Examining the Golden Dawn party

[trader/warrior]

It's not like the nazi's before they seized power had their election program as "Become an authoritarian regime, exterminate the jews and start a world war."

I'm seriously worried about the trend all over Europe lately of far-right parties that all rely on some common issues; Extreme policies on immigration and foreign cultures, a general image of restoring past greatness and national romantiscism, and the need for strong decisive leaders. They all say they are for democracy, they all say they are nothing like fascists, not racist they just want equal treatment for the "persecuted majority" and to protect their culture.

I'm no expert on fascism or far-right movements, but if this doesn't ring off all the alarm bells of a seriously dangerous ideology, something is wrong. Can't help but think that with the era of the world wars fading into history, despite all the education and constantly being reminded to never forget, we have forgotten. Cause these people are just fascists with a fresh label to make them more palatable for the masses, and it looks like with time they might actually win.

So, in my eyes, they're all friggin fascists and breivik-enablers.

 

[Traitorfish]

I think GD got their reputation for being pro-nazi due to some voters of theirs who took part in fights against anarchists in the center of Athens.

I think the fact that the organisation began as the openly anti-Semitic and neo-fascist Chrysi Avgi journal had something to do with it. Not to say that their ideology may not have mutated since (they've managed to go from agnostic to Hellenic Neopagan to Orthodox in the same period, so there's apparently some plasticity there), but that there's a bit more to it than just guesswork.

@Truronian: given their ancient greek rhetoric i am pretty sure their emblem is based on some ancient greek motif. I will try to find something about it.

It is, but the swastikas was an ancient Germanic symbol, so that hardly undermines the resonance.

 

[kramerfan86]

Their leader did the nazi salute at one point after a victory correct? Im not sure Id buy his public claims they arent neo-nazis, those claims show he and his cohorts are intelligent enough to know that isnt a stance that sells to voters.

 

[Kyriakos]

I did search for that, but i am unsure just how trustworthy the wiki page (among others) is. It seems to be 100% against GD (that much is obvious). That does not have to mean it is not true, just makes me wish there was more info around.

And the golden dawn magazine was not the actual party, probably at the time they were some sort of organization. If today they are anti-semitic then they just marginalize themselves since the jewish people in Greece post WW2 are a shadow of their former glory, and not really influencing society in any obvious way, so it would be unrealistic to assume such positions against them on even such fears.

I only know the rhetoric of the party up to now, and it does seem similar to the nationalist Laos one which it largely replaced anyway. A bit more to the right, yes, but that does not make them different than other right-wing parties throughout the continent.

 

[Traitorfish]

And the golden dawn magazine was not the actual party, probably at the time they were some sort of organization.

I'm aware that, but it doesn't negate the fact of the organisational continuity, or the fact that a number of senior members of Golden Dawn (including Michaloliakos himself) were on the staff of the original journal. When the person you are calling a Nazi used to write openly pro-Nazi literature, it's only fair to acknowledge that you're going on more than a gut-feeling.

I only know the rhetoric of the party up to now, and it does seem similar to the nationalist Laos one which it largely replaced anyway. A bit more to the right, yes, but that does not make them different than other right-wing parties throughout the continent.

Pretty sure that these guys,

Aren't a thousand miles from ol' Addie themselves.

 

[Kyriakos]

Are those the ones who support the ressurection of greater Hungary?

Not very sure if GD are in favor of the ressurection of the Megale Idea, although by now it is mostly seen as a poetic sentiment and not really part of any actual plan. Unlike up to 1922, when it was very real state policy.

And yes, i know i have a Hagia Sophia avatar- but at least i created the model myself

 

[Arwon]

Personally i am not sure, but this is going in circles. The mines- true or not? evidence? Greece for Greeks- well, there are 2 million illegals (in a country of 11 million legals), so it is not a very right-wing policy to want most or all (rhetoric) of them out.

Those numbers aren't accurate. In 2006 there were 11 million people in Greece and only 600 000 foreign citizens.

