[BNW] Enjoyable Deity Games

[beetle]

Thanks very much @Nizef! I will also report back on my first 50 moves on 6/10.

I have played a dozen turns, and yes, it is a fantastic map. But next time, since I am so very greedy, for Netherlands I want coast and flood plains (or marsh) in the starting screen shot.

I have taken the liberty to attach T0 thumbnail, since one of the things I enjoy is the pre-opening speculation and discussion of plans…

SIP. Just going for four-city Tradition SV. Unless circumstances dictate something more imaginative.

 

[mbbcam]

@vadalaz I've been reflecting on your reflections on Honor, and thinking that perhaps where I have failed in the past is by trying to adopt a "failsafe" strategy rather than going full out conquest. You seen to have fully committed to Honor (in your Carthage game) whereas I often seem to divide my attention by also trying to look after culture, science, etc., in case the conquest stalls, which it inevitably does, because I am not focusing on getting it done. Moreover, I usually fail tactically because I am too nervous about losing units. The idea of using support units with Medic promotions is one that had not really occurred to me. I will have to try that, too.

Thanks again.

 

[Tiberiu]

I have finished my first 50 turns of the game. I'll think about future plans until everybody finishes. I can't wait to see how everybody plays. I tried to make the text more interesting by highlighting stuff with bold text or colors (techs - blue, policies - purple, etc)

Spoiler turn 50 :

Turn 0: I want my capital on a hill so I moved, but seeing the coast put me in a tough choice. I decide to waste 2 more turns to go on the Gold and have a coastal capital. A bit of gambling here, but the start is good enough to afford some risk. I send my warrior to the east.

Turn 3: 1)Pottery. Settling city. Warrior finds +1 pop ruin. Great for recovering the lost time. I want TOA but I think the risk is too much and I would look bad to fail it. I play it safe and go for a shrine instead. With 2 fish a fast lighthouse should be nice, too.

Turn 6: Warrior finds map ruin in the marsh, what a bummer. At least I see Almaty and Milan are around. I guess I'll go take their gold to buy one more scout to compensate for the terrible warrior scouting.

Turn 8: Scout finds one more fish and sees a ruin. Great. Hopefully I'll get it. With 3 fish I now like my initial gambling. I start work on the second scout.

Turn 9: 1)Tradition opener. Scout gets culture ruin!

Turn 11: 2)Mining is next to connect Gold. Pottery finishes and I switch production to shrine before finishing second scout, keeping one citizen unemployed for a small production boost. Scout sees one ruin.

Turn 12: Useless barb ruin. whatever. At least warrior sees one more ruin and the purple borders of some CS. Hopefully it could be Kathmandu for a quicker pantheon. I'll have to waste turns in rough terrain for the ruin, first. With city having grown, I decide to buy a "plains" tile towards the salt. This cuts 1 turn from shrine.

Turn 13: Scout runs into barbs, the mystery CS expanded borders towards warrior and I can see it's only Sidon but the game doesn't consider we have met and I don't get their gold yet.

Turn 14: +1 pop ruin! great. Pop 4 already.

Turn 15: Scouts sees a ruin and a mountain that looks as if it has Rock of Gibraltar near. Hopefully it's not wishful thinking.

Turn 16: I meet Sidon which has Samurai so Japan's not in the game. I am thinking of going for Pyramids now since Japan is one of the few civs who likes to built it often. I buy 1 salt tile.

Turn 17. 3)Masonry. 2)Liberty Opener. Shrine finishes, Mining finishes. Scout finds weapon upgrade ruin and confirms the Rock of Gibraltar. I decide to gamble for Pyramids.

Turn 19: Second scout finishes and I send it to meet Almaty and steal their worker. One more fish is revealed! I am thinking of rushing a normal lighthouse now, but I'd feel bad about taking Liberty opener for no reason then. I'll build a monument. If I get Pyramids the delay is worth it. Warrior heading back home.

Turn 20: Scarcher meets Vilnius.
Turn 21: Scout meets Almaty. Korea is not in the game. Good. I buy one more Salt tile.
Turn 23: Scarcher finds a ruin! alas, it was only a map ruin which reveals snow to the north. Almaty has no worker and I send Scout back home to defend from barbs.

