?

 

[Xzight]

Finally finished writing and started TW, but we have a problem in Utrecht. They are unhappy. I am sending a warrior there in 2 turns who will fix the problem Perhaps I should have done something differently? Let me know if I should go replay some turns I have no problem doing that...

Spoiler :

 

[Whisker]

On a bizarre note:

Spoiler :

I think enough turns have been played here to say this, but this continents map has left you with one AI only on your continent. I don't play Continents often, but I've never seen that before. That means the other 5 AIs are all on the other continent. It also means that you are essentially in semi-isolation with Sir Hammy. That presents some challenges from a learning perspective as well as simply in gameplay. But neither here nor there. You are learning the most important stuff at this point. I actually like Pangaea maps for learning.

Spoiler :

Depends on number of continents, but also size of the landmasses. If number of continents >2, this is quite a common occuranre. Say 3 continents, 8 players nominal allocation is 3 3 2. Can happen with only 2 landmasses also, if other continent is much bigger. Also not sure how big an island is considered a continent, might be one of the AIs is in isolation with his/her own island.

One of my first forays on deity, I had quite a sizable island for myself with all the AIs on two large continents. I had barely strugled past middle ages when contact was finally made and I was instantly declared by three different AIs landing gunpowder units on my island at 600AD. I retreated back to safety of immortal for a quite a while after that.

 

[Pengu]

Normally on these maps I'd try to get astro quickly but there are a few challenges with this map specifically that makes that difficult

Spoiler reasons :

1. There are no happniess resources at ALL which is a bit crazy considering how big the continent is.
2. You have lots of food. Those 2 factors combined means that monarchy might be necessary. Otherwise you'll have way too much unhappiness.
Especially as you do not have access to neither stone nor marble, so no mids.
3. The continent is HUGE for only 2 civs which makes it hard not to expand otherwise Hammy might get 15 cities.
4. one thing that definately doesn't help is the low amount of commerce.

 

[Gumbolt]

@ Pengu - Can you not see the sugar? I think there will be other resources but clearly not a huge amount.
Commerce is not a big issue for a financial AI. TC wonder makes coastal tiles 2f4c.

In terms of game. A city at size 4 without a defender is usually unhappy. If you over whip then it will be unhappy at size 2-3 pending on happiness resources and whip anger. So timing whips in peace time can be important.

Corn city down south could be nice with a lighthouse. Commerce tiles to help economy.

You don't need defenders in size 1 cities. Save them for the larger cities. Once you have pottery keep expanding more. If you stop expanding Hammy will grab more land. You will need some coastal cities too.

 

[Pengu]

@ Gumbolt -

Spoiler map :

I played the game and no, the sugar is the only luxury resource on the entire continent...

 

[Xzight]

Played to turn 73 and settled 2 more cities but now I am losing 5 gold per turn...I am not 100% sure if Middelburg is a good city because of the distance and it might not overlap but there is a river with floodplains and a pig resource. Also room to settle another city to grab the copper and share the pig however I will need a way to deal with the barbarians who settled over here.

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

 

[krikav]

I like middleburg, awesome city and since you are cre, that barb city is likely to flip before Hammy takes it with units. I would prioritize getting a library up there early for that reason.
Mastricht in the south is placed ackward imho. I would have placed it 2N from it's current location if I wanted a city with good long term prospects. )Less maitenence, grabs all useful tiles on that peninsula, corn in first ring, citytile will be able to spread irrigation to the corn at CS (if desirable)).
But likely 3N is even better. (That city could borrow pigs and would thus get a very quick start.=
What is your reasoning around placing it there?

You have managed to expand and build settlers at a very good pace here, great job!
However, you have done a great mistake that you have done this before pottery is in, and now you will have more difficulties digging yourself out of the economic hole you find yourself in.

Getting more cities earlier is almost always adviceable, but the pace was abit too quick here. Mastricht doesn't contribute anything critical right now, and the location is well protected from Hammy who will in no way contest you for that spot. Therefor, that location should probably have waited.
Middleburg serves a good purpose of grabbing that juicy river in the direction toward hammy, and it adds the possibility of cultureconquest of that barb city. So that city I think is acceptable to settle.

In this situation you have to stop settle all cities, work all commerce tiles you can (unimproved financial coast is really decent!) to reach pottery asap, and then workers should spam cottages in such a way that almost all cities can in some way help with the empires current dire need to solve the economic crisis.

 

[Xzight]

Okay cool I thought Middelburg looked pretty good! What did you mean by the barb city is likely to "flip"?

Ah, that is my mistake on Maastricht...it was recommended that I build a city near that corn for the water tiles with a lighthouse. I wasn't sure on which tile to settle but I figured I would try to get the corn and as many water tiles as I could to help with commerce. I can definitely see how sharing the pigs would be better though and that I should have waited to settle Maastricht because my economy is hurting badly...I may go back to my previous update (T62) and see what I can do differently.