EX? - War? What is it good for?

[SJ Frank]

Of course we want to get every wonder we can from here on out. After Industrialization kicks in, we'll have more shields than we know what to do with. Might as well get wonders.

As soon as the current wonder finishes, I'm going to start a palace prebuild for Shakespears. All that will cost us is delaying the factory in one of our city by a few turns, which isn't much of a cost at all. Suffrage is the one wonder that doesn't require prebuilding, all we need to do is prebuild for the factory instead.

Oh, and I will definitely pop as many workers as I can from Ganges before the GA, thx for the reminder.

 

[SJ Frank]

Well, I didn't follow through on either of my promises in the previous
post. I choose military over wonder prebuild, thinking that with our
GA production, nabbing Shakespears should be no problem. Ganges
also didn't pop as workers as it needed to reach 12. Why? Well, read on


0) 750 AD

- Scrolling through our cities, I change the entertainer in Karachi to
tax man. Hey, one gold is one gold. I also swap Punjab from marketplace
to aqueduct, and assign one of its worker to a mountain, it will fill
up its food box in 4, and complete an aqueduct in 21 turns.
- Babylon has a few long bows walking around, while we counter with a
single regular spear in our border city? I will make reinforcing the
north my top proriorty.
- I also wake the spare warrior in Ganges and send him to Indus for
anti-flip suppression.

1) 760 AD

- A lot of projects finish around the empire, I choose a science
orientated project for everyone of them.
- The Zulu Aztec war has exposed an unclaimed diamond. I'm going to try
to grab that. I swap Ganges to Settler, and upgraded our galley to
caravel.

2) 770 AD

- In between turns, the Aztec are destroyed.
- The Zulus have Dye on sale, I bought it for ROP, Gunpowder, WM, 1gpt,
plus a few change. Shaka is Gracious!

3) 780 AD

- Upgrade a few pikes to Muskets here and there. MM a few cities here and
there.

4) 790 AD

- ToG comes in. I scroll ahead to get Newtons, wasting 134 shields. Next
up, Magnetism, in 4 turns at +171 gpt. Our science is sizzling!
- Golden Age!
- Both Madras and Calcutta are at 30 spt exactly, Madras is set to build
Muskets every other turn, while Calcutta has to catch up infrastructure.
- We have money to burn (+245 gpt), Punjab's aquaduct is rushed for 260
gold.

5) 800 AD

- Babylonian city of Akkad has completed Magellan's Voyage.

6) - 7) 810 - 820 AD

- Not much is happening. More troops being produced, more worker projects
being completed.
- Somewhere in there, our first and only jumbo comes into being, it is
currently on display in the Bombay City Zoo.

8) 830 AD

- Babs comes in and demands Ivory from us. I think a war right now will hurt
us more than Ivory can ever help them. So I cave.
- The AI's researched Metallugy and Free Artistry for us. How nice. I broker
physicas around for both techs and all of their gold.
- Madras immediately starts Shakespears, due in 14.
- Research is set to steam, in 4 turns at +202 gpt

9) 840 AD

- Our Diamond Gammbit team arrives at the potential city spot. Will settle
next turn. There is a Zulu settler pair two tiles away from us.

10) 850 AD

- Aha! The Zulu settler pair does not found the city. We got the choice spot.
Pune is founded on a hill, next to the diamond. The city currently has
two musket defenders, it needs a temple and a wall rushed ASAP, and more
reinforcements too. There is a boat next to Kolhapur, please load the three
muskets closest to it and send it onto to Zulu island. We do have ROP with
the Zulus, so you don't have to send the boat all the way around.

Industrialization will arrive in 6 turns, I rushed the university in
Calcutta this turn to get ready to prebuild for the factory. It wasn't a
good choice, I could have waited one more turn.

Knowing the Zulus, they will probably attack somebody sooner or later. So
I'd make reinforcing our Dacca-Sri-Lanka island our next priority after the
diamond city.

Remember, our GA will end on the 4th turn of Zarth's reign.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/Chandragupta-850AD.zip

 

[T-hawk]

Good turn. (What's a diamond in the game? You mean gems?) We're running away with this baby - just as long as we have coal, but we've got a ton of ex-jungle.

Erik Mesoy <<< Up Now
Zarth <<< On Deck

 

[Erik Mesoy]

Got it. And by the way... The Colossus is a guy with a spear. Did you realize that?