Turn 25: Monument finishes. I'll get one turn of granary production.

Turn 26: 4)Animal Husbandry. I am the first to a pantheon. How fortunate. I would like Desert Folklore for immediate faith opportunity or Dance of the Aurora for future faith yields. However in the end I decide for God-King since it increases my chances to catch Pyramids. I am having second thoughts about the whole Pyramids idea now as it created this unnecessary need for compromise. Work on Pyramids started.
Warrior is keeping tabs on Almaty and Milan waiting for a worker. Scarcher sees another ruin. I will take it with the other scout hoping for the weapon upgrade. It seems we are on an island.

Turn 27: 3)Liberty worker policy taken. Improving the desert salt immediately. I use worker to see if Milan has a worker and he does. I would rather wait more for Almaty, Milan would be good to ally.
I am using Scarcher and Scout to fight barbs. Need few more xp for Scout to have 1 promotion before taking ruin.

Turn 31: 5)Bronze working. Animal Husbandry finishes, . Unfortunately no horses in my capital. Capital grows to 5 pop. Stagnation for maximum production. 14 turns until Pyramids but worker will cut 2 forests next.

Turn 32: Almaty finally gets a worker and I move warrior to capture it next turn. I am thinking of staying at war with Almaty in order to try to promote some ranged naval units on it.

Turn 33: Scout finds 60 faith in the ruin. Not great but not bad either. I am now pretty sure I will have a religion. Stole worker and staying at war with Almaty for a while.

Turn 35: Great Library goes, I get a small jumpscare. I buy a forest for 105 and move my worker in it.
Turn 36: Stonehenge goes.

Turn 38: 6)Sailing. Bronze Working finished. No iron in capital, whatever.
Turn 39: Second pantheon goes. (+1 culture from jungle)
Turn 41: 4)Liberty +1 production bonus. I build the 1)Pyramids! Having 4 workers feels nice, I can start improving stuff now. Building Granary and focusing food again.

Turn 45: 7)Optics Sailing finished.

Turn 46: granary finishes, I am tempted to gamble for Mausoleum of Helicarnassus. With no Marble or stone, I decide against it eventually. I will try The Great Lighthouse instead. Building Trireme now.

Turn 48: Temple of Artemis goes. If only I knew it would go so late...
Turn 49: Third pantheon goes. (+1 faith from tundra)
Turn 50: Population 6. Mausoleum of Helicarnassus goes, I am relieved I didn't try for it. An English scout comes and finds us. I am not so sure about the Great Lighthouse now. It's probably a better idea to just caputure it from England, especially since I see Elizabeth has Stonehenge. The first trireme is out and I send it to the west. I exchange Salt for Silver to bring the golden age closer. I also prepare to pre-cut a few forests nearby, leaving them at 1-turn left. Building another worker. Milan gave camp quest and warrior is close to it, that's great news. I'll pledge to protect Milan.

 

[Tiberiu]

I can't find the post but there was recent discussion about Cover promotion not working right vs cities. Much thanks to vadalaz for this information. I was shocked to find out as I used to take cover often on ranged units.

Today I also discovered that apparently fortification bonus is useless too, in the same fashion. I am still hoping this is somehow just a display issue but evidence points out to it being faulty code aka bugs.

look at these 2 screens from a game where I am able to attack 2 longbowmen, one has Cover 2 and +40% fortification while the other one has only cover 1 and no fortification. And yet, I can deal exactly 51 to both of them, and their stats are identical (22.5 instead of 18 because the hill bonus applies to them)

Did you guys know about this? Am I missing something?

Spoiler fortification bugged example :

 

[vadalaz]

@vadalaz I've been reflecting on your reflections on Honor, and thinking that perhaps where I have failed in the past is by trying to adopt a "failsafe" strategy rather than going full out conquest. You seen to have fully committed to Honor (in your Carthage game) whereas I often seem to divide my attention by also trying to look after culture, science, etc., in case the conquest stalls, which it inevitably does, because I am not focusing on getting it done. Moreover, I usually fail tactically because I am too nervous about losing units. The idea of using support units with Medic promotions is one that had not really occurred to me. I will have to try that, too.

