Europeans and Growth of Islam

[Nick Garai]

Anyone here actually think that Islam will be tha much of a cultural threat to Europe?

 

[Masquerouge]

Anyone here actually think that Islam will be tha much of a cultural threat to Europe?

I see it as a cultural opportunity.

 

[Nick Garai]

For which culture?

 

[Salah-Al-Din]

Call me stupid but could it be said, the longer generations of an ethnicity spend in an area the more likely the children and grandchildren will have a very different view than their parents?

What I find interesting is the Indo-Pakistani Muslims in Chicago consists of
16% doctors
33% engineers
44% doctorates degrees
84% bachelors degrees
and less than 2% had less than H.S. education.

It's no wonder that community has twice the average income of the U.S. population. Not a bad gig.

Yes, I am always shocked at the reaction of Europeans to Muslims in their lands. Well, not so much that they hate Muslims, but rather at the fact that they describe them as low-class, a burden on society, and eating up welfare.

It contrasts sharply with the Muslims in America, who in general are much better off than the rest of the population. Where I live, Muslims are generally doctors and engineers, and they excel in academics. They drive big cars, live in huge homes, and have the *lowest* crime rate. First generation Muslims flock to competitive and prestigious universities.

I think it's odd when Europeans describe how they're scared of a Muslim if they are walking across the street, as they pray that they don't get mugged by him. This contrasts so sharply with the United States, where the last person you are scared of is a Muslim who are not known for violent crimes and who make up a very small percentage of those in jails. (I'm talking about *immigrant* Muslims and their respective diasporas.)

I think that any group of people is a reflection of the experiences shared by those people. It is all too easy to reach to easy conclusions about the inferiority of certain people. The European Muslims are oftentimes refugees and the poor. *That* is the reason they are on welfare, into crime, etc. Nothing to do with Islam. If it were Islam, then the immigrant Muslims in America wouldn't be doing so well. In my own community, if you are not a doctor, engineer, or lawyer, then forget it: you ain't getting married!

May Allah save us from racism, which is just the extension of stupidity.

 

[innonimatu]

It has a very simple explanation, really: in both Europe and the US politicians pay lip-service to keeping immigration low, but they really want a good number of immigrants to come in, for economical and political reasons. In the US the people most in hand to become illegal economic immigrants are mexicans. In Europe they are africans and south asians, most of whom happen to be muslims.

Muslim immigrants must be rich or very resourceful to reach the US, but can easily enter Europe. That explains the socio-economical differences between muslim communities in the two areas, and that in turn explains the attitude towards them by the general population.

It's not about race, it's about class. Race is just a rationalization, in these days people even prefer telieving themselves racist to recognizing the existence of class differences. Your conclusion, too, it appears.

As for the bogeyman of a muslim Europe, I find it absurd.

 

[DariusTheGreat]

Whats to appreciate about them?

So now your saying he should hate muslims again?

When did I say he should hate muslims?? I'm confused

 

[Winner]

Call me stupid but could it be said, the longer generations of an ethnicity spend in an area the more likely the children and grandchildren will have a very different view than their parents?

What I find interesting is the Indo-Pakistani Muslims in Chicago consists of
16% doctors
33% engineers
44% doctorates degrees
84% bachelors degrees
and less than 2% had less than H.S. education.

It's no wonder that community has twice the average income of the U.S. population. Not a bad gig.

US experience.

It is irrelevant to European situation.

 

[Panda]

I have been told from other sites that countries such as England and Spain are very heavily Muslim now. What about the rest of Europe?

In Finland, the muslim community is relatively small (when compared to, say, Sweden, Germany, or France) due to strict immigration and asylum regulations.

Is European still "European" or is it Islamicized?

It's in the progress of being de-christianized and then to be socialized & islamicized. This is due to ever increasing muslim immigation, declining European birth rates, and an increase in EU influence.

Is the European way of life really in danger of vanishing as I have heard?

There really isn't a day some part of European culture, tradition or even language is declared 'offensive' or 'intolerant', it's use demonized, and ultimately criminilized.

I reckon by 2009 using the word 'white wash' will be net you a two-year-prison-sentence as it suggests that only white people are clean.

So to answer your question, yes.

