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England

Discussion in 'Leader Balance' started by Funak, Jun 24, 2015.

  1. lunker

    lunker Warlord

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    Since I play with 15 civ, 30 CS, the instant yields from White Tower are definitely OP but I didn't want to say anything since 30 CS might be a little much. I think that's what I would target for re balancing if it were me. I think the early spy is too strong only because election rigging is too strong and would rather nerf that than nerf England's spygame.
     
  2. Kim Dong Un

    Kim Dong Un The One & Unly Supporter

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    I'm pretty sure the Breacher promo is kind of useless for the Ship of the Line because you're using ranged attack, therefor it doesn't register the extra adjacency damage as if it were a melee kill.
     
  3. Kim Dong Un

    Kim Dong Un The One & Unly Supporter

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    Here's an example:

    The frigate adjacent to the corvette I'm about to kill has 41 hp.
    Spoiler :
    Screenshot (206).png
    Now I've killed the corvette, yet the adjacent frigate with 41 still has 41 hp, when it should've taken damage from the Breacher promotion...
    Spoiler :
    Screenshot (207).png
    Me thinks that the Ship of the Line needs a new promo.
     
  4. Favorius

    Favorius I am not a Chief!

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    I am currently playing large map, 10 civs, 20 CSs. I was neighbouring a friendly Babylon and even before White Tower I was already tech leader, thanks to careful planning grabbed Oracle in medieval era. After WT, all the gold and science every 20 turns was absurd and to admit, not fun. Currently game is closing to end, I dominate world congress as well as being 10 techs ahead of the competition. Looks like I am about to get my second deity victory in my VP career.
     
    JamesNinelives likes this.
  5. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 King

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    "Ship of the Line gets Splash II for free instead of Indomitable"

    I keep seeing this change mentioned and would like to where it came from and it's reasoning.
     
    JamesNinelives likes this.
  6. azum4roll

    azum4roll Emperor

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    That's all mine. To make Logistics at tier 5 for naval ranged for the bombardment side, it has to use Indomitable as a prerequisite. And because of that, Ship of the Line just can't have Indomitable, or they get access to Logistics right away.

    So no, it's not related to England at all, just a side effect of trying to balance Logistics and the ranged promotion trees.
     
  7. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN King

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    The current rebalancing of the naval ranged promotion tree is in a good place. Logistics is now a lvl 5 promo, and accessible by both promotion lines. Unfortunately, logistics is gated behind indomitable, which Ships of the Line get for free. England on the current patch thus has access to logistics again instantly, which we decided previously was overpowered. (The AI is easily conquering cities with logistics Ships of the Line, so yeah, it is.)

    Splash II was suggested as an alternative promotion for Ships of the Line to get instead of Indomitable. Thoughts?
     
  8. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Splash II is fine by me, I like splash damage on naval ships a lot, naval battles tend to be large masses of ships, splash damage tends to get a lot of value.
     
  9. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    I've always seen SotL as a premier naval unit, maybe give it splash 1+2 if not too OP?
     
  10. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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  11. azum4roll

    azum4roll Emperor

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    Ranged Naval can't get Splash 2 by promotion. Only Siege can.
     
  12. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

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    I think Splash II is fine, Splash I + II is also fine, I don't think it would be quite enough to push England to OP, and the SotL I feel is a fairly iconic unit that should be powerful.
     
    ElliotS likes this.
  13. azum4roll

    azum4roll Emperor

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    Of course, I'm open to a new promotion that gives +25% defense AND some splash damage. As long as it doesn't make it too OP.
     