Thanks again.

You're welcome!

It's tough to balance infrastructure and army, especially early on. With Honor it feels like you have to be very efficient with your build orders and combat. There's no time to waste on building workers or too many settlers, so I've started stealing from AIs again and I'm now reluctant to build more than 2 settlers pre-NC. Perhaps on a Huge map I'd build 3 or 4.

Combat efficiency comes down to playing carefully, planning ahead and making sure that your units are never idle and always have something useful to do. And you're right to worry about losing units. I think getting heavily-promoted veterans is one of the main reasons to go Honor. The other reason is to get lots of Great Generals. Citadels are fantastic and they will win you wars.

@Tiberiu, very interesting, I didn't know this. I've just tested it in a hotseat game with random seed on and I can confirm fortifying doesn't actually defend ranged units from city fire. Fortified archer took just as much damage as the other one. And apparently bonus vs barbs from difficulty level also doesn't work when your cities shoot a ranged barb unit. Barb archer took the same damage too.

 

[Mizzenmast]

@Tiberiu – I was so pleased to see you comment and decide to play a game! Your guide on here is an outstanding work of recent “scholarship” on an older game. Not only for illuminating the simple, but well-hidden and extremely abusable mechanic of GPT-based tributing, but some of your finer points have really stuck with me as well, like the overall acceptability of using Liberty finisher for a Great Prophet (which I may do in this Dutch game), and maxing production to get the earliest possibly Shrine (which I didn’t do in this game, but perhaps should have.) Thank you for your contribution, and your effort in this write-up, which is a great insight into your decisions and what you passively observe. For example, you realized that

Spoiler :

the military CS’s units exclude those civs’ presence in the game, and it even factored into your Pyramids-building decision, which paid off.

This was a great refresher to me, I had forgotten that you can make that inference.

As for the failure of ranged fortification, that is also news to me and very disappointing! Kudos for finding it. Like the many other combat/promotion-based bugs, I will just try to remember this one and work around it. However I like to keep a positive mindset about these bugs (in which I also categorize the regular failure of peace-deal cities to get any yields from their center tile, which is happening in my other game) and view them as an extra challenge towards a conquest-based strategy that reflects the unpredictability/false intel/crappiness of real war. The peace deal cities are still usually worth it!

 

[Mizzenmast]

Here are my own first 50 turns of the Netherlands game #147:

Spoiler Netherlands Edge 147 0-50 :

T0: Send my Settler left and my Warrior right. I just decided I wanted to settle coastally this game, and experience a challenging game if my capital sucked, so I sent the Settler down the river that I suspected was closest to the ocean.

T1: Settler finds map ruin

T2: Found Amsterdam on a coastal tundra, Warrior grabs culture ruin. Monument first, because I will be able to get a fast Liberty settler.

T5: Find Gibraltar, get Spearman upgrade.

T7: Take Liberty, get Pop ruin.

T10: Start a Worker

T12: 2nd culture ruin, take Liberty +1 production

T15: Meet Milan first

T16: Meet Almaty first, Amsterdam grows to 3, purchase and work a Deer tile that shows I have gems in range.

T22: Steal worker from Almaty

T26: Get Liberty Settler, immediately send him in the path of a barbarian camp because I neglected to radar.

T27: Meet Sidon first.

T28: I manage to retrieve my Settler almost immediately by luring the brute to capture my CS worker after he returns to camp:

T30: Amsterdam grows to 4 and I start a Settler.

T33: I recapture my lost worker with the help of 2 scouts and a heal upgrade.

T34: Unlock a marginally useful map reveal; it reveals a ton of blank ocean, but 1 single, faraway tile of white on red…. England is in the game! I am already thinking of stealing her ships-of-the-line with my fancy privateers.

T39: Get a pantheon. I see the opportunity for fast tile acquisition against the southern, marsh-laden city-states via Sacred Path, and I take it, although there are many good options.

T44: Found Utrecht and Rotterdam.

T45: Found Groningen.

