Espionage
- Thread starter Brave Jay
- Start date
I usually leave it at 0. The only times I raise it is when I need the extra points for something specific like changing a civs religion or civics, or stealing a tech. But you can just focus all your points towards a single target when you need to.
Polycrates
Emperor
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2006
- Messages
- 1,288
Depends. If science rate is already low, I tend to let espionage suffer. I probably wouldn't put it at more than 10% unless I had specific plans to run a very heavy espionage campaign against a particular civ.
Later in the game, you can get heaps just from stacking buildings in a few cities: jail+courthouse+security bureau+intelligence agency gives 44EP a turn just on their own, and you can get 8 more for every spy specialist you run. So you can get massive espionage even without using the slider if you specialise a bit.
Later in the game, you can get heaps just from stacking buildings in a few cities: jail+courthouse+security bureau+intelligence agency gives 44EP a turn just on their own, and you can get 8 more for every spy specialist you run. So you can get massive espionage even without using the slider if you specialise a bit.
Have you read the great spy from Great Wall trick?
GW = Gspy, infiltrate the city of a civ with good tech rate. Gain around 3000 EPoints, steal all their techs in the early game.
With this strat you dont need to touch the slider. You effectively buy the espionage with hammers for the GW.
It usually spits out a second Gspy, so he can be settled, again reducing the need for you to spend your hard earned commerce on espnge.
GW = Gspy, infiltrate the city of a civ with good tech rate. Gain around 3000 EPoints, steal all their techs in the early game.
With this strat you dont need to touch the slider. You effectively buy the espionage with hammers for the GW.
It usually spits out a second Gspy, so he can be settled, again reducing the need for you to spend your hard earned commerce on espnge.
FrancisMarion
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2007
- Messages
- 90
I haven't seen a reason to run it at anything other than 0 unless I'm planning something, and then I just run it high for a few turns against a single opponent.
Gnarfflinger
Wiseguy in Training
I'll go as high as 30 % in a war. Then I'll use the spies to poison water supplies and to cause revolts. I like to settle great spies early. Never built Scotland Yard yet though...
Leventis
Warlord
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2006
- Messages
- 262
Just a quick question of my own if I may: I had a spy scouting out a civs lands with whom I had OB with and it got caught giving a -1 diplo. How did it get caught? In the civilopedia it says that your spies can't get caught in friendly territory unless they are performing a mission, or words to that effect. Can anyone explain this, or am I misinterpreting something here? Thx.
petey
Prince
Also, just a point to remember in case there's anyone out there who's as dumb as me.
If you build the Great Wall, settle the Great Spy you get from it instead of building Scotland Yard. I was so excited about the 100% espionage bonus that I neglected to consider that the only espionage points I had were the +4 from my palace, so I ended up with 8/turn, instead of getting the +12 from settling, which would have given me 16/turn.
You'd think that this would be something that's so obvious that it doesn't need to be mentioned. You'd think that ...
If you build the Great Wall, settle the Great Spy you get from it instead of building Scotland Yard. I was so excited about the 100% espionage bonus that I neglected to consider that the only espionage points I had were the +4 from my palace, so I ended up with 8/turn, instead of getting the +12 from settling, which would have given me 16/turn.
You'd think that this would be something that's so obvious that it doesn't need to be mentioned. You'd think that ...
I haven't read it, but i stumbled upon it in one of my games, and yes, i didn't really need to touch my slider in that one. but that was one game. I don't want to always use the same strategy in every game just for spy points.
So far i feel like i should always out-spy my opponents, because it acts as sort of a defense against their spying. Plus, I'm nosey about what they are all doing.
I never raise the espionage slider above 0%.
The spy specialist is really a great deal once you get the courthouse. Getting 4 EPs and 1 beaker is better than running a scientist for 3 beakers, so if I have 2 spare food at that time, I usually run spies in preference to other specialists. Turning 1 commerce into 1 EP in the early game is not a good deal - when it can be 1.25 beakers (with library) or 1.25 gold (with market). So use commerce for either beakers or gold, if possible. Courthouses are pretty much essential to cut maintenance costs early on anyway and the 2 EPs make them a great deal. New cities usually get granary, library, courthouse in quick succession.
Then getting to Constitution fast is a priority. Jails are good for WW reduction and the EPs and especially the +50% is great.
Communism is then another research priority with the Security Agency for another +50%. With these basic buildings in a few cities I get 14 EPs and can run upto 5 spy specialists (another 20 EPs and 5 beakers) and that all has 100% EP bonus. Such a city gives 28 to 88 EPs a turn depending on the amount of food spent running spies. Adding the Security Bureau is expensive in hammers but another 8 EPs is worth double by then so some cities get that as well.
