Environment gets Bushed

[Ansar]

Any one one here that would like to have a discussion? The discussion by the way is not about how I post but the environment. It seems to hard for some people to stay on track and need to divert the discussion from the uncomfortable direction of how global warming is a bunch of crap and onto how some posters post.

Any one there who will debate the facts and not make personal attacks or attack the source or anything but the facts?

Having a discussion is kind of hard when you post in a manner that is hard to reply to and when you do posts like your previous one.

We'd love to discuss, but you need to make your posts easier to reply to. You say "it's not too much work..." to Erik, but then, why don't you do that bit of extra work and make your post easier to coherently reply to?

 

[Julian Delphiki]

Any one there who will debate the facts and not make personal attacks or attack the source or anything but the facts?

Yes, lets try some.

Spoiler :

Just a reminder that the following things are caused by global warming.:


Acne, agricultural land increase, Afghan poppies destroyed, Africa devastated, African aid threatened, Africa in conflict, aggressive weeds, air pressure changes, Alaska reshaped, Agulhas current moves, allergies increase, Alps melting, Amazon a desert, American dream end, amphibians breeding earlier (or not), anaphylactic reactions to bee stings, ancient forests dramatically changed, animals head for the hills, Antarctic grass flourishes, Antarctic ice grows, Antarctic ice shrinks, Antarctic sea life at risk, anxiety treatment, algal blooms, archaeological sites threatened, Arctic bogs melt, Arctic in bloom, Arctic ice free, Arctic ice melt faster, Arctic lakes disappear, Arctic tundra to burn, Atlantic less salty, Atlantic more salty, atmospheric circulation modified, attack of the killer jellyfish, avalanches reduced, avalanches increased, Baghdad snow, Bahrain under water, bananas grow, barbarisation, beer shortage, beetle infestation, bet for $10,000, better beer, big melt faster, billion dollar research projects, billion homeless, billions face risk, billions of deaths, bird distributions change, bird loss accelerating, bird visitors drop, birds confused, birds return early, birds driven north, bittern boom ends, blackbirds stop singing, blackbirds threatened, blizzards, blue mussels return, bluetongue, brains shrink, bridge collapse (Minneapolis), Britain Siberian, British gardens change, brothels struggle, brown Ireland, bubonic plague, budget increases, Buddhist temple threatened, building collapse, building season extension, bushfires, business opportunities, business risks, butterflies move north, camel deaths, cancer deaths in England, cannibalism, cataracts, caterpillar biomass shift, cave paintings threatened, childhood insomnia, Cholera, circumcision in decline, cirrus disappearance, civil unrest, cloud increase, cloud stripping, cockroach migration, coffee threatened, cold climate creatures survive, cold spells (Australia), cold wave (India), computer models, conferences, conflict, conflict with Russia, consumers foot the bill, coral bleaching, coral fish suffer, coral reefs dying, coral reefs grow, coral reefs shrink , coral reefs twilight, cost of trillions, cougar attacks, cradle of civilisation threatened, creatures move uphill, crime increase, crocodile sex, crops devastated, crumbling roads, buildings and sewage systems, curriculum change, cyclones (Australia), danger to kid's health, Darfur, Dartford Warbler plague, death rate increase (US), Dengue hemorrhagic fever, depression, desert advance, desert retreat, destruction of the environment, disappearance of coastal cities, diseases move north, Dolomites collapse, drought, ducks and geese decline, dust bowl in the corn belt, early marriages, early spring, earlier pollen season, Earth biodiversity crisis, Earth dying, Earth even hotter, Earth light dimming, Earth