Existing Buildings Discussion

[Flinx]

Already mentioned at another place:
to build guard dogs you need the wardog trainer. I think it would be more appropriate to need a guard dog trainer.

If i replace a castle with a star fort i cannot build city guards and supply trains anymore.
Maybe tweak the star fort to be a real replacement.

 

[Vokarya]

If i replace a castle with a star fort i cannot build city guards and supply trains anymore.
Maybe tweak the star fort to be a real replacement.

This needs a tweak to the City Guard XML, which is not mine so I don't want to mess with it. There is a <PrereqOrBuildings> in the schema, so that should work.

 

[Flinx]

Ok, then there would be still two adjustments to do: one for the city guard and another for the supply train.

 

[Vokarya]

Ok, then there would be still two adjustments to do: one for the city guard and another for the supply train.

Supply Train was moved to Trading Post. City Guard now requires Garrison AND Castle -- I think it was supposed to be moved to just Garrison, but the Garrison is a
<PrereqBuilding> and the Castle is a <PrereqBuildingClasses>, so they are both currently required.

 

[Vokarya]

I had a few more thoughts on when certain buildings should go obsolete.

• Brick Mason: Obsolete at Organic Cities. You're not building with traditional bricks anymore.
• Mad Scientist's Castle: Obsolete at Thought Scanning. I think it should match up with Insane Asylum.
• Mattress Store: Obsolete at Homo Superior. I have a feeling Homo superior would be genetically engineered to no longer need sleep, or at least much less.
• Parking Meters: Could go obsolete at either Skyroads or Teleportation. There should come a point when there is no more need for vehicles to be parked.
• Plastic Surgery Clinic: Obsolete at Mind Uploading. I think this should match up with Tattoo Parlor.
• Seal Maker: Obsolete at Compulsory Education. Once most people can read and write, seals become unnecessary.
• Step Reckoner Manufactory: Obsolete at Computers. Even clunky early computers can do better than clockworks.
• Tar Pit, Tar Refinery: Obsolete at Skyroads. Tar isn't needed for ships after Paddle Steamer, and Skyroads should make it unnecessary for roads as well.
• Tire Factory: Obsolete at Skyroads, like everything else automobile-related.

 

[Flinx]

Thanks for the adjustments!

 

[Il Principe]

I disagree with you only on the seal maker. although seals as in stamped in wax are more for decoration nowadays, other forms of seals are still important. Think about watersigns on paper money.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Or Notary Public. There are others that still use seals or "stamps" that do the same purpose.

JosEPh

 

[Vokarya]

I disagree with you only on the seal maker. although seals as in stamped in wax are more for decoration nowadays, other forms of seals are still important. Think about watersigns on paper money.

Watermarking paper money belongs to the National Mint. I just think that Prehistoric-/Ancient-Era buildings should go obsolete before the Modern Era. Otherwise, they clutter up the building list.

Maybe the Seal Maker could upgrade to something like Identification Bureau. I'm quite fond of building chains.

 

[Il Principe]

Watermarking paper money belongs to the National Mint. I just think that Prehistoric-/Ancient-Era buildings should go obsolete before the Modern Era. Otherwise, they clutter up the building list.

Maybe the Seal Maker could upgrade to something like Identification Bureau. I'm quite fond of building chains.

So am I Joseph mentioned notaries, also a good idea for this particular chain I think.

 

[ls612]

Supply Train was moved to Trading Post. City Guard now requires Garrison AND Castle -- I think it was supposed to be moved to just Garrison, but the Garrison is a
<PrereqBuilding> and the Castle is a <PrereqBuildingClasses>, so they are both currently required.

Oops, thanks for the catch!

 

[BlueGenie]

Potter's Hut lasts forever. I think Glass Blower or Glass Factory should replace it.

We still have pottery/china/ceramic today. Most if not all mugs are made of pottery and there's oven forms, teapots, plant pots, and so on. Glass doesn't replace pottery afaik.

On a different note, Quern comes very early now but still needs Grains, which isn't revealed until Agriculture, and still can't be manufactured until even later.

Cheers

 

[Hydromancerx]

On a different note, Quern comes very early now but still needs Grains, which isn't revealed until Agriculture, and still can't be manufactured until even later.

Yeah I had been meaning to fix that. I will get to it eventually.

 

[Vokarya]

We still have pottery/china/ceramic today. Most if not all mugs are made of pottery and there's oven forms, teapots, plant pots, and so on. Glass doesn't replace pottery afaik.

I just have an issue with the Potter's Hut still being buildable into the Galactic Era. I think it should go obsolete SOMEWHERE. There comes a point where pottery isn't used enough to be representable as a resource; in the Ancient and Classical eras, pottery is very heavily used. In the Modern Era, not so much. I'm leaning towards Plastics being the technology that makes the Potter's Hut obsolete.

 

[BlueGenie]

What about a Ceramic's Factory during the Industrial?
Plastics is also a resource used alongside ceramics of various kinds and isn't quite right for replacing pottery with. Even armour is today being enhanced with ceramic plating, as well as plastic infusions but for different reasons.
Smart Materials could be though. Smart Ceramics for Transhuman Era that is, and for Galactic.
Considering ceramics and pottery I'm not sure it should really ever be replaced, unless humans transcend to a point where they no longer need physical materials.

Cheers

 

[Vokarya]

What about a Ceramic's Factory during the Industrial?
Plastics is also a resource used alongside ceramics of various kinds and isn't quite right for replacing pottery with. Even armour is today being enhanced with ceramic plating, as well as plastic infusions but for different reasons.
Smart Materials could be though. Smart Ceramics for Transhuman Era that is, and for Galactic.
Considering ceramics and pottery I'm not sure it should really ever be replaced, unless humans transcend to a point where they no longer need physical materials.

Cheers