The idea with these cities is that, by getting them up early, working jungle culture, building Monuments first, grabbing Tradition opener in 6 turns, and their close placement to both each other & the CS’s, they will eventually gobble up the majority of Polder tiles, and other good tiles, without excessive gold purchasing on my part. I will keep the jungles up for a while, but probably not forever, especially the river ones. The early culture toward both borders and early Liberty finisher are the main attraction; the Liberty GP may be a Prophet. That Yucatan-shaped city will be especially questionable in the late game, but there is just something about it – I had to settle! With 4/4 coastal cities so far I am definitely committed to splashing Exploration.

T49: Steal 2nd worker from Almaty

T50: Found Breda. I’m stopping at 5 initial cities, though there are other semi-attractive opportunities for later like an isthmus city on the Deer. But I will have to wait to meet others and use my Dutch UA to get my happiness up, especially since it up to the wind whether I get a good religion/Pagodas/etc in my cities while still in the early eras. I’m glad I haven’t met anyone else yet, it has allowed me to rapidly expand without penalties.

Techs: Mining, Pottery, Animal Husbandry, Bronze Working, Trapping, Sailing
Capital Build Order: Monument, Worker, Shrine, Scout x2, Settlers x3, Scout, Worker

 

[mbbcam]

making sure that your units are never idle and always have something useful to do

This is something I also fail at. I often have units standing around idle. I often run into problems of line of sight with hills in the way or other obstructions. Or enemy cities are positioned so that you can get shot at from two directions. They can be hard problems to solve.

Meanwhile, in my latest experiment, it is T170, I have captured only three cities, and Bismarck is ten techs ahead. Spain is settling every scrap of land it can find. It will be a long haul ...

 

[Mizzenmast]

You're welcome!

It's tough to balance infrastructure and army, especially early on. With Honor it feels like you have to be very efficient with your build orders and combat. There's no time to waste on building workers or too many settlers, so I've started stealing from AIs again and I'm now reluctant to build more than 2 settlers pre-NC. Perhaps on a Huge map I'd build 3 or 4.

Combat efficiency comes down to playing carefully, planning ahead and making sure that your units are never idle and always have something useful to do. And you're right to worry about losing units. I think getting heavily-promoted veterans is one of the main reasons to go Honor. The other reason is to get lots of Great Generals. Citadels are fantastic and they will win you wars.

@Tiberiu, very interesting, I didn't know this. I've just tested it in a hotseat game with random seed on and I can confirm fortifying doesn't actually defend ranged units from city fire. Fortified archer took just as much damage as the other one. And apparently bonus vs barbs from difficulty level also doesn't work when your cities shoot a ranged barb unit. Barb archer took the same damage too.

View attachment 599070 View attachment 599071 View attachment 599072

This is something I also fail at. I often have units standing around idle. I often run into problems of line of sight with hills in the way or other obstructions. Or enemy cities are positioned so that you can get shot at from two directions. They can be hard problems to solve.

Meanwhile, in my latest experiment, it is T170, I have captured only three cities, and Bismarck is ten techs ahead. Spain is settling every scrap of land it can find. It will be a long haul ...

This extended discussion of Honor is great, it is a really challenging tree to approach, and I wanted to contribute my own thoughts. Honor usually goes two ways in a game you continue to play: You begin to fight asap (but don’t necessarily build up the strength to take cities for some time), and eventually you do take cities, and you continue the assault, and power through the map this way with cumulative upgrades on veteran core. Or, there are times like in the Shoshone report @vadalaz recently shared where you find yourself combat-stalled without a choice because of ocean, or an AI has too-strong cities, or you have to use your current army to defend your previous holdings, etc. This situation is interesting to me because if you have acquired a large empire I think it is still strong and playable, and quite fun, if you enjoy a long game. It looks the “worst” when you have just stopped the fighting and have Honor filled out and little else, and begins to look progressively better as you build infrastructure and backfill with policies from Tradition/Liberty (or Rationalism, etc, but I would usually focus on happiness policies instead to allow for the biggest late-game reservoir when it’s time to conquer again). Eventually you will grow to a size and power, somewhere around the early/mid-200’s, that a giant, late-game domination push on multiple fronts begins to assert itself naturally, with all the benefits of Honor. The most crucial thing is that you have invested in slowing the game down during this build-up, by bribing the other civs to betray their friends and break research agreements, and never signing agreements of your own. (You don’t have to war them to get your gold back, the price is usually still right without it.) The difference it makes in their performance is enormous. As an example, I am playing a Cultural run of that Shoshone map, but I have employed expensive bribes to break research agreements and foster widespread global hatred. At turn 240, I have only 65% of the tree unlocked, yet I am 1 in Literacy, and one civ has gone full Rationalism. In general, a lot of suboptimal early policy-paths, like we might sometimes think about opening with Honor when it doesn’t lead to a total snowball, can be transformed into strong games by a “low-and-slow” method like this that allows you the maximum amount of turns to round out your weaknesses, capitalize on earlier gains, make extra “good” moves, and employ large-scale military movements to take out rivals close to victory, or oppress everyone generally with war. Of course, many would hate that slog, and the win doesn’t come til t350-400!

