Europeans and Growth of Islam

[Sidhe]

I will have to agree with you. Religions should evolve and change through time otherwise they would just become stagnant. And yes Curt, I am starting to question many of the doctrines of the Church.

The Catholic church didn't pick up on that till half way through the 20th century,, if you ask me.

 

[Sidhe]

Being racist is disliking someone for the characteristics they were born with.

A person isn't "born" with Muslim. They CHOOSE to be that religion.

It is a religious CHOICE. It is a FREE WILL decision of lifestyle. It is choosing one culture over another. It is choosing to spurn the Western lifestyle.

That cannot be racist.

Someone can disagree with, and dislike someone elses' choices, especially when they negatively affect their life.

RACISM is holding someone's RACE against them. You cannot change your RACE. You CAN change your religion. It is your belief system.

==================


Also, in regards to Europe's growth of Islam, it is not so much the growth of Islam as it is the decline of the European.

The demographics cannot be denied.

Birth rates in Europe are now at less that 1 child per couple for indigenous Europeans. For the immigrant Muslims groups, this number is 4 per couple.

There is no way to get away from the fact that there will be no Christian Europe if it is destroyed from within.

A bigot by any other name, would smell as foul.

OK if you want to play the semantics game, I figured the guy hated arab immigrants? But whatever? HE was objecting not just to their religion but their non inclusory culture.

 

[Mega Tsunami]

Just got back from using my time machine and brought this map with me.

Notice “The British Isles”

 

[Sidhe]

Winner was right! OMFG Still at least Czechs are ok.

 

[REDY]

There is no way to get away from the fact that there will be no Christian Europe if it is destroyed from within.

I rather see Europe withing all religions, because all were made according very old moral rules. But I dont prefer violent banning christian, muslim or jewish symbols and hate people because their belief. Radical Jew is not much better than radical muslim. The main difference causes problem in my sight is that in Europe is traditional individualism. The "less developed" cultures have another cultural traditions which are not according it. The people who are more influenced by west individualism have often wealth and dont need to be immigrants.
I know that my English lowers level of what I wanted tell.

 

[REDY]

Mega Tsunami: I saw it before, its nice. Notice Russia too;-)

 

[Salah-Al-Din]

Being racist is disliking someone for the characteristics they were born with.

A person isn't "born" with Muslim. They CHOOSE to be that religion.

It is a religious CHOICE. It is a FREE WILL decision of lifestyle. It is choosing one culture over another. It is choosing to spurn the Western lifestyle.

That cannot be racist.

Someone can disagree with, and dislike someone elses' choices, especially when they negatively affect their life.

RACISM is holding someone's RACE against them. You cannot change your RACE. You CAN change your religion. It is your belief system.

Now you are playing games with semantics. When people use the word "racism" it refers to bigotry in general.

Otherwise, do you think people would be OK with anti-Semitism? Are *you* OK with anti-Semitism? Yes or no? I want an answer from you, just so that we may expose your bigotry for all to see. Please tell me: is it OK for a German Nazi or an Islamic radical to hate Jews??? If the answer is no, then why is it OK for Christian fundamentalists like yourself to hate Muslims? And if you do indeed differentiate between anti-Semitism and anti-Muslim, then *that* in itself is a bigotted differentiation.

I demand an answer from you. I demand you to say if it is OK for a person to be anti-Jewish. It is people like you who pave the way for events like the Holocaust. But I guess to you it would be OK if all the Muslims of Europe were detained, put in concentration camps, and gassed. That, after all, is not racist, right? A Final Solution perhaps?

The bigotry against Muslims on this very forum JUSTIFIES the reciprocal reaction from those immigrant Muslims, does it not?? I haven't lived in Europe, but if Europeans are like the people on this forum who say such bigotted things against Muslims, then I am not at all surprised that European Muslims would not want to integrate with such racists and bigots like yourselves. I would in fact empathize with them, if this is what they face in Europe. If this is the attitude by you supremacists, then everything the Muslims of Europe do is justified.

'In progress' means exactly what it says. It doesn't mean it happens overnight.

Please, stop playing word games. Your post implied that it was impending. Not only can it not happen overnight, but it cannot happen in the forseeable future, both short-term and long-term and very long-term. Therefore, what is the point of saying it at all? Unless you enjoy discussing impossibilities for the sheer joy of it? If it is not going to happen overnight and if it is not going to happen at all in the short and long-term, then what is your point and why are you bringing it up? Is not your post irrelevant, and only designed to fear-monger and foster xenophobia?