 

[Erik Mesoy]

Inherited turn: Rushed temple in pune for 160 gold. Veto stamped the granary in Bengal for a musketman. I want to see 2 defense units in every city. Good Grief, youd think the AI was running our empire with all the irrigation. Press Enter.
Greece declares war on Persia.
1: Ganges library->university.
Bombay Musket->Colosseum.
Pune Temple->Walls.
Calcutta University->Colosseum.
Lahore University->Bank.
2 pikes upgraded.
Veto granary in Punjab for a cathedral.
Hit enter.
2: Lotsa stuff built. Steam Power discovered, we have 1 source near Hamburg. Workers start railroading. 2 sources of Coal on Zulu continent, I hope to grab some of them.
3: Hurried Library in Pune for 360 gold.
Babylon and Persia have signed a military alliance against Greece! Zululand and Babylon have signed a military alliance against Greece!.
4: I've been working on the railroad...
5: Pune builds granary and starts musket to go with a settler.
6: I've been working on the railroad... Industry discovered. Several colloseum/university prebuilds changed to factories. Reseach begun on Electricity. Silks lost! I buy silks from greece again for Iron and Ivory. Iron is useless for us, and it might help him in his war. Ivory is the same. Keep Greece strong, they are in a 3 front war.
7: Ganges completes Factory, start Coal Plant. Other stuff built somewhere. Ganges is currently at 60 shields/turn.
8: Ganges finishes coal plant. Now running 80 shields a turn, Suffrage due in just 10 turns. I've been working on the railroad..
9:I've been working on the railroad...
10:I've been working on the railro- I'm having a heart attack! I'm dying! AAARRGGHHH... Next player please.

 

[Zarth]

got it, I'll play tomorrow

 

[SJ Frank]

Normally, I'm not one to criticise so quickly, but there are some major in the handling of Punes (our gem city).

First of all, the temple was rushed when there was no shield in the box. By doing that, you're spending double the amount than a normal rush. I guess you did that with all of Punes' rushes, wasting at least a thousand gold there. When a project is not urgent, it's always better to wait one turn for that initial shield before rush. Even if it is urgent, it is usually better to disband a unit for the initial shield, then rush.

Then there is the items that you rushed. Why rush every single culture building? It only needs enough culture to beat the former Aztec city next to it. The Zulus are certainly not going to rush buildings like we are, it will take them hundreds of turns to build up temple, library, cathedral, university (being Zulus, they may never get to the latter ones). There is no need for us to get those building right now.

If we had the money to waste, then the early rushes are not much of a problem, but by rushing these buildings, you have taken our reserve gold to below 1000, cutting into our interest earnings. With Wall Street, you should almost never take the gold reserve below 1000. Doing so in emergencies is okay (emergency like about to loose a city), but any building in Punes is certainly not emergency.

Then there is the problem with military reinforcement. Three muskets is NOT enough to hold that city. We are alone, on the Zulu continent. That's the Zulus, the most aggressive AI civ, an AI civ that has just finished off its neighbor and has a few dozen knights sitting around doing nothing. If the Zulus declare war right now, that city is toast, and we lose all of our cash rushed builds along with it.

The most important thing (and really the only thing) that you need to worry about a distant colony like Punes, is to just hold it. To hold a city, you need culture, you need military. Interestingly enough, with enough military doubling as anti-flip suppression, you don't even need culture. Anything else that you spend on that city is wasted, because the city will never produce anything for you. Keep that in mind the next time you're faced with another city like Punes. Ask yourself, do I have enough to hold that city right now? If the answer is yes, then forget about that city. Your attention and resources are much better spend in the core of your empire.

 

[Erik Mesoy]

Rush a worker for 80 gold, then the price for the rest is halved. So I can rush a temple for 160 gold, not 240. I did this with Pune each turn.
As for my culture buildings and the sttler, this is a case of 'sleepy gambit'.
I am hoping to grab a site north of Pune, pump more culture and more musketmen there, then perhaps culture flip some cities from the Zulu there. This might end up giving us 4 cities on the island, even with no war. Go look at Epic 13: Passive Aggression on RBCiv.
I think we have a chance at this. Three cities on the zulu island, and squish in some more for culture flips, we might even grab the ex-aztec land on this island! That would be funny.
I really hope there were no rules forbidding that, because then I have really got lot of... Pungent Weed.

 

[SJ Frank]

Okay, I was a little harsh on the previous post. Let me explain myself.

When I downloaded our 950AD save, I was expecting to see our little civ with a gold treasury of 4000+, gaining 200+ per turn, getting ready for some deficit researching once our GA is over. But what I saw instead was a 544 gold treasury at 100+ per turn. So my first reaction was, why is the treasury under 1K? But that's not suprising; we've done that a few times already . Then, I wanted to figure out where did all the money go. I scrolled around and found Pune!

