Eugene of Savoy

[Evie]

Well i think otherwise but i could be wrong. Always remember that the perspective of the one talking matters. If Christians discriminate against Muslims , for someone who comes from a Christian background or whose country is mostly Christian is a lot better than the opposite.

Well, obviously. From biased perspective people will always feel it's better for the OTHER guy to be discriminated against.

From a neutral, third-party perspective, it's patentedly clear that the Ottomans's discrimination toward Christians, Jews and others never came even close to the Christian discrimination (in Europe) toward Muslims and Jews.

 

[Tank_Guy#3]

I do believe that Sobieski did more to save Christian Europe than did Eugene of Savoy. In fact, I believe that Sobieski and Eugene fought at the Siege of Vienna together. However, I'm not trying to denounce him, as he is also a fine commander and helped retake lands from the Ottomans after Sobieski halted their advance.

The Ottoman Empires expansion into Europe effectively stopped after Sobieski crushed them there. Crushed is the correct word to use.

 

[@N1k1T0$]

Well, obviously. From biased perspective people will always feel it's better for the OTHER guy to be discriminated against.

From a neutral, third-party perspective, it's patentedly clear that the Ottomans's discrimination toward Christians, Jews and others never came even close to the Christian discrimination (in Europe) toward Muslims and Jews.

Does not tell me much though because the number of Christians , Jews and others in specific population is a very important fact. Hence if a Christian Nation where almost everyone is a Christian and is not discriminated falled under Ottoman control such discrimination would happen and it would be in a huge extend due to the number of the Christians in the population.

So IMO from a third party perspective and a neutral , it should be positive that Christian European Nations,Regions succeeded at not failing under Ottoman control.

Though there is also the whole issue of national identity and being ruled by a different empire ,country than your own , though it is not like the Ottomans where the only ones to do it , the difference between the culture of the Ottoman empire and some other European countries is also important for the Europeans that would , could become the subjects of the Ottoman empire.

 

[Evie]

Oh, I'm not saying it's a good or bad thing that Central Europe remained outside Ottoman rules. Certainly, I can see why the Christians wouldn't want to be part of that empire.

I'm saying on an outside, purely objective perspective., the Ottoman Empire was the more tolerant one. It also had its downsides (conservatism to make post-medieval Europe look hyper-liberal, for one thing).

 

[Plotinus]

Well i think otherwise but i could be wrong. Always remember that the perspective of the one talking matters. If Christians discriminate against Muslims , for someone who comes from a Christian background or whose country is mostly Christian is a lot better than the opposite.

Surely most of the discrimination in early modern times was perpetrated by people of one religion against what they regarded as heretics of their own religion, not by one religion against another. It became a capital crime to deny the Trinity in England in 1648, although as far as I know no-one was ever actually executed for it; the sentence was changed to imprisonment in 1698. Catholics were so discriminated against that the church was unable to have an official clerical hierarchy until 1850.

 

[@N1k1T0$]

Oh, I'm not saying it's a good or bad thing that Central Europe remained outside Ottoman rules. Certainly, I can see why the Christians wouldn't want to be part of that empire.

I'm saying on an outside, purely objective perspective., the Ottoman Empire was the more tolerant one. It also had its downsides (conservatism to make post-medieval Europe look hyper-liberal, for one thing).

And i am saying that comparing on what would be the best for a region , to be annexed,conquered , by the Ottoman empire or not , from a purely objective point of view i think that it would be better if they where not conquered. In fact the population would be less discriminated if that happens. Which does not mean if said nation would conquer a Muslim territory that the same would not happen , that it would be better for it to fail to do it to avoid the discrimination. And the whole we are against regions being conquered and people becoming the subjects of others...


So i am certainly saying that is definitely a positive thing that central Europe was not under the control of the Ottoman empire taking also into consideration the evolution of European culture.

Surely most of the discrimination in early modern times was perpetrated by people of one religion against what they regarded as heretics of their own religion, not by one religion against another. It became a capital crime to deny the Trinity in England in 1648, although as far as I know no-one was ever actually executed for it; the sentence was changed to imprisonment in 1698. Catholics were so discriminated against that the church was unable to have an official clerical hierarchy until 1850.

I am not denying that in early modern times those considered as heretics may have received in certain regions most of the discrimination .

But maybe in some regions this could be described as civil war ? I see this as a bit different than with the Ottoman empire where being a Muslim was like being a part of an "ottoman nationality" while being a Christian meant you where a subject to the Muslims.

It is different in the matter of the who is discriminated game. Not the margin of discrimination but who is a potential enemy of the Ottomans.

It does not make their discrimination worse but it does means though you may correct me if i am wrong , that they make all Christians their enemies while Protestants , Catholics have fewer enemies , and that is when they influence their country in a way that would make opposite different sect country to consider them as an enemy.
Of course feel free to correct any of the mistakes i may have made...