So, I hope your "long-haul" game goes well, it is my favorite kind to see unfold.

 

[vadalaz]

My first 50 turns of #147:

Spoiler :

Moved the settler on riverside jungle hill first, saw coast and moved again. Settled off the river on a coastal jungle hill. I was disappointed when I saw that this spot didn't pick up Whales or the three Fish to the east, but Whales turned out to be a CS resource and I decided I'd just settle a city for the triple Fish later.

Ruins: 100 gold, Animal Husbandry, map, 60 gold, 20 culture, Writing, 2 -> 3 pop, Scarcher, 20 faith on turn 33
Tech: Pottery - [AH and Writing ruins] - Mining - Archery - Bronze Working - Masonry - Calendar - Trapping
BO: 2x Scout - Monument - Shrine - Granary - [purchased Worker] - Archer - Archer - Library - Settlers - [Spearman gift from Sidon]
Social policies: Tradition opener - Liberty to Collective rule.

England and Indonesia both went Liberty so I didn't try for Pyramids. It went on turn 38 in my game.

I met Indonesia pretty early with my initial warrior and DoWed them to pillage their internal trade route. I parked my warrior outside their borders and waited for a potential worker steal, but the opportunity didn't arise. Leaving the warrior there still proved useful though, because Gajah sent a settler with a single warrior escort in my direction. With a bit of help from the local barbs, I stole this settler.



Scouting has been slow because I still need all my units at home to deal with the barbs.

I picked Dance of the Aurora as my pantheon. I'm thinking 6-7 city Liberty here, with 2 more cities being on that inland sea.



Still at war with Indonesia and Almaty. I'll need lots of workers here.

 

[mbbcam]

The most crucial thing is that you have invested in slowing the game down during this build-up, by bribing the other civs to betray their friends and break research agreements, and never signing agreements of your own.

Many thanks for your contribution, and I think the above is a particularly valuable observation. It is yet another thing that I fail at, because I get too fixated on other aspects of the game. I think you have to get the timing right, and pick the right people to bribe. If you don't, you can find that you have paid some Civ to take over the world and build into a monster!

Your observations about happiness are also interesting, and I find it is one of the main reasons that I try to complete Commerce. But getting enough Culture to get policies is expensive in time, hammers, or gold in the games I play.

 

[mbbcam]

I've read the reports on the Dutch game with interest, and it occurred to me that it might be interesting to record what the AIs do, as well. Not everything, of course, but I have been struck by how different games can be when the AIs choose different Policy trees. I've just been re-playing one of my games several times, and there is a huge difference between having Babylon as a neighbour with Honor, and the same Civ with Piety. Whether or not some Civs go Liberty also seems to make quite a difference. Just a thought. Might be worth comparing.

 

[Nizef]

Since many of you already reported on #147, I will go ahead an share my "achievements" for turns 0-50 already today. So here we go:

Spoiler :

t0 SIP and "astonishingly" starting on a Scout.
t2 First ruin and I got 20 culture.
t5 Second ruin / Unit upgrade to Spearman. Scout done and I start on another one.
t7 Third ruin / 85 gold.
t8 Cap is pop2.
t10 Pottery done, start on Mining. Second Scout done, start on a Shrine.
t12 First pantheon (Jungle tiles) goes. Fourth ruin / Archery.
t13 First "real" decision, should I go Liberty or Tradition? I opt for Tradition to the "surprise" of all readers and open Oligarchy.
t14 I meet Indonesia.
t17 Fifth ruin / Scarcher upgrade. Shrine is done. Start on Worker.
t18 Mining done. Start on AH.
t19 Sixth ruin / Useless map and seventh ruin / 75 gold.
t20 Cap is pop3 and switch to a Settler. I buy a Worker. Eighth ruin / +1 pop.
t21 Nineth ruin / another useless map.
t23 Indonesia got second pantheon (Goddess of protection).
t24 AH done. Start on Masonry.
t28 3rd policy / Legalism.
t29 1st Settler ready, starting on another.
t30 Steal a Worker from Vilnius, even if they are protected by Indonesia. I want to keep friendly relations with the three CS on my peninsula.
t33 Masonry done, start on Calendar.
t34 Founded Rotterdam two tiles from Gibraltar for a canal city. This was the spot that Gajah got in my first try.
t36 I got 3rd pantheon and took Earth Mother.
t38 2nd Settler ready. Amsterdam continues on the Worker.
t41 Calendar ready, starting on Trapping.
t42 Founded Utrecht.
t43 Worker ready. Start on Granary.
t44. 4th SP: Landed Elite.
t47 Amsterdam is pop5.
t48 Granary is done, start on Archer.
t49 Steal 2nd Worker from Vilnius.

I will grow unhappy in 3 turns but to counter this, Rotterdam will grow to the Sugar in 2 turns and Amsterdam to the Gold in 4 turns. Gajah might be a problem, he got ToA and is going full Liberty.

 

[beetle]

Follows are my T50 notes from #147 Netherlands.

• Only half us SIP! Three Salt and a river, seemed like a no-brainer to me!
• First expos all different!
• Pantheon all different! Again, there seemed to me a very obvious choice (Earth Mother).
• Not everyone settled the local NW.
• Only a couple of us settled a Polders expo.

I will post my T100 notes this time tomorrow.

Spoiler :

T000 SIP
T003 ruins gives AH
T010 ruins gives 20 Culture, open Tradition; Pottery unlocked, start Mining; 2nd Scout out, start Shrine
T011 ruins gives a map
T012 ruins upgrades Scout
T013 ruins gives Saiing
T017 Shrine done, starting worker; ruins gives a map
T021 meet Gajah
T041 take Earth Mother for Pantheon
T042 settle Rotterdam on mountain next to RoG
T049 settle Utrecht on hill in middle of swamp
T050 Rotterdam borders expand to RoG tile; unlock Monarchy, so now I am happy

 

[raider980]

I also finished the first 50 turns. Its so fascinating to see how different our games are already.

Spoiler :

My initial thoughts were this looks like a rough map. Only one lux in sight. And no marshes. But luckily on founding Amsterdam in place I see Gold.

T2. Meet Almaty.
T4. Ok, here be marshes!
T5. Warrior becomes spear with ruin.
T9. Meet Milan.
T11. Meet Sidon, 3rd CS that I'm the first to meet, that's a good sign.
T14. Wow, meet Vilinus first too.
T17. Meet Gada of Indonesia.
T22. Nice, Rock of Gibraltar and a Pop ruin.
T32. Settler, what to do, I decide I need to block Gada up north so will send my first two settlers to attempt to secure the northernmost locations.
T36. Start worshiping Earth Mother.
T45. Second Salt connected, Gada will only give me 6 gold, wtheck? Keep your gold.
T50. I still haven't met any other AI and I really need gold so here's my Salt Gada, you cheapskate.

Tech path: Pottery, AH, Mining, Archery, Writing, BW, working on Masonry.
Ruins, a lot!: War>Spear, Pop, Barbs, Map - actually kind of helpful, Gold, Culture, Pop.
Build Order: 2 Scouts, Monument, Shrine, Granary, Settler, Library, Settler, Caravan now.