We're talking about the sad state of European culture, not about the well-being of African-Americans, which is as relevant to this discussion as that muslims killed thousands of US civilians on 9/11. Hence, the only point for you to drag this into the thread is because you have no point.

And Americans killed hundreds of thousands of Muslims.

Finnish businesses don't support extremist and terrorist movements; Finnish priests don't preach that it's wrong to steal from Christians but ok to steal from heathens; Finns commit less crime per capita;

Sources: Finnish Ministery of Interior, Suomen Kuvalehti, Helsingin Sanomat, Turun Sanomat.

Bottom line: While they're human, they are not like me.

I don't understand the relevance of your post, but I suspect you enjoy discussing irrelevant things.

In thread after thread, you moap about Europeans lumping all muslims together,

lol @ your spelling. It only fits too well with your bigotted attitude; usually bigotted people are simpletons. It is "mope" and not "moap."

yet generalise all Westeners as invaders.

I do not generalize all Westerners as invaders. I have in a multitude of posts instead called on both the Western people and the Muslim people to build bridges of understanding.

That even though most EU countries opposed, and continue to, the Iraq war. Further proof that your case is void of substance.

First of all, my post had nothing to do with anger towards Europe. I simply made a general statement that Westerners should reflect on how they hate peaceful unarmed civilians entering their homelands, so imagine the reaction of Muslims being invaded by armed Westerners.

And the West doesn't need immigrants who need to be schooled how to use toilets or that

You have no idea as to how insensitive your statements are. It has nothing to do with Muslims not knowing how to use toilets. Most of the world's population, including Africans and Asians (of all religions) cannot afford daily food so how do you expect them to own a proper toilet? In these poor countries, people make do with what they can, and they do not have toilet seats like wealthy people of the West have. Yes, I say wealthy. You are all wealthy if you are using the internet. Thank God, and praise the Lord that you were not born into a life of poverty and despair AS MOST of the world's population is. Have empathy for your fellow man and do not mock your neighbor if he is poor, lest that God remove your wealth to teach you humility.

I should make it clearer why I dont believe in any "muslim threat" to Europe: it's the opposite that's happening. A muslim Europe will never come about because islam cannot handle the modern world. The modern world and its ideas, that Europe created and exported, are destroying the basis of islam.

Then, do you care explaining why Islam is the fastest growing religion? Even if you exclude the high birth rates of Muslims, and *just* count the converts: Islam takes in the most converts from the Western world. Why?

I can't see what Islam has to offer to the modern Western society. As it seems, it is backwards in almost everything, so besides cuisine and art, what could it offer?

The same logic can be used for Africans and blacks: "All of Africa is backwards. We don't need those dirty N*****s; what do they have that is advanced and that can be offered to the West??? Nothing other than their cuisine and music!" Do you not see how you have adopted an attitude of bigotry? It is not morally sound to take such an attitude. Does not history teach you that??? Does not your own moral mooring teach you that??? I implore upon you all to abandon bigotry; it is odious no matter which group of people it is applied to.

----------------

Would any of you refuse to eat with me because I am a Muslim?

 

[Sidhe]

Now you are playing games with semantics. When people use the word "racism" it refers to bigotry in general.

Otherwise, do you think people would be OK with anti-Semitism? Are *you* OK with anti-Semitism? Yes or no? I want an answer from you, just so that we may expose your bigotry for all to see. Please tell me: is it OK for a German Nazi or an Islamic radical to hate Jews??? If the answer is no, then why is it OK for Christian fundamentalists like yourself to hate Muslims? And if you do indeed differentiate between anti-Semitism and anti-Muslim, then *that* in itself is a bigotted differentiation.

I demand an answer from you. I demand you to say if it is OK for a person to be anti-Jewish. It is people like you who pave the way for events like the Holocaust. But I guess to you it would be OK if all the Muslims of Europe were detained, put in concentration camps, and gassed. That, after all, is not racist, right? A Final Solution perhaps?

