Existence in another life - atheist perspective

Even still, you are not occupying the same location as your copies, so you would have slightly different views. (I said that earlier in my post. You only read half of it I see. :p)

Maybe from a different angle, but still - they are all the same in different places.
 
But would you experience all three persons at once?
If they're having identical experiences, how would you tell? What's the difference between a "yes" and a "no" answer to this?
 
Maybe from a different angle, but still - they are all the same in different places.

Thus it's different. You can't give someone different things and still call them the same.

Ever see/heard of the commercial with the guy angry at the paper machine or something, and snaps at a co-worker? And then the entire office soon goes into a fist-fight because of a slight mistake? Had it not have jammed, (paper a millimeter, maybe, to the right) none of that would have happened.

The Butterfly effect, Chaos theory, whatever. A mind state is highly dependent on initial conditions, and the vast amount of different variables. You might be in a very slightly good mood today, and you play it safe whilst driving, or in a bad mood, and drive slightly faster, and end up in those no-win situations at the light, right infront of a cop, or something.
 
Thus it's different. You can't give someone different things and still call them the same.
Yes you can. I can say that I can give one kid a GI-Joe action figure and another kid a Barbie Doll and shout, "here kids I got you some toys".

Ever see/heard of the commercial with the guy angry at the paper machine or something, and snaps at a co-worker? And then the entire office soon goes into a fist-fight because of a slight mistake? Had it not have jammed, (paper a millimeter, maybe, to the right) none of that would have happened.
Never seen it. Sounds rediculous. Your point?

The Butterfly effect, Chaos theory, whatever. A mind state is highly dependent on initial conditions, and the vast amount of different variables. You might be in a very slightly good mood today, and you play it safe whilst driving, or in a bad mood, and drive slightly faster, and end up in those no-win situations at the light, right infront of a cop, or something.
Are you just giving me random things to throw at me so that you can hope that I will forget our previous discussion?
 
Yes you can. I can say that I can give one kid a GI-Joe action figure and another kid a Barbie Doll and shout, "here kids I got you some toys".
Your example doesn't support your argument.
 
But don't you agree that the whole focus is onto the mirror itself and not what you hear or see around you?

The thing of importance here is that they're all experiencing different things, regardless of how big or small the differences between the experiences are.
 
The thing of importance here is that they're all experiencing different things, regardless of how big or small the differences between the experiences are.

How can you go on saying they are experiencing different things when all of them are hearing and seeing the same thing at unison?
 
The thing of importance here is that we're all experiencing different things.
addon:

In this example, we're all of the same nature but are being nurtured differently.
 
The thing of importance here is that we're all experiencing different things.
addon:

In this example, we're all of the same nature but are being nurtured differently.

Only if we can all agree on that supposition; however, I must contest that we ought to look beyond your authoratitive premise and look at the practical consideration at hand here. That is: what make 3 people who happen to be the same different?
 
That is: what make 3 people who happen to be the same different?
This, I think, sums up the problem of this thread quite neatly: the attempt to define a contradiction in terms. Are they the same or are they different?
 
(A) If there's a possibility that what Miles Teg thinks of as his one and only lifetime is actually his second (or third or more) lifetime?
(B) If we rewound the universe to a billion years ago, and let it develop from there according to its quantum probabilities, and did this over and over, what fraction of these universes would contain Miles Teg?

I think (A) is physically impossible, given the actual biology and physics of human minds and bodies. But I won't argue for that or even try to explain why.

I think (B) is a very interesting question, and what's interesting about it is that it's ill-posed. It's like asking, "What is the maximum number and lengths of hairs on your head that you can have and still qualify as bald?" It's not just that we'll never KNOW the answer. The question doesn't HAVE an answer. "Baldness" is inherently a vague concept. And so is "Miles Teg". In an alternate history, someone genetically just like our Miles Teg is born a year earlier - or a decade - or a century - and has different experiences and takes on a different personality as a result. Same person? There is no right answer. Again, it's not just that we don't KNOW the right answer: we can specify details of the alternate history until we're blue in the face, and it makes no difference. The question is not factual, it's pragmatic - it's about how we want to use the words "Miles Teg", or more generally, "same person".

That doesn't mean that anything goes. We can't say that in an alternate history, a fire hydrant would be Miles Teg. But we do have a wide latitude of reasonable options to choose from. Just as we can draw the cutoff line for "bald" at any of a variety of reasonable points, we can require various amounts of psychological and/or physical commonality before calling these hypothetical people "Miles Teg".

Now apply these points to the case of making two copies of a person. Say I'm strapped unconscious to a table, and a "copy machine" records my exact brain and body states down to the last neurotransmitter. Unfortunately, it has to pick apart my brain and body to get access to this information, leaving a pile of scraps on the floor. But not to worry! The machine makes TWO faithful, exact copies based on the information, using fresh proteins, fats, calcium, etc., mixed with equal portions of recycled scraps. When the machine finishes, the doctors write "A" in magic marker on one guy and "B" on the other guy. They wake up.

The question y'all have been asking is, which is the real Ayatollah So? A? B? Neither? Both?

Well, I would discourage a too-hasty assumption that the question has an answer. But - and this is the really really important point - if it does have an answer, it might still be the wrong question.

Here are some more useful questions: how should Ayatollah So on the day before the operation regard guys A and B? How should his friends and loved ones react? These questions, I think, DO have definite answers. And the answer to all of them is "Both", i.e., both A and B are rightful claimants to the legacy of Ayatollah So.
 