Other highlights:

• Opened Tradition and by the time I was ready for my second SP I could see at least 6 city locations that I wanted. So even though I can never make Liberty work on Deity, I had to go Liberty.
• Stole worker from Almaty.
• I've only met one AI, Indonesia. I see from above England is in the game too, where I don't know.
• T50 I have 3 cities and a 4th Settler heading out. City locations were, as usual for me, dictated by luxes. I really wanted a city on that Sugar on the inland sea so I had to forgo a canal city because it was 3 tiles from the Sugar. Plus my city in the NE gets the crabs and a canal city wouldn't. I wanted to define my borders and block Gada so am founding the northernmost cities first and will back fill. Will found 2 cities to take advantage of the great marsh expanse. Plus one on the Gold to the SW and one on the west coast to get the Gems.
• Edit. Indonesia went Tradition in my game.

Spoiler T50 Map :

 

[beetle]

I can't find the post but there was recent discussion about Cover promotion not working right vs cities. Much thanks to vadalaz for this information. I was shocked to find out as I used to take cover often on ranged units.

Mid-game, my ranged units tend to die to GWB. Cover helps with that. Still, I don’t take cover before +1 range or logistics.

Today I also discovered that apparently fortification bonus is useless too, in the same fashion. I am still hoping this is somehow just a display issue but evidence points out to it being faulty code aka bugs.

It never would have occurred to me to fortify ranged units within bombard range of a city, since either they are shooting or withdrawing.

The other thing to be aware of is that if a unit does not move, it still get the fortification bonus, even if you picked idle/skip turn.

Did you guys know about this?

Yes, cover not helping ranged units against city bombard, has been long discussed.

 

[Tiberiu]

@Tiberiu – I was so pleased to see you comment and decide to play a game!

Thank you, you are very kind. And I am happy to see new people playing and sharing their strategy. I hope to create a strong empire. The map seems to allow us to employ our strategies without being hindered too much by other civs.

Spoiler about your 50 turns :

I loved your sacred path pantheon and forward settling the CSs to take land quickly. The AIs don't seem in a rush to have religions so hopefully you'll get your religion. If you don't get a religion, it won't look as good. The effect of many Polders mid-late game will be nice to see, and I am also curious how you'll proceed with the jungle.

I liked your analysis about how Honor games affects games and slows down the world and leads to a strong endgame. Saw some of my games happening like you said.

I have not yet found a way to fully complete Honor thinking it's the best. That's because I either take only left side for generals and XP and take other policies elsewhere for growth and yields, or I go Superwide and I need (only) the happiness from Honor right side as bonuses from Tradition and Liberty are not enough. In both scenarios, before I am able to continue deeper in Honor Tree, it becomes the time to take an ideology and their tenets are better to take after that. Honor requires the player to play in a certain way to get the most of it, most of the bonuses are not passive ones, compared to Tradition and Liberty. I find it very useful and powerful in the right circumstances.

Mid-game, my ranged units tend to die to GWB. Cover helps with that. Still, I don’t take cover before +1 range or logistics.

During tougher wars and when getting new units that don't have time to get XP before engaging in combat, I like to put Cover on them. Even on Siege, sometimes. Hopefully it works correctly at least against air units. If I build a Gatling Gun and it gets out with only 30 XP, it will take ages until it gets to range or logistics. But a Cover promotion is useful immediately, that's my thinking. Otherwise, of course range+logistics is the way to go.

Yes, cover not helping ranged units against city bombard, has been long discussed.

I missed that discussion. To think of how many times I took it on Archers/Chariots to make them more survivable. Very disappointed in these bugs.

 

[Mizzenmast]

I think everyone who announced their participation has posted their first 50, so I am going to post my 50-100, but no rush to others, & newcomers can still hop on.

Spoiler Netherlands #147 50-100 :

T52: Get a 60 faith ruin in the north. It is also time to pick a policy, and I change paths from the options I was weighing (Tradition opener or continue Liberty) for Piety opener, because now I do feel compelled to build Shrines and try to get my own religion, and one of my expands has just finished its Monument. This has totally thrown off my long-term policy allocation but that’s OK. I decide to go wider than I was planning.

T53: Back to building Settlers. I might not found the cities right away, but I am already in unhappiness and that’s the best time to build them if you know you’ll need them eventually.

T55: Gajah scouts me. I sell him horses and my embassy, draining his meager gold. But I have 2 Salts, way more cities than him already, and need to settle a couple more, so I give him a Salt for free. I will be unable to defend against an early attack so I desperately want to not piss him off, he is often an aggressive pain. He has gone Liberty and built ToA.