 

[r16]

me being a Turk , ı am probably quite unqualified to say anything on the subject even before me being r16 , but Greek extremism is not much different other extremisms that would sprout up elsewhere if things got equally bad . Only significance being they be next door , first on the list .

 

[Masada]

Really? I guess you never heard of selective use of known terms for reason of creating soundbites. In fact mentioning Sparta (which btw was far more than a police state) got them instant airplay, which i trust is most of what they wanted.

So Golden Dawn are just a bunch of media hounds willing to use objectionable materiel to get airtime? That's... rather, well, pathetic. And I'm sure it was far more than a police state, that just happens to be its worst side, but damned if I can think of a single good one.

Also nice try on making a strawman, but your strawman is on fire (probably commited suicide due to its insignificance ) since they are not for deporting all immigrants, merely illegal immigrants, and last time i checked this is a position of most right parties.

Eh, Golden Dawn MP Ilias Panagiotaros seems to want to deport all 2.5 million immigrants.

As for mines in the border, got a source? Or is it just another piece of hay to you.

Yes a few.

 

[Kyriakos]

I watched the video, that mp is on it only very shortly, and he is asked vaguely about deporting immigrants, to which you cannot even tell with certainty if he understood the question was for illegals or not.

That said, even if he did mean all, he is just one mp. There is no constitutional way to deport legal immigrants, and GD are not exactly in a position to force a change of the constitution. So again it would have been a moot point.

I tried searching for land mines and GD but found nothing. In the videos it is simply stated, not presented as proof. If it is true then again they have another failed policy, which is quite severe and inhumane. Hardly makes them different than other right wing parties though. The point being that it does not explain by itself the use of the term neo-nazi which persistently branded them in the news.

 

[Traitorfish]

To be honest with you, the fact that this debate amounts to "neo-Nazis, or just fascists?" tells you everything you need to know about these buggers.

 

[Kyriakos]

I guess, but semiologically there is a great difference, which was used in the media reporting of them. It would have been different if they were presented as a sort of Greek BNP, rather than a neo-nazi party. By this i mean that the neo-nazi accusation may have been used by some so as to further push this country in the periphery of Europe, which is what i am reacting to.

 

[Traitorfish]

You almost seem to be suggesting that you're no more interested in the actual character of Golden Dawn than those you're contesting, you're just interested in how their electoral success reflects on the rest of Greece.

 

[Kyriakos]

This is not that strange, given that i do not plan to vote for them and care little of their future. But i do care about attacks on the country.
I still believe firmly that their 7% was mostly a vote of reaction. Now they may not be monsters, but still anyone could see that in normal (or at least less severe than now) conditions they would have never entered the parliament.
But it seems that the media were all too eager to present an even more negative, sensationalist image of them, for their own agenda.

 

[Masada]

tl;dr

fascism is fine, insulting Greece is not.

 

[Leoreth]

If I was a patriotic Greek, I'd join the attacks on Chrysi Avgi, because it's them who make the country look bad, not their detractors.

 

[Kyriakos]

tl;dr

fascism is fine, insulting Greece is not.

'strawmen are fine' at any rate with you

 

[Kyriakos]

If I was a patriotic Greek, I'd join the attacks on Chrysi Avgi, because it's them who make the country look bad, not their detractors.

This thread has exactly as a reason to exist this issue, to try to establish what Golden Dawn is. I mostly stated that i do not know (and it was no socratic professed ignorance, but a real lack of info). I am mostly reacting to the image presented of that party by media, both greek and foreign, and try to find something closer to the truth. Be certain that if they are nazi i am not sympathising with them; in fact even if they are merely a common far-right party i am not sympathetic.

 

[NedimNapoleon]

) since they are not for deporting all immigrants, merely illegal immigrants, and last time i checked this is a position of most right parties.

who would want to immigrate to Greece

 

[Kyriakos]

who would want to immigrate to Greece

Are you for real? The issue is those illegals who already are here.