lopsided, Earth melting, Earth morbid fever, Earth on fast track, Earth past point of no return, Earth slowing down, Earth spins faster, Earth to explode, earth upside down, Earth wobbling, earthquakes, earthquakes redux, El Niño intensification, end of the world as we know it, erosion, emerging infections, encephalitis, English villages lost, equality threatened, Europe simultaneously baking and freezing, eutrophication, evolution accelerating, expansion of university climate groups, extinctions (human, civilisation, logic, Inuit, smallest butterfly, cod, ladybirds, pikas, polar bears, gorillas, walrus, whales, frogs, toads, plants, salmon, trout, wild flowers, woodlice, penguins, a million species, half of all animal and plant species, mountain species, not polar bears, barrier reef, leaches, tropical insects) experts muzzled, extreme changes to California, fading fall foliage, fainting, famine, farmers benefit, farmers go under, farm output boost, fashion disaster, fever,figurehead sacked, fir cone bonanza, fish catches drop, fish downsize, fish catches rise, fish deaf, fish get lost, fish stocks at risk, fish stocks decline, five million illnesses, flesh eating disease, flood patterns change, floods, floods of beaches and cities, flood of migrants, flood preparation for crisis, Florida economic decline, flowers in peril, food poisoning, food prices rise, food prices soar, food security threat (SA), footpath erosion, forest decline, forest expansion, frog with extra heads, frostbite, frost damage increased, frosts, fungi fruitful, fungi invasion, games change, Garden of Eden wilts, genetic diversity decline, gene pools slashed, giant oysters invade, giant pythons invade, giant squid migrate, gingerbread houses collapse, glacial earthquakes, glacial retreat, glacial growth, glacier grows (California), glacier wrapped, global cooling, global dimming, glowing clouds, god melts, golf Masters wrecked, Gore omnipresence, grandstanding, grasslands wetter, Great Barrier Reef 95% dead, Great Lakes drop, great tits cope, greening of the North, Grey whales lose weight, Gulf Stream failure, habitat loss, Hantavirus pulmonary syndrome, harmful algae, harvest increase, harvest shrinkage, hay fever epidemic, health affected, health of children harmed, heart disease, heart attacks and strokes (Australia), heat waves, hibernation affected, hibernation ends too soon, hibernation ends too late, HIV epidemic, homeless 50 million, hornets, high court debates, human development faces unprecedented reversal, human fertility reduced, human health improvement, human health risk, human race oblivion, hurricanes, hurricane reduction, hurricanes fewer, hurricanes not, hydropower problems, hyperthermia deaths, ice sheet growth, ice sheet shrinkage, ice shelf collapse, illness and death, inclement weather, India drowning, infrastructure failure (Canada), industry threatened, infectious diseases, inflation in China, insect explosion, insurance premium rises, Inuit displacement, Inuit poisoned, Inuit suing, invasion of cats, invasion of herons, invasion of jellyfish, invasion of midges, island disappears, islands sinking, itchier poison ivy, jellyfish explosion, jets fall from sky, jet stream drifts north, Kew Gardens taxed, kidney stones, killer cornflakes, killing us, kitten boom, koalas under threat, krill decline, lake and stream productivity decline, lake empties, lake shrinking and growing, landslides, landslides of ice at 140 mph, lawsuits increase, lawsuit successful, lawyers' income increased (surprise surprise!), lives saved, Loch Ness monster dead, lush growth in rain forests, Malaria, mammoth dung melt, mango harvest fails, Maple production advanced, Maple syrup shortage, marine diseases, marine food chain decimated, Meaching (end of the world), Mediterranean rises, megacryometeors, Melanoma, methane emissions from plants, methane burps, methane runaway, melting permafrost, Middle Kingdom