You see, I'm a little sensitive about Pune. It's my city. My little gambit . I would have name it Frankfurt, had we not own that town already . So when I realized that Pune was the cause of our current financial difficulty... I was, err, not pleased. Had the next leader just followed through on my instructions, I thought, everything would be fine. Four happy faces in all of our cities for the price of a temple, a wall, and five muskets. That all I wanted Pune to be.

Did I consider the chance to flip a few cities on that island? Yes, I did. If we were able to flip one city, we'd get an additional source of Iron. As it turns out, if we flip another one, we'd get a second coal. But that's all we'd get. Those cities are far away enough from our capital that their production and commerce is never going to matter. In fact, every city that we own over there is going to be a financial drain on our core. I figure that since we are already in a winning position, there is no need to take that gamble. So I didn't go for it.

However, you did go for it. I realize now that I should not questioning your strategic choice. It simply reflects the difference between more a aggressive playing style on your part and a more conservative playing style on my part. (in fact, I'm learning to be more aggressive in my personal games because of you guys). I just have some problem with execution of the strategy, with the over spending and the lack of military support for our investment.

Here's what I think: winning or losing a culture war on the Zulu island is not going to affect our game out come in any way. So I want to keep it at that -- a side thread to our on going game. If we have the disposable resources to persue it, then let's keep it going, but I don't want to see so much resource spend on it that it affects our core, which is what happened during your turn. Anytime you spend half of a civ's golden age income on a single city, you just might be over spending .

BTW, I have been following the RBCiv scene since the very beginning, mostly in lurking mode. I have a total of one post on the RBD forums. Try to guess which one .

 

[Zarth]

1. 960AD
We discover electricity, start medicine. Will be finished in 4 turns @+272gpt
Lots of factories completed, start coal plants
Shakespeare's Theatre finished in Madras, start factory
Karachi barracks finishes start factory
I build some railroad

2. 970Ad
Gordium finishes library, start factory
hurry settler in Pune
railroad

3. 980AD
Pune finishes settler, start harbour
railroad

4. 990AD
Our Golden Age ends
hurry harbour in Pune
railroad

5. 1000AD
Pune finishes harbor, start barracks
Bangalor finishes factory, start coal plant
Hurry univerity in Indus
New Delhi founded, start walls

6. 1010AD
We discover medicine, start sanitation
we finish a few coal plants
start aquaduct in indus
hurry barracks in Pune
hurry walls in New Delhi

7. 1020AD
Delhi factory -> coal plant
Pune barracks -> musketman
New Delhi walls -> temple
hurry indus aquaduct

8. 1020AD
Calcutta colosseum -> granary
Bengal coal plant -> colosseum
Indus aquaduct -> courthouse
Hurry pune musketman
Hurry new delhi temple

9.1030 AD
pune musketman, start musketman
new delhi temple, start cathedral
hyderabad factory ->coal plant

10. 1040AD
railroad

Persian destroyed by Greeks
We discover sanitation, start scientific method.
Suffrage constructed in Ganges, start hospital
Switch a few of cities to hospitals

11.1050AD
railroad
We give the babs ivory+theory of gravity+magnetism for mil tradition+worldmap+97gold+47gpt
silks
We give the persians theory of gravity+magnetism for wines+91gold+2gpt
silks. Xerxes is gracious to us now.

12. 1060AD

A few cities celebrate WLTKD.
constructing railroad

 

[T-hawk]

OK, let's stop spending on Pune already. I probably would've ferried some defensive troops over, rather than spending that much cash on it. Good progress all around, though.

10. 1040AD Persian destroyed by Greeks

We give the persians theory of gravity+magnetism for wines+91gold+2gpt silks.

Huh? Selling techs to a dead civ?

If Persia was actually wiped out, were we trading them any goods at the time? If so, now our reputation is tarnished, since the game buggily considers that US breaking a deal (since we didn't fulfill our obligation of 20 turns of resource to them).... nothing that we can do about it though.

Exsanguination is supposed to get back from his trip tonight. Ex, you can PM me the got-it if you're still having trouble posting.

 

[Zarth]

10. 1040AD Persian destroyed by Greeks
We give the persians theory of gravity+magnetism for wines+91gold+2gpt silks

OOps......it should of course be "Greeks destroyed by persians"

 

[T-hawk]

If it was the Greeks destroyed, then yes our reputation is now kaput. Looking back, I see on Erik Mesoy's turn 4 that he traded Iron + Ivory to Greece, which was less than 20 turns ago. (No knock on you, Erik, unless Greece was down to like two cities and imminently doomed.) The game stupidly considers that US breaking a deal, so we won't be able to trade our resources for anything other than per-turn payments or resources anymore. Shouldn't matter too much now since we won't need to trade resources for tech ever again.

 

[Erik Mesoy]

I dont think thats a knock on me. I traded stuff to Greece to keep them a bit stronger in the war. When I sold them the... stuff... They had not lost a single city yet.

Oh D*mnit, as Cptn. Carrot says.

 

[SJ Frank]

I think our reputation is still fine, because when Erik traded with the Greeks, he included the Greek Silks as part of the deal. Later, when the Greek Silk city was conquered, it was the Greeks that broke the deal, not us

I caught that at the time, and I remember thinking: hey, that's the way to buy insurance against ruining reputations.

 

[SJ Frank]

Where is Ex?

 

[T-hawk]

He was still having problems posting; he said he'd PM me on Thursday if he'd be able to play. Haven't heard from him yet, but I'll give him until tonight.

 

[T-hawk]

Inherited turn:

Checking diplomacy; I renew RoPs with everyone for as much as I can get. Our reputation for trading goods does indeed look intact.

I decide to sell Medicine to Persia because the tech is useless in the short-term - and because he'll pay 200 + 131/turn for it.

I also do want to get Nationalism, giving us effective immunity to getting attacked, and access to the techs beyond it. So I trade Steam Power (at 2nd-civ monopoly price) and Medicine (at 3rd) to Babylon for it and 21gpt. Then I go back to Persia and sell him Steam Power @3rd for another 53 gpt.

Hum, 3 turns to Scientific Method and no cities are prebuilding ToE and Hoover? Well, yeah, I guess Calcutta and Ganges should finish building their hospitals before starting the wonders. I use the Persian cash to rush a colosseum at Ganges and swap to hospital (it'll build the remaining 40 shields by itself this turn.)

Lahore switches from coal plant (we'll have Hoover soon) to hospital. Bombay and Hamburg colosseums (it's citizens are all happy ) to riflemen. Madras also to rifleman - it has enough overlap that it'll be happy staying at size 12 without a hospital.

1070 AD: All the workers begin the Calcutta Mountain Railroad. Ganges begins a prebuild for ToE.

Sci Meth discovered, research to Replaceable Parts (will finish before ToE does.) Calcutta begins a Palace for Hoover. Bengal starts Battlefield Medicine (not that we'll ever use it )

1100 AD: Workers join to Calcutta to jump it to size 20. Palace (and therefore Hoover) due in 8 at exactly 100 shields/turn.

1120: Rep Parts finishes. ToE is due in 4 so we can do one more research before it finishes. Set to Corporation. We have 4 rubber! Persia has 3 that are in jungles and not roaded yet. Babylon doesn't seem to have any.


1150: I dispatch a galleon full of infantry over to Pune. DO NOT WASTE MONEY RUSHING INFANTRY IN PUNE.

1170: The last interesting turn before the space race begins. We get:
The Corporation, Theory of Evolution, Atomic Theory, Electronics, and Hoover Dam.

I also merged workers and mined tiles to get each city to optimal population at no or minimal growth.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/chandragupta-1170ad.zip

 

[T-hawk]

What's up with Exsanguination is that he had a run-in with a moderator and is taking a (hopefully short) break from posting. He PMed me that he still wants to play; I've swapped with him this round; he says he can play on Friday.

 

[SJ Frank]

Sorry to hear about Ex's trouble. What happened? Or it is something that shouldn't be disclosed on the open forum.

Ex is the one that started this game, and I'd certainly like to see him finish it. If neccessary, T-hawk, you could email the sav games and post the turns for him.

Speaking of finishing the game, I think it's about time we take a vote about how we want to it. We have our choice of UN, Space, and even Domination, RBEpic 13 style .

IMO, this game was won way back when the AIs were fighting among themselve before we ever met them. None of them bothered to build any culture until we expanded up to their borders. The games has been, so far, peaceful (mission accomplished?), and uneventful. Since none of the victory options are particularly challenging (even the Domination victory will be fairly easy, since we know how to do it, and our tech advantage will ensure Infantry vs Calvary and MA vs. Tanks all the way through), my vote is to end the game as early as possible, via UN.

I'm certainly open to any other persuasive arguements though.

edit: I'm NOT playing right now. If Ex. is going play this Friday, I'll wait until after his turn so as to not disturb the batting order too much.