    ElliotS likes this.
  14. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    proposal for changing the White Tower to an Ironworks replacement

    UNW - White Tower (replaces Ironworks):
    available at Machinery
    requires Forge
    +10 for :c5production: Production, +2 :c5culture: Culture, +2 :c5science: Science, +2 :c5gold: Gold
    +3:c5strength: City Defense
    +3 :c5culture: Culture to all Castles and Constabularies on Empire
    25 :c5science: Science for every building :c5production: Construction in this city.
    Contains 1 :greatwork: great work of art/artifact slot, which comes filled with the :greatwork:Crown Jewels great work
    25 :c5science:science and :c5gold:gold when you perform an Advanced Action, steal a Great Work or Technology, complete a City-State coup or Election Rigging, or kill a foreign Spy in this City, scaling with Era.
    -1:c5unhappy:from Distress in this City.

    this resolves the issue where the NIA’s boosts are way too strong for a medieval building, and so England has to make do with a UNW that is actually 1/2 as powerful as the base building to compensate for it coming so early. If the spy action bonuses are in addition to a base building’s normal use, then we can set the numbers to whatever is fair without regard for the base building.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2020
  15. Napoleon Blownaparte

    Napoleon Blownaparte Chieftain

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    I'd like it if the iron granted by ironworks is also granted by the revised UNW, unless that has already been changed and I'm just behind. I'm also curious - with this iteration of the White Tower would you be able to stack its benefits with the NIA later in the game? I like stuff like that. Edit: sorry I'm dumb, removed the science bit
     
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  16. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

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    Constabulary, Armory and Castle culture is all +1 right now and the yields from stealing etc. is 20 Gold/Science, are you sure you wanna buff them?

    I like the idea of making it into an Ironworks replacement though.
     
  17. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    The wiki is out of date. I was pulling old numbers off. That only reiterates my point though; this UNW has gone through 3 rounds of nerfs, putting it at 1/5 the power of the base national wonder just to try to balance it.

    More importantly, the White Tower needs to do something other than give +1 spy. Having 3 spies in Renaissance that act 25% faster while everyone else has 1 is the thing that launches England ahead. ignoring the lead in levels your spies have, that is still 3.75x the amount of spy actions for an entire era. Making the White tower's base building something other than the NIA releases the wonder from having to grant that third spy, and lets it stack with the NIA later, instead of giving a gimped NIA extremely early.

    UNW - White Tower (replaces Ironworks):
    available at Machinery
    requires Forge
    +10 for :c5production: Production, +2 :c5culture: Culture, +2 :c5science: Science, +2 :c5gold: Gold
    +3:c5strength: City Defense
    +2 Iron Resources
    +3 :c5culture: Culture to all Castles and Constabularies on Empire
    Contains 1 :greatwork: great work of art/artifact slot, which comes filled with the :greatwork:Crown Jewels great work
    25 :c5science: Science for every building :c5production: Construction in this city, scaling with Era.
    20 :c5science:science and :c5gold:gold when you perform an Advanced Action, steal a Great Work or Technology, complete a City-State coup or Election Rigging, or kill a foreign Spy in this City (+5:c5gold:/:c5science: for Advanced Actions), all scaling with Era.
    -1:c5unhappy:from Distress in this City.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2020
    ElliotS and Drakle like this.
  18. Melchizedek

    Melchizedek Warlord

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    England isn't OP in my games. I think White Tower is a potent building but am not sure England taken as a whole is too strong. There are lots of UAs/UBs/UUs in the game that could seem OP if considered by themselves and without remembering how strong the others civs are.
     
  19. youngsteve

    youngsteve Warlord

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    Just starting playing England again after many years & it has certainly changed. People keep saying it is so OP yet most games it always seems to get crushed & is never a world threat. Also, what has happened to the SOTL, which used to be ace with being able to fire twice in a turn, extra movement & sight, & moving after firing. Now it seems to be a buffed up Frigate, with little extra power, does have nice promotion, but extra sight is lost on upgrade. Haven't got to building them yet, but there is no mention of being able to move after firing anymore. Is this true? I know they have all this spying abilitiy, but not really sure how this White Tower performs. Spectatularly according to comments on here, though never seems to help AI England. Mind you they are never a force by that time, if even still around..
     
  20. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    Yeah I'd still like to see SotL get buffed to splash 1+2. It's supposed to be an iconic unit dangit!
     

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