convulses, migration, migration difficult (birds), migratory birds huge losses, microbes to decompose soil carbon more rapidly, minorities hit, monkeys on the move, Mont Blanc grows, monuments imperiled, moose dying, more bad air days, more research needed, mortality increased, mountain (Everest) shrinking, mountains break up, mountains green and flowering, mountains melting, mountains taller, mortality lower, Myanmar cyclone, narwhals at risk, National security implications, native wildlife overwhelmed, natural disasters quadruple, new islands, next ice age, NFL threatened, Nile delta damaged, noctilucent clouds, no effect in India, Northwest Passage opened, nuclear plants bloom, oaks dying, oaks move north, ocean acidification, ocean deserts expand, ocean waves speed up, opera house to be destroyed, outdoor hockey threatened, ozone repair slowed, ozone rise, Pacific dead zone, penguin chicks frozen, personal carbon rationing, pest outbreaks, pests increase, phenology shifts, plankton blooms, plankton destabilised, plankton loss, plant viruses, plants march north, plants move uphill, polar bears aggressive, polar bears cannibalistic, polar bears drowning, polar bears starve, polar tours scrapped, popcorn rise, porpoise astray, profits collapse, psychiatric illness, puffin decline, railroad tracks deformed, rainfall increase, rape wave, refugees, release of ancient frozen viruses, resorts disappear, rice threatened, rice yields crash, rift on Capitol Hill, rioting and nuclear war, river flow impacted, rivers raised, roads wear out, robins rampant, rocky peaks crack apart, roof of the world a desert, rooftop bars, Ross river disease, ruins ruined, salinity reduction, salinity increase, Salmonella, satellites accelerate, school closures, sea level rise, sea level rise faster, seals mating more, sewer bills rise, severe thunderstorms, sex change, sexual promiscuity, shark attacks, sharks booming, sharks moving north, sheep shrink, shop closures, short-nosed dogs endangered, shrinking ponds, shrinking shrine, ski resorts threatened, skin cancer, slow death, smaller brains, smog, snowfall increase, snowfall heavy, snowfall reduction, soaring food prices, societal collapse, songbirds change eating habits, sour grapes, space problem, spectacular orchids, spiders invade Scotland, squid aggressive giants, squid population explosion, squirrels reproduce earlier, stingray invasion, storms wetter, stormwater drains stressed, street crime to increase, subsidence, suicide, swordfish in the Baltic, Tabasco tragedy, taxes, tectonic plate movement, teenage drinking, terrorism, threat to peace, ticks move northward (Sweden), tides rise, tomatoes rot, tornado outbreak, tourism increase, trade barriers, trade winds weakened, traffic jams, transportation threatened, tree foliage increase (UK), tree growth slowed,, trees could return to Antarctic, trees in trouble, trees less colourful, trees more colourful, trees lush, tropics expansion, tropopause raised, truffle shortage, turtles crash, turtles lay earlier, UK coastal impact, UK Katrina, Vampire moths, Venice flooded, volcanic eruptions, walrus pups orphaned, walrus stampede, war, wars over water, wars sparked, wars threaten billions, wasps, water bills double, water supply unreliability, water scarcity (20% of increase), water stress, weather out of its mind, weather patterns awry, weeds, Western aid cancelled out, West Nile fever, whales move north, whales wiped out, wheat yields crushed in Australia, wildfires, wind shift, wind reduced, wine - harm to Australian industry, wine industry damage (California), wine industry disaster (US), wine - more English, wine - England too hot, wine -German boon, wine - no more French , wine passé (Napa), wine stronger, winters in Britain colder, winter in Britain dead, witchcraft executions, wolves eat more moose, wolves eat less, workers laid off, World at war, World bankruptcy, World in crisis, World in flames, Yellow fever.