The bigotry against Muslims on this very forum JUSTIFIES the reciprocal reaction from those immigrant Muslims, does it not?? I haven't lived in Europe, but if Europeans are like the people on this forum who say such bigotted things against Muslims, then I am not at all surprised that European Muslims would not want to integrate with such racists and bigots like yourselves. I would in fact empathize with them, if this is what they face in Europe. If this is the attitude by you supremacists, then everything the Muslims of Europe do is justified.




Please, stop playing word games. Your post implied that it was impending. Not only can it not happen overnight, but it cannot happen in the forseeable future, both short-term and long-term and very long-term. Therefore, what is the point of saying it at all? Unless you enjoy discussing impossibilities for the sheer joy of it? If it is not going to happen overnight and if it is not going to happen at all in the short and long-term, then what is your point and why are you bringing it up? Is not your post irrelevant, and only designed to fear-monger and foster xenophobia?



And Americans killed hundreds of thousands of Muslims.



I don't understand the relevance of your post, but I suspect you enjoy discussing irrelevant things.




lol @ your spelling. It only fits too well with your bigotted attitude; usually bigotted people are simpletons. It is "mope" and not "moap."



I do not generalize all Westerners as invaders. I have in a multitude of posts instead called on both the Western people and the Muslim people to build bridges of understanding.



First of all, my post had nothing to do with anger towards Europe. I simply made a general statement that Westerners should reflect on how they hate peaceful unarmed civilians entering their homelands, so imagine the reaction of Muslims being invaded by armed Westerners.



You have no idea as to how insensitive your statements are. It has nothing to do with Muslims not knowing how to use toilets. Most of the world's population, including Africans and Asians (of all religions) cannot afford daily food so how do you expect them to own a proper toilet? In these poor countries, people make do with what they can, and they do not have toilet seats like wealthy people of the West have. Yes, I say wealthy. You are all wealthy if you are using the internet. Thank God, and praise the Lord that you were not born into a life of poverty and despair AS MOST of the world's population is. Have empathy for your fellow man and do not mock your neighbor if he is poor, lest that God remove your wealth to teach you humility.



Then, do you care explaining why Islam is the fastest growing religion? Even if you exclude the high birth rates of Muslims, and *just* count the converts: Islam takes in the most converts from the Western world. Why?




The same logic can be used for Africans and blacks: "All of Africa is backwards. We don't need those dirty N*****s; what do they have that is advanced and that can be offered to the West??? Nothing other than their cuisine and music!" Do you not see how you have adopted an attitude of bigotry? It is not morally sound to take such an attitude. Does not history teach you that??? Does not your own moral mooring teach you that??? I implore upon you all to abandon bigotry; it is odious no matter which group of people it is applied to.

----------------

Would any of you refuse to eat with me because I am a Muslim?

Absolutely not, and don't confuse Katheryn with Europeans, most of the Europeans your referring to are US citizens, and or fundementalists, they are programmed by their media to behave that way, I for one say that you are welcome to this forum, and it's about time someone said something about the biggotted tone of some posters.

Winner is an unusual European, most of us are impartial in general.

Biggots shout louder than impartials though, that is the problem.



Racism is endemic, but that doesn't make it any the less hateful and repulsive.

Please note the poll on this thread.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=177827&highlight=Palestine

 

[Whomp]

US experience.

It is irrelevant to European situation.

Why is it so much different? Most of the Muslim immigrants coming to the US have left due to political or economic instability within their country. Sounds like the same old story to me.
http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/muslimlife/immigrat.htm
Is it because today's poor Muslims prefer your welfare state today?

Absolutely not, and don't confuse Katheryn with Europeans, most of the Europeans your referring to are US citizens, and or fundementalists, they are programmed by their media to behave that way, I for one say that you are welcome to this forum, and it's about time someone said something about the biggotted tone of some posters.

Winner is an unusual European, most of us are impartial in general.

Biggots shout louder than impartials though, that is the problem.



Racism is endemic, but that doesn't make it any the less hateful and repulsive.

Please note the poll on this thread.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=177827&highlight=Palestine

Sidhe how is the Palestinian issue relative to racism? The situation there is complex and many parties are complicit in their fault. In fact, your country is likely more complicit than any other with the agreements designed during WWI.
I suggest you listen to this interview. As Dovster said it's politicians in Israel and Palestine who need "do their job".