T56: Friendship with the culture-state through a camp quest. Also, I notice, via my 1-tile view of the unknown English empire, that she has built the Great Wall.

T58: Meet Elizabeth, Salt for silver. She’s gone Tradition and built several good wonders.

T67: Take the +1 faith policy, found Nijmegen and the Hague. This triggers rapid expander hatred from England but not Indonesia that I can see, however Gajah is often deceptive. But I am more confused next turn when Elizabeth is “friendly” but still showing negative modifiers, perhaps she respects forward-settling deep down.

T77: 3rd worker steal from Almaty. No shame!

T79: England offers friendship right after sending me a Cargo ship, awesome. At this point I sell her one of my unique luxes for 240g, putting me at 2 more unhappy, but it is worth it because I need the gold to buy out my own Gems.

T82: I get 3rd religion, pick Tithe and Pagodas, and sell England my other unique lux for another 240g, to buy out my Dyes. I still have a lot of Gold so I buy out a few cheap marsh tiles against Milan, my plan to naturally take the marshes has not worked out as I hoped.

T83: Enter Classical through Philosophy, for Temples. Go back to Liberty and take Citizenship. Finish a cargo ship in the capital; the most lucrative routes are to England, but she is already my friend and Indonesia covets my lands, so I send it to Gajah. Thankfully he does offer friendship the turn after I send it.

T91: Found my 8th and final city, Haarlem. I now have three cities working mines and staying at 1 pop to quickly take up my religion.

T93: England founds a Monastery religion through Hagia Sophia.

T99: Send Elizabeth a Cargo ship.

T100: My religion has begun to spread. A B’horseman has just pillaged my dyes. Just waiting on RNG to get that 2nd prophet! Set to open Exploration soon with my 7th policy as I finish Theology.

Meanwhile, the AIs are developing rapidly. Liberty Indonesia has 8 cities to match mine, and ToA and Colossus. England is strong in a different way, she only has 3 cities, but has finished Tradition and has 2 in Patronage, and 6 wonders (G Lighthouse, G Wall, Oracle, H Gardens, H Sophia, Mausoleum.) I am definitely going to rush Compass and get some Galleasses training for a skilled navy to terrorize one or both of them later on, after I have other trading partners. And to defend myself!

What concerns me most is that the average Land score is already 772k to my 930k and the 1st place AI for all other demos is unknown. This means the civs are generally settling lots of cities and/or there may be a total runaway situation on another continent which I will further want a strong navy for. If it ends up a game where you have to slam into the biggest, faraway empire with a giant amphibious force by t200 to avoid a loss, that could be very challenging, but fun. With that in mind, I think I am going to start hoarding all my future gold for unit upgrades.

 

[beetle]

I am not sure that Cover not helping ranged units versus cities is a “bug” as it feels more like a balance patch to me.

If I build a Gatling Gun and it gets out with only 30 XP, it will take ages until it gets to range or logistics. But a Cover promotion is useful immediately, that's my thinking.

I can’t keep Gats alive, so I hardly build them, and if I do, it’s because I have Coastal cities dealing with Frigates and Ironclads. So Cover is not as immediately useful as doing more damage.

Did you see @Nizef Finland MIDGE game? The UU is a machine gun that can also melee. Great fun! (And the Cover promotion works!)

 

[beetle]

Follows are my T100 notes from #147 Netherlands. Can’t say I was the least bit tempted to try a Liberty play. I kind of wanted a fifth city to pick up the Dyes north, but expos all have weak production, and that spot was not great either.

Spoiler :

T055 settle Groningen on W coast
T065 ruins give 65 gold
T067 Elizabeth finds me
T075 Hanging Gardens goes
T080 I am at 200 faith
T087 GPr born finally, I was at 255 faith; walking to Rotterdam, since Holy Cities should be coastal
T091 found Protestantism with Religious Centers, buildings are gone
T095 miss Oracle by 7 turns
T096 use fail gold to buy Utrecht all the 3rd-ring marsh tiles
T097 ruins upgrades CB, so that is pretty sweet