 

[Ammar]

Yeah I'm a neo-creationist.

What argument did I make with the links that aren't supported? Can you quote it? I'd like to know exactly what my argument is. Should be easy for you, right? Since you know I even made an argument. All I did was post a link to a site that has a list of all the things blamed on global warming. Now what exact argument was I making here?

I've asked you two times to show me what you think the numbers you posted next to your links actually say and why you believe they disprove CO2 caused GW.

Moderator action notwithstanding I have to agree with Erik that with post 150 you have degenerated to actual trolling.

 

[Ammar]

Absolutely unfair accusations. But then, the world isn't fair.

True enough. I can assure you that your accusation neither shocked, dismayer me or made me realize how bad the world is. I pointed out a fact so that others see your post for what it is.

Straw man. I know perfectly well they don't say that. They DO it. Envioronmental activists do NOT say "the U.S. is solely responsible and we can ignore everybody else". The activists simply ignore everybody else.

Do they? Can you prove it? I suspect simple flawed perception of your part. Anyway, how does that explain U.S. Enviromental activists? Do they all hate their country?
All evil commies?

And the fact is China and India are leading the U.S. in total output.

Erh, no. China is about the same as the U.S., slightly ahead or behind depending on the statistic you use and India is far behind both China and the U.S. Please get at least your facts straight.

Another fact is that China and India will both pass up the U.S. in output per capita within ten years, tops. Assuming they haven't already.

Once again you prove that you don't even know the numbers. Assuming they haven't already.
Both of them are actually under the world average for per Capita 2 CO2 output. U.S. per Capita output is about 500% of that of China. You really think they will make that jump in 10 years?

You cannot ignore the two problems that are India and China. You must do something to prevent them from becoming a problem three times as big (EACH) as the U.S. currently is. You are not addressing this facet of the problem.

How should I do that here? Is there any Chinese person in this thread I can argue with? I don't argue about China here, because no one from there will actually listen in. As far as Enviromental Groups go, yes, they are concerned about China as well regardless of your paranoia.

Yeah, well, I refuse to accept it.

I'm not going to do a damn thing about global warming.

So there. Now you have to do something about China and India. You don't have any choice.

Since the U.S. will never do anything about it, just because you don't want them to? Right?

Edit: Quick tip for ya, dude. NEVER PLAY POKER. EVER.

Whatever.

 

[skadistic]

I've asked you two times to show me what you think the numbers you posted next to your links actually say and why you believe they disprove CO2 caused GW.The numbers show that man makes a fraction of the worlds CO2 and that CO2 is a fraction of the greenhouse gasses then there is the not warming part.

Moderator action notwithstanding I have to agree with Erik that with post 150 you have degenerated to actual trolling.

SO posting a link to a site that has a bunch of links to things that are "caused by global warming" is trolling? Yeah sure it is.

 

[skadistic]

Having a discussion is kind of hard when you post in a manner that is hard to reply to and when you do posts like your previous one.

What exactly is wrong with posting a link?

 

[skadistic]

Yes, lets try some.

Try some what?

 

[Julian Delphiki]

Try some what?

Any one one here that would like to have a discussion? The discussion by the way is not about how I post but the environment. It seems to hard for some people to stay on track and need to divert the discussion from the uncomfortable direction of how global warming is a bunch of crap and onto how some posters post.

Any one there who will debate the facts and not make personal attacks or attack the source or anything but the facts?

You're so cute when you cannot admit never doing anything wrong.

 

[Ammar]

The numbers show that man makes a fraction of the worlds CO2 and that CO2 is a fraction of the greenhouse gasses then there is the not warming part.

Is that all you've got? Once again, that's a conclusion not an argument. Show me why the numbers show that.

Else it's just an argument from incredulity "Oh, noes, them numbers be too small. No way."

 

[Erik Mesoy]

What exactly is wrong with posting a link?

It shows an unwillingness to commit to a position because it's so easy to disassociate oneself from should the link be poor or easily discredited, such as by saying "well it's not mine" or "attack the link, not me" or "I never made that argument, it's not my argument" or the like.

 

[skadistic]

You're so cute when you cannot admit never doing anything wrong.
[/COLOR]

What did I do wrong exactly?

 

[Julian Delphiki]

Awww, cute.

Obviously, nothing.

 

[skadistic]

Is that all you've got? Once again, that's a conclusion not an argument. Show me why the numbers show that. So when I say that man has little impact on a nonexistent warming that's not an argument? Ok.

Else it's just an argument from incredulity "Oh, noes, them numbers be too small. No way."

Can you show me how the fraction of a fraction of the CO2 makes up of all green house gas that man has created is the biggest cause of the "global warming crisis"? You can't because the data doesn't support that claim. Not only does the data show no warming but it shows that CO2 levels aren't causing the warming. The warming that isn't happening but should be if you believe all the hype.

The numbers are to small. But instead of actually debating that you attack me.

 

[skadistic]

Awww, cute.

Obviously, nothing.

Obviously indeed.

 

[Julian Delphiki]

Do you consider post #150 a serious, valid post which has place in serious discussion you were asking after that?