 

[Salah-Al-Din]

It's in the progress of being de-christianized and then to be socialized & islamicized. This is due to ever increasing muslim immigation, declining European birth rates, and an increase in EU influence.

I find this ridicolous to say. The statistics given show that in most European countries, Muslims make up around 3-5% of the population only.

How in the world does a 5% population de-Chrsitianize and "Islamicize" the remaining 95% of the population? Logic dictates that it is the *other* 95% that will "assimilate" the other 5%, not the other way around.

This fanatical fear of immigrants, even though they form such a small percentage of the population, has a word for it: it's called xenophobia.

It's just as silly as white Americans fearing that blacks would "de-white" whites, and no matter how you put it, this fear stems from racism and bigotry. You cannot justify it, no matter how hard you try.

Instead of fear-mongering and demonizing immigrant populations, you should try building bridges with them and addressing their very real concerns. Open up a dialogue and you will find that they aren't as different as you think, and that they are humans just like you.

Furthermore, I think that the Occident should reflect on how they get so angry when Oriental immigrant populations migrate to their countries and do so peacefully/unarmed. Imagine then the anger of people living in Oriental countries that Occidental countries invade and conquer by force.

Take care.

 

[Pasi Nurminen]

I for one welcome muslims into my community and previously enjoyed the contributions they made to Canadian society while I was still there. A while back I met a couple of Pakistani men who were travelling through the region and they seemed like perfectly nice fellows, but expressed disdain for the way muslims are treated when travelling in the United States, Canada, and Western Europe. When asked if they would travel to North America any time soon, they responded emphatically no, saying that they had no desire to be suspected of some crime solely because of their religion and nationality.

Western authorities need to do a lot of reconciliation if they want to be viewed favourably around the world any time soon.

 

[Winner]

Anyone here actually think that Islam will be tha much of a cultural threat to Europe?

I do, I only think it already is a cultural threat to Europe and it has been that way since its beginning.

 

[Winner]

I see it as a cultural opportunity.

I can't see what Islam has to offer to the modern Western society. As it seems, it is backwards in almost everything, so besides cuisine and art, what could it offer?

Sharia law? Jihad?

No thanks, we have a lot of our own problems.

 

[Salah-Al-Din]

It has a very simple explanation, really: in both Europe and the US politicians pay lip-service to keeping immigration low, but they really want a good number of immigrants to come in, for economical and political reasons. In the US the people most in hand to become illegal economic immigrants are mexicans. In Europe they are africans and south asians, most of whom happen to be muslims.

Muslim immigrants must be rich or very resourceful to reach the US, but can easily enter Europe. That explains the socio-economical differences between muslim communities in the two areas, and that in turn explains the attitude towards them by the general population.

It's not about race, it's about class. Race is just a rationalization, in these days people even prefer telieving themselves racist to recognizing the existence of class differences. Your conclusion, too, it appears.

As for the bogeyman of a muslim Europe, I find it absurd.

Very insightful post. It *is* about class and not race/religion.

You can see the *same* race/religion doing great in another country doing differently because they are of a different class: Asian Muslims doing great in America but not so well in Europe, and I'm sure there are other examples.

The people who become racists do so because they are unintelligent and fail to realize that people are only a reflection of their shared backgrounds and experiences that shaped those diasporas.

And yes, you are also right that the Americans had the luxury of selecting the cream of the crop from Asian Muslim countries (due to the ocean in between), whereas the Europeans got refugees on foot, so obviously the latter are going to be from the lower class.

I for one welcome muslims into my community and previously enjoyed the contributions they made to Canadian society while I was still there. A while back I met a couple of Pakistani men who were travelling through the region and they seemed like perfectly nice fellows, but expressed disdain for the way muslims are treated when travelling in the United States, Canada, and Western Europe. When asked if they would travel to North America any time soon, they responded emphatically no, saying that they had no desire to be suspected of some crime solely because of their religion and nationality.

Western authorities need to do a lot of reconciliation if they want to be viewed favourably around the world any time soon.

Well, sir, it is people like you that are awesome.

 

[Panda]

How in the world does a 5% population de-Chrsitianize and "Islamicize" the remaining 95% of the population? Logic dictates that it is the *other* 95% that will "assimilate" the other 5%, not the other way around.