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4282350&postcount=24

 

[Sidhe]

Why is it so much different? Most of the Muslim immigrants coming to the US have left due to political or economic instability within their country. Sounds like the same old story to me.
http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/muslimlife/immigrat.htm
Is it because today's poor Muslims prefer your welfare state today?


Sidhe how is the Palestinian issue relative to racism? The situation there is complex and many parties are complicit in their fault. In fact, your country is likely more complicit than any other with the agreements designed during WWI.
I suggest you listen to this interview. As Dovster said it's politicians in Israel and Palestine who need "do their job".

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4282350&postcount=24

It's relevant becuase if you put up a poll saying would you support Jews or Arabs, you'd get the same result. In other words it's asking people to descriminate based on politics and religion. In other words it's correlatory.

 

[Whomp]

It's relevant becuase if you put up a poll saying would you support Jews or Arabs, you'd get the same result. In other words it's asking people to descriminate based on politics and religion. In other words it's correlatory.

It's not that simple. I disagree with how AIPAC pushes policy in the US but I also disagree how Hamas and Hizbollah do the same within the Muslim community. The bottom line is they need to solve these problems and live with each other. Neither is going anywhere anytime soon. Figure it out and deal. Jews and Muslims are getting along just fine in Skokie Illinois so what's the problem?

 

[Sidhe]

It's not that simple. I disagree with how AIPAC pushes policy in the US but I also disagree how Hamas and Hizbollah do the same within the Muslim community. The bottom line is they need to solve these problems and live with each other. Neither is going anywhere anytime soon. Figure it out and deal. Jews and Muslims are getting along just fine in Skokie Illinois so what's the problem?

Politics, and your government vetoing all sanctions against Israel and not vetoing all those against Palestine isn't helping at all, in fact it's making it worse.

If the UN is a paper tiger, it's because the US has made it so, by vetoing 37 resolutions against Israel.

 

[Whomp]

Politics, and your government vetoing all sanctions against Israel and not vetoing all those against Palestine isn't helping at all, in fact it's making it worse.

The EU is Israel's largest trading partner, accounting for 27% of Israeli exports and 43% of Israeli imports. Your country started the problem so maybe you should finish it.

 

[Sidhe]

The EU is Israel's largest trading partner, accounting for 27% of Israeli exports and 43% of Israeli imports. Your country started the problem so maybe you should finish it.

We can't without asking the UN. and anything we do that even slightly favours one side ie Israel will be vetoed.

They have to sort it out for themselves yes, but the US isn't and hasn't ever made this situation any easier. Except when it was offering peace deals. Or mediating.

 

[sysyphus]

Am I the only one here relishing in the irony that the UK, France and the Netherlands on this map have each been taken over by a country they once colonised?

 

[Quasar1011]

Am I the only one here relishing in the irony that the UK, France and the Netherlands on this map have each been taken over by a country they once colonised?

You are forgetting Spain, which colonized Morocco (at least part of it).

 

[Sidhe]

You are forgetting Spain, which colonized Morocco (at least part of it).

the all have excpet germany maybe, the point is that the agressors have been taken over by the agresses. It's a what would happen if the situation was reversed sort of thing.

Although strictly speaking if Turkey was shown It should be owned by a conglomeration of European countries. Ottoman EMpire attacked Europe, but luckilly was eventually beaten off or we'd all be speaking Turkish.

Part of Turkey is technically in Europe as is about 10 degrees of longitude East.

 

[REDY]

You are forgetting Spain, which colonized Morocco (at least part of it).

And Italy conquered Albania before WW2

 

[Quasar1011]

I thought that was during the war?

 

[Bast]

Good point. The difference was that Jews were actually more productive than Europeans.

And, this is also important, they avoided assimilation mostly because Europeans didn't want that to happen. Once Europeans lifted the barriers and allowed them to leave ghettos, they started assimilating very quickly.

European culture had jews for centuries without being jewisized. Don't worry european culture will survive. There are pretty big problems with integrating the muslims though.

I have to comment here.

Firstly, Judaism in Europe had always been non-proselytizing. That's not true of Islam right now.

Secondly, like Winner said after the Jewish emancipation, Jews integrated very quickly into European culture. That's how the reform movements started in Judaism, the emergence of secular Jews and also dropping of Yiddish in favour of national languages. Muslims are already emancipated in Europe so they have that opportunity right now.