 

[skadistic]

It shows an unwillingness to commit to a position because it's so easy to disassociate oneself from should the link be poor or easily discredited, such as by saying "well it's not mine" or "attack the link, not me" or "I never made that argument, it's not my argument" or the like.

So what is the position I'm unwilling to commit to? Why exactly did I post that link? Since you seem to think you know.

 

[skadistic]

Do you consider post #150 a serious, valid post which has place in serious discussion you were asking after that?

Yes I do. Now debate the point of the post. If you aren't to busy trolling me.

 

[Truronian]

I'll post in your prefered style:

Firm indeed.

Carbon Dioxide:
Carbon Dioxide (CO2) is a minor greenhouse gasWhat do you mean by that?
Carbon Dioxide (CO2) levels in the atmosphere have risen by about 30% (280-370 ppmv) over the past 100 years. Which is quite a bit.
Carbon Dioxide (CO2) is only about 0.038% of the atmosphere.However it is a good infrared absorber
Carbon Dioxide accounts for about 4.2-8.4% of the greenhouse effect. or http://brneurosci.org/co2.htmlA little low, and also hard to give a number to. If we removed all the CO₂ from the atmosphere we'd see a 9% drop in temperature rise from the greenhouseeffect, though if we had only CO₂ we'd still have a greenhouse effect temperature about a quarter of the size of the current one.¹
Humans can only claim responsibility for 3.4% of the Carbon Dioxide (CO2) emitted to the atmosphere annually.That's very much besides the point. Why have you included this?
Humans can only claim responsibility for 0.28% of the greenhouse effectYour link offers no explaination as to how it arrived at this figure, while your junk science link puts the figure at 2.6%. Did you just get enamoured by the low low number?

 

[Ammar]

The numbers are to small. But instead of actually debating that you attack me.

Because they are just too small by your declaration.

Very well. *sigh* Let me actually do the math and pluck your numbers apart.

CO2) is only about 0.038%

This number is completely useless. Small things can have a greater effect than you would suspect. Beginning with the fact that the little, little CO2 which you hardly deem worthy mentioning because it's just 0.038% is actually necessary for life. Which does NOT mean that too much isn't bad.

(CO2) levels in the atmosphere have risen by about 30% (280-370 ppmv) over the past 100 years.
Carbon Dioxide accounts for about 4.2-8.4% of the greenhouse effect

So, how large is the Greenhouse Effect? It's commonly estimated at about 32 degrees Kelvin and since you posted no other number that's the one I'll go with. So 5% of 32 degrees is 1.6 Kelvin. An increase by 32% would then cause a rise of temperature by 0.51 degrees. Isn't that far below what we observe, is it? Note that I used a low number from the 4.2-8.4 intervall. Obviously this is a rough estimate, I miss a couple of positive and negative feedbacks loops, but using only the two numbers you posted GW is very plausible.

Humans can only claim responsibility for 3.4% of the Carbon Dioxide (CO2) emitted to the atmosphere annually

True... and what does that tell us? Does that mean the CO2 we output is not enough in tons for the additional tons that appeared in the atmosphere? But it is, that's a simple checking of the numbers. Maybe you mean it's effect on the natural balance is too low? Let's try that.

Let F(t) be the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere at time t. We can model the change by

F'(t) = O(F,t) + H(F,t) - A(F,t).

Here N is the natural output, H is the human output and A is what is absorbed or turned back into O2 and C.

Now, your numbers claim

F'(t) = 1.034 * O(F,t) - A(F,t). And here we stop because we can do nothing at all without studying A, i.e. the CO2 sinks of the world in detail. Of importance is here mainly the dependence of A and F,t. And in similar equations of that form occuring in nature there are very different forms of A's occuring. Easy ones would be

A = const. (example being human breakdown of alcohol in bloodstream)
A = k*F, k being a positive constant (population curves)

In the first case the excess would simply accumulate in the atmosphere, while the second one would support your point.
This shows that this number alone is worthless and the fact that you failed to realize it shows that you don't know what you are talking about.

 

[Luckymoose]

I like the ocean, infact I like it so much I think there should be more of it. Go Bush! Give me beachfront property!