This is due to ever increasing muslim immigation, declining European birth rates, and an increase in EU influence.

'In progress' means exactly what it says. It doesn't mean it happens overnight.

It's just as silly as white Americans fearing that blacks would "de-white" whites, and no matter how you put it, this fear stems from racism and bigotry. You cannot justify it, no matter how hard you try.

We're talking about the sad state of European culture, not about the well-being of African-Americans, which is as relevant to this discussion as that muslims killed thousands of US civilians on 9/11. Hence, the only point for you to drag this into the thread is because you have no point.

Instead of fear-mongering and demonizing immigrant populations, you should try building bridges with them and addressing their very real concerns. Open up a dialogue and you will find that they aren't as different as you think, and that they are humans just like you.

From the top of my hat:
Finnish businesses don't support extremist and terrorist movements; Finnish priests don't preach that it's wrong to steal from Christians but ok to steal from heathens; Finns commit less crime per capita;

Sources: Finnish Ministery of Interior, Suomen Kuvalehti, Helsingin Sanomat, Turun Sanomat.

Bottom line: While they're human, they are not like me.

Furthermore, I think that the Occident should reflect on how they get so angry when Oriental immigrant populations migrate to their countries and do so peacefully/unarmed. Imagine then the anger of people living in Oriental countries that Occidental countries invade and conquer by force.

Take care.

What a load of BS.

In thread after thread, you moap about Europeans lumping all muslims together, yet generalise all Westeners as invaders. That even though most EU countries opposed, and continue to, the Iraq war. Further proof that your case is void of substance.

And the West doesn't need immigrants who need to be schooled how to use toilets or that brutalizing women isn't acceptable to express love. We have enough unemployment and social welfare collectors allready.

 

[Winner]

'In progress' means exactly what it says. It doesn't mean it happens overnight.



We're talking about the sad state of European culture, not about the well-being of African-Americans, which is as relevant to this discussion as that muslims killed thousands of US civilians on 9/11. Hence, the only point for you to drag this into the thread is because you have no point.



From the top of my hat:
Finnish businesses don't support extremist and terrorist movements; Finnish priests don't preach that it's wrong to steal from Christians but ok to steal from heathens; Finns commit less crime per capita;

Sources: Finnish Ministery of Interior, Suomen Kuvalehti, Helsingin Sanomat, Turun Sanomat.

Bottom line: While they're human, they are not like me.



What a load of BS.

In thread after thread, you moap about Europeans lumping all muslims together, yet generalise all Westeners as invaders. That even though most EU countries opposed, and continue to, the Iraq war. Further proof that your case is void of substance.

And the West doesn't need immigrants who need to be schooled how to use toilets or that brutalizing women isn't acceptable to express love. We have enough unemployment and social welfare collectors allready.

 

[CurtSibling]

Anyone here actually think that Islam will be tha much of a cultural threat to Europe?

Not really, as long as we Westerners can keep PC at bay.

The jihadists know how to use the 'do-gooder' mentality against us.


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[innonimatu]

I should make it clearer why I dont believe in any "muslim threat" to Europe: it's the opposite that's happening. A muslim Europe will never come about because islam cannot handle the modern world. The modern world and its ideas, that Europe created and exported, are destroying the basis of islam.

Christianty was more flexible and had centuries to adapt, and even so all christian denominations have a hard time even surviving in a very attenuated form.
I know I will be offending some people, but I really dont see how can a religion that is entirely based on obeying rules written 13 centuries ago, in a completely different context, survive the clash with the modern world. Looking at Turkey I guess it may survive, but its hold over people will be very weakened.

 

[CurtSibling]

@innonimatu:

Good post!

The religions have to evolve with the times or they will decay and atrophy.

Humanity cannot be held in chains, and will not tolerate outdated theology trying to hold sway...

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[GenMarshall]

The religions have to evolve with the times or they will decay and atrophy.

I will have to agree with you. Religions should evolve and change through time otherwise they would just become stagnant. And yes Curt, I am starting to question many of the doctrines of the Church.

 

[CurtSibling]

Dude, I have no problem with you being religious and never have.

If you are trying to define a spiritual life on your own terms, then I welcome that!

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