With that set up in 6 or 7 cities (plus a capital with a Great Spy or two) I find I have enough EPs against all the AIs to see their research and counter their espionage attempts by catching spies and making it really expensive. My neighbours get enough EPs to let me see any armies approaching so I get no nasty surprises. If I focus the EPs on one opponent I can look into most of his cities and see what he's built and what he's building... and boy are those AI's dumb
I haven't tried the Great Spy special mission and steal tech idea that NaZdReG is advocating yet. But as I've been the tech leader at Prince and Monarch games I've played so far it wouldn't have been a lot of use anyway
and it's hard to decide which AI deserves that many EPs so my Great Spies have been settled for a slow release of EPs that can be distributed against any AI.
Summary: Don't use commerce to make EPs in the early game. It is a bad deal. Use buildings and spy specialists. Later on when you have several cities with Jails and Security Agencies for a 100% EP bonus perhaps commerce to EPs could be a better proposition, but I've not had to resort to it yet. At that late stage of the game EPs are worth about the same as a beaker or a gold and commerce can be turned into either 2 EPs or 2 beakers or 2 gold in the best cities.
The spy specialist is really a great deal once you get the courthouse. Getting 4 EPs and 1 beaker is better than running a scientist for 3 beakers, so if I have 2 spare food at that time, I usually run spies in preference to other specialists. Turning 1 commerce into 1 EP in the early game is not a good deal - when it can be 1.25 beakers (with library) or 1.25 gold (with market). So use commerce for either beakers or gold, if possible. Courthouses are pretty much essential to cut maintenance costs early on anyway and the 2 EPs make them a great deal. New cities usually get granary, library, courthouse in quick succession.
Then getting to Constitution fast is a priority. Jails are good for WW reduction and the EPs and especially the +50% is great.
Communism is then another research priority with the Security Agency for another +50%. With these basic buildings in a few cities I get 14 EPs and can run upto 5 spy specialists (another 20 EPs and 5 beakers) and that all has 100% EP bonus. Such a city gives 28 to 88 EPs a turn depending on the amount of food spent running spies. Adding the Security Bureau is expensive in hammers but another 8 EPs is worth double by then so some cities get that as well.
With that set up in 6 or 7 cities (plus a capital with a Great Spy or two) I find I have enough EPs against all the AIs to see their research and counter their espionage attempts by catching spies and making it really expensive. My neighbours get enough EPs to let me see any armies approaching so I get no nasty surprises. If I focus the EPs on one opponent I can look into most of his cities and see what he's built and what he's building... and boy are those AI's dumb
I haven't tried the Great Spy special mission and steal tech idea that NaZdReG is advocating yet. But as I've been the tech leader at Prince and Monarch games I've played so far it wouldn't have been a lot of use anyway
and it's hard to decide which AI deserves that many EPs so my Great Spies have been settled for a slow release of EPs that can be distributed against any AI.Summary: Don't use commerce to make EPs in the early game. It is a bad deal. Use buildings and spy specialists. Later on when you have several cities with Jails and Security Agencies for a 100% EP bonus perhaps commerce to EPs could be a better proposition, but I've not had to resort to it yet. At that late stage of the game EPs are worth about the same as a beaker or a gold and commerce can be turned into either 2 EPs or 2 beakers or 2 gold in the best cities.
I rarely raise the slider above 0% and so far I haven't really been getting great spies either. I'm convinced espionage is completely unnecessary to winning using any standard strategy. your courthouses and other buildings will eventually start to generate more than enough points for all the passive missions, especially if you are beating the AIs in other areas anyway. like anything else, if they don't have as much land or power as you, how can they spy as much as you?
I might sometimes raise it to 10-20% and put all the points against one key opponent for a few turns, if I need to catch up and see what they are researching, but only temporarily.
also, just build your own spies and keep one in each city to help counter enemy spying.
the key thing is that the AIs go crazy with espionage but that slows down their tech pace considerably. don't make the same mistake if you are trying for a good victory. it's a fun feature but not needed.
I might sometimes raise it to 10-20% and put all the points against one key opponent for a few turns, if I need to catch up and see what they are researching, but only temporarily.
also, just build your own spies and keep one in each city to help counter enemy spying.
the key thing is that the AIs go crazy with espionage but that slows down their tech pace considerably. don't make the same mistake if you are trying for a good victory. it's a fun feature but not needed.
I bump it to 10 when i can afford it and sometimes another 10 if i can afford it later. I like to see what they are doing.
Had a game last night that i finally got the AIs teching for distant continent Civs. One was 1 turn from liberalism, I was 3. I turned all cities to research and I beat him. Had similar thing with communism except had more warning and was a little more relaxed. Free tech and Free Gspy for my esp investment.
once you can see what they are producing navel assaults are a little more noticeable. Huge stack + transport ships = you better be ready to declare war out in the water. Or at least queue up your reinforcements.
Had a game last night that i finally got the AIs teching for distant continent Civs. One was 1 turn from liberalism, I was 3. I turned all cities to research and I beat him. Had similar thing with communism except had more warning and was a little more relaxed. Free tech and Free Gspy for my esp investment.
once you can see what they are producing navel assaults are a little more noticeable. Huge stack + transport ships = you better be ready to declare war out in the water. Or at least queue up your reinforcements.
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