Environment gets Bushed

[El_Machinae]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,380202,00.html

Yes, if you increase moisture where there are freezing temperatures, there will be an increase in snowfall/ice in those regions.

Yes, parts of the world are still below freezing and will remain below freezing for decades to come. All those regions will see snowfall/ice.

It's the areas which were regularly below freezing but now aren't where the ice is melting. Global warming will continue to shift those transition zones, and so we'll continue to see melting of ancient ice.

 

[skadistic]

Yes, if you increase moisture where there are freezing temperatures, there will be an increase in snowfall/ice in those regions.

Yes, parts of the world are still below freezing and will remain below freezing for decades to come. All those regions will see snowfall/ice.

It's the areas which were regularly below freezing but now aren't where the ice is melting. Global warming will continue to shift those transition zones, and so we'll continue to see melting of ancient ice.

So we have to keep the ancient ice? Why exactly? If new ice is being made in other places and temperate zones are shirting does it really mater if the ice is new or old?

Copied from another thread...

NO EVIDENCE OF GLOBAL WARMING IN SOUTHERN HEMISPHERE
http://ray-dox.blogspot.com...obal-warming-in.html

Ice cores show previous warming that was greater than current, and the ice did not melt completely.

From an article in Science Magazine, by experts in Greenland and temperature data from boreholes in the ice:
Past Temperatures Directly from the Greenland Ice Sheet

Histograms from the GRIP reconstruction
(Fig. 3) show that temperatures at the Last
Glacial Maximum (LGM) were 23 6 2 K
colder than at present (21). The temperatures
at this time, 25 ka, reflect the cold temperatures
seen on the measured temperature profile at a
depth of 1200 to 2000 m. Alternative reconstructions
of the ice thickness and accumulation
rates all reproduce LGM temperatures within 2
K (9, 10, 22, 23). The cold Younger Dryas and
the warm Bølling/Allerød periods (24) are not
resolved in the inverse reconstruction. The temperature
signals of these periods have been
obliterated by thermal diffusion because of their
short duration (25). After the termination of the
glacial period, temperatures in our record increase
steadily, reaching a period 2.5 K warmer
than present during what is referred to as the
Climatic Optimum (CO), at 8 to 5 ka. Following
the CO, temperatures cool to a minimum of
0.5 K colder than the present at around 2 ka.
The record implies that the medieval period
around 1000 A.D. was 1 K warmer than present
in Greenland. Two cold periods, at 1550 and
1850 A.D., are observed during the Little Ice
Age (LIA) with temperatures 0.5 and 0.7 K
below the present. After the LIA, temperatures
reach a maximum around 1930 A.D.; temperatures
have decreased during the last decades
(26). The climate history for the most recent
times is in agreement with direct measurements
in the Arctic regions (27). The climate history
for the last 500 years agrees with the general
understanding of the climate in the Arctic region
(28) and can be used to verify the temperature
amplitudes. The results show that the
temperatures in general have decreased since
the CO and that no warming in Greenland is
observed in the most recent decades.
As seen in Fig. 3, resolution decreases back

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According to the data in the graph, it was warmer - MUCH warmer in Greenland in the past. So why didn't all the ice melt then? Why would we believe it will melt NOW?

===================================================

So Much For Flooded Cities: Greenland Ice Loss Not Increasing
http://www.dailytech.com/So...ing/article12277.htm

=================

Here is another graph of Greenland's temperatures, taken from ice boreholes. Source:pdf file

Notice that the temperatures were hotter than the present in Greenland, and it was hotter for 1200 (TWELVE HUNDRED) years. And the ice did not melt.

 

[History_Buff]

If our greenhouse gas reduction programs set off an Ice Age, we will in fact have lost a great deal.

Yes, but last I checked, there's a whole lot of nobody predicting that that will happen. Most of the opposition to AGW is in the form of 'carbon is not driving climate change', so nor would the absense of it drive cooling.

 

[Ecofarm]

Yes, but last I checked, there's a whole lot of nobody predicting that that will happen. Most of the opposition to AGW is in the form of 'carbon is not driving climate change', so nor would the absense of it drive cooling.

The ice age will occur for this reason:

The Gulf Stream, a current flowing up the east coast of the US, warms the mediterranean and provides the 'mediterranean climate' that is unusual for that latitude. Once cool, at that northern latitude, the water flows out of the mediterranean and heads south (the North Atlantic Deep Cold Current, IIRC). This current feeds the antarctic circumpolar current, the strongest and only continuous current in the world. It connects to all the oceans.

Now, when the mediterranean is so warm that it fails to provide a steady stream of deep cold water via the N. Atlantic to the Circumpolar, the circumpolar will be inturrupted or even stop. This causes an ice age.

In the northern Atlantic Ocean, cold salty water sinks, forming the North Atlantic Deep Water, a southward moving water mass centered around the depth of 2.5 kilometers (1.6 miles). This sunken water is replaced by water essentially originating in the Antarctic Circumpolar Current and flowing across the equator northward through surface currents such as the Gulf Stream and the North Atlantic Current.

In a sensitivity study using a coarse-resolution ocean general circulation model in an idealized single-basin configuration with a circumpolar channel, Fu kar and Vallis find that deep water production diminishes as surface temperature increases in the north, affecting the basin's overturning circulation and stratification.

This induces a change in water mass properties in the southern circumpolar region, causing a substantially higher volume transport around Antarctica. The authors note that significant variations in certain critical model parameters do not change this result. If their model holds true, a change of surface buoyancy in the Northern Hemisphere may significantly influence the stratification and transport of the Antarctic Circumpolar Current.

Reference for second article: Neven S. Fu kar: Atmospheric and Oceanic Sciences Program, Princeton University, Princeton, New Jersey, U.S.A.; Geoffrey K. Vallis: Geophysical Fluid Dynamics Laboratory, National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, Princeton, New Jersey, U.S.A.; also at Atmospheric and Oceanic Sciences Program, Princeton University, Princeton, New Jersey, U.S.A.,"Interhemispheric influence of surface buoyancy conditions on a circumpolar current" Geophysical Research Letters (GRL) paper 10.1029/2007GL030379, 2007

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/08/070814162330.htm

 

[History_Buff]

That is believed to have happened in a period of warmer surface temperatures however, which only reaffirms my position.

 

[Ecofarm]

That is believed to have happened in a period of warmer surface temperatures however, which only reaffirms my position.

I'm not sure what your position is. I was just trying to explain how gradually warmer surface temps can cause a sudden ice age.

 

[ainwood]

Yes, but last I checked, there's a whole lot of nobody predicting that that will happen. Most of the opposition to AGW is in the form of 'carbon is not driving climate change', so nor would the absense of it drive cooling.

A lot is that its not likely to be significant enough change to worry about.

 

[El_Machinae]

What will be an indicator that 'changes were significant?'

 

[El_Machinae]

So we have to keep the ancient ice? Why exactly? If new ice is being made in other places and temperate zones are shirting does it really mater if the ice is new or old?

It matters with regards to river flows and whether or not the ice is sea ice or not.

 

[skadistic]

It matters with regards to river flows and whether or not the ice is sea ice or not.

Rivers change curse and dry up all the time. Sea ice matters why?

 

[History_Buff]

Sea ice matters why?

Multi-year ice is key to maintaining polar ecosystems?

 

[skadistic]

Multi-year ice is key to maintaining polar ecosystems?

Would that include the thriving polar bears who are in more danger from Canadian hunters then global warming which will increase their food supplies? And the Penguins that are actually more abundant in non polar regions? Some thing like 80% of all penguins live out side the Antartic circle.

 

[Loki130]

Polar bears depend on sea ice for their hunting tactics-ambushing seals when they come up to breathing holes in the ice

 

[Ecofarm]

I imagine it affects ocean currents, which regulate world temperature and the locations of the ocean's food chain base (plankton).

The implications are pretty unfathomable.

Also, a 1m rise in sea-level will consume the Everglades and countless other invaluable estuaries.

I don't doubt the earth is warming and I've studied the implications (in grad school), but I still think we give ourselves too much credit for it.

 

[skadistic]

Polar bears depend on sea ice for their hunting tactics-ambushing seals when they come up to breathing holes in the ice

Polar bears are omnivorous and eat anything including deer, fish, garbage, birds, berries, seaweed, rabbits, foxes rodents. Seals are only a part of their diet. A large portion of the polar bear population live on land and not sea ice. There are 20ish groups and one has declining population and one has growing population. The rest are stagnant. Kept mostly in check by Canadian hunting.

 

[Adrogans]

I don't doubt the earth is warming and I've studied the implications (in grad school), but I still think we give ourselves too much credit for it.

That has been my take on it. Yes its happening, no I do not think we are the cause.

 

[El_Machinae]

Rivers change curse and dry up all the time. Sea ice matters why?

Even if rivers change course on certain timescales, it doesn't mean that it's wise to change the current cycles of meltwater that rivers experience. It also doesn't mean that it's fair to people who depend upon those rivers.

Sea ice matters because it's a temperature buffering system, which stabilizes ocean temp and helps maintain current cycles of flow. As far as sea levels go, it doesn't matter if sea ice melts (since they displace their mass anyway), that's why people are worried about the glaciers sliding into the oceans. But sea ice matters with regards to keeping waters a stable temperature.

 

[skadistic]

Even if rivers change course on certain timescales, it doesn't mean that it's wise to change the current cycles of meltwater that rivers experience. It also doesn't mean that it's fair to people who depend upon those rivers.

Sea ice matters because it's a temperature buffering system, which stabilizes ocean temp and helps maintain current cycles of flow. As far as sea levels go, it doesn't matter if sea ice melts (since they displace their mass anyway), that's why people are worried about the glaciers sliding into the oceans. But sea ice matters with regards to keeping waters a stable temperature.

Awww its not fair. Rivers don't change course on time scales one good flood can change a rivers course for years until the next good flood. If all that cold glacier water runs into the sea won't it cool the sea thus cooling the planet. That's how the last ice age happened. To much cold water stopped the conveyors so no gulf stream and no northern warming. Funny how nature will try to balance it self out like that. This may be news to you but the climate is not has never been and will never be stable. For every ebb there is a flow. There are so many factors in the climate stability is impossible. It has been warmer in the past then it is today. It will be warmer in the future near and far then it is today. It has been colder in the past then it is today. It will be colder in the future near and far then it is today.

 

[El_Machinae]

If all that cold glacier water runs into the sea won't it cool the sea thus cooling the planet.

Man, what?

 

[skadistic]

Man, what?

Exactly.......