This, I think, sums up the problem of this thread quite neatly: the attempt to define a contradiction in terms. Are they the same or are they different?
I don't know. But I do know you can't define whatever they are as it is the same while saying they are different. Suppose the truth about many things are the same while being different rest entirely upon one of them being true while the other is false. So yeah it is a contradiction because it allows one truth being not entirely dependent on the other.
 
I think (A) is physically impossible, given the actual biology and physics of human minds and bodies. But I won't argue for that or even try to explain why.

I think (B) is a very interesting question, and what's interesting about it is that it's ill-posed. It's like asking, "What is the maximum number and lengths of hairs on your head that you can have and still qualify as bald?" It's not just that we'll never KNOW the answer. The question doesn't HAVE an answer. "Baldness" is inherently a vague concept. And so is "Miles Teg". In an alternate history, someone genetically just like our Miles Teg is born a year earlier - or a decade - or a century - and has different experiences and takes on a different personality as a result. Same person? There is no right answer. Again, it's not just that we don't KNOW the right answer: we can specify details of the alternate history until we're blue in the face, and it makes no difference. The question is not factual, it's pragmatic - it's about how we want to use the words "Miles Teg", or more generally, "same person".

That doesn't mean that anything goes. We can't say that in an alternate history, a fire hydrant would be Miles Teg. But we do have a wide latitude of reasonable options to choose from. Just as we can draw the cutoff line for "bald" at any of a variety of reasonable points, we can require various amounts of psychological and/or physical commonality before calling these hypothetical people "Miles Teg".

Now apply these points to the case of making two copies of a person. Say I'm strapped unconscious to a table, and a "copy machine" records my exact brain and body states down to the last neurotransmitter. Unfortunately, it has to pick apart my brain and body to get access to this information, leaving a pile of scraps on the floor. But not to worry! The machine makes TWO faithful, exact copies based on the information, using fresh proteins, fats, calcium, etc., mixed with equal portions of recycled scraps. When the machine finishes, the doctors write "A" in magic marker on one guy and "B" on the other guy. They wake up.

The question y'all have been asking is, which is the real Ayatollah So? A? B? Neither? Both?

Well, I would discourage a too-hasty assumption that the question has an answer. But - and this is the really really important point - if it does have an answer, it might still be the wrong question.

Here are some more useful questions: how should Ayatollah So on the day before the operation regard guys A and B? How should his friends and loved ones react? These questions, I think, DO have definite answers. And the answer to all of them is "Both", i.e., both A and B are rightful claimants to the legacy of Ayatollah So.
Asking the right question is the essence of thoughtfulness and Ayatollah So has hot the nail on the head. :hatsoff:

My opinion is that in an atheistic universe, none of this matters at all. Existence is only by chance as is the brief experience that people have as a separate entity within that existence. Issues of duplication or cloning are legal and cultural and anchored in the time of their occurrence. Once the universe is established as atheistic and based solely on probability, the only relevant questions have to do with the individuals and their relationship to one another. All larger contexts have been erased by the underlying assumptions.
 
Asking the right question is the essence of thoughtfulness and Ayatollah So has hot the nail on the head. :hatsoff:

My opinion is that in an atheistic universe, none of this matters at all. Existence is only by chance as is the brief experience that people have as a separate entity within that existence. Issues of duplication or cloning are legal and cultural and anchored in the time of their occurrence. Once the universe is established as atheistic and based solely on probability, the only relevant questions have to do with the individuals and their relationship to one another. All larger contexts have been erased by the underlying assumptions.
I am scared not because we have a moderator like you in this forum - guess what I mean by that- but because you have went to a direction where you left us no footprints for anyone to follow you.

I am having problem tackling your assertion about the atheistic universe concept. What the hell is this atheistic universe?
 
I am scared not because we have a moderator like you in this forum - guess what I mean by that- but because you have went to a direction where you left us no footprints for anyone to follow you.

I am having problem tackling your assertion about the atheistic universe concept. What the hell is this atheistic universe?
I took my cue from the thread title: an "atheistic perspective." To be an atheist one must have a particular view of the universe and I was trying to address the question in that context.

An "atheistic universe" is one where its creation is only by chance. It cannot be planned or imagined or designed. There is no larger context or meaning to it. It is purposeless. It may have a high or low probability of coming into existence and its underlying nature may be more "fixed" than "unfixed" depending upon other assumptions. "Fixed" refers the natural laws in play.

Its 13 billion year development must also be totally random process rooted in the natural laws of the universe and nothing more. All events, from the creation of galaxies to the creation of life happen because of the interaction of natural laws and chance.

And the evolution of life and consciousness is equally random and meaningless. An individual life form may have a "sense of purpose", but that is merely an artifact of evolution and irrelevant beyond the context of that life form's life and situation.

Is this clearer?
 
I took my cue from the thread title: an "atheistic perspective." To be an atheist one must have a particular view of the universe and I was trying to address the question in that context.

An "atheistic universe" is one where its creation is only by chance. It cannot be planned or imagined or designed. There is no larger context or meaning to it. It is purposeless. It may have a high or low probability of coming into existence and its underlying nature may be more "fixed" than "unfixed" depending upon other assumptions. "Fixed" refers the natural laws in play.

Its 13 billion year development must also be totally random process rooted in the natural laws of the universe and nothing more. All events, from the creation of galaxies to the creation of life happen because of the interaction of natural laws and chance.

And the evolution of life and consciousness is equally random and meaningless. An individual life form may have a "sense of purpose", but that is merely an artifact of evolution and irrelevant beyond the context of that life form's life and situation.

Is this clearer?

I don't know if that can be substantiated when all you are saying is that all atheists have the same cosmological argument about the origin of the Universe? Also your mention about purposeless strike to me that you are denoting an underlying attitude of existentialism. Not all atheist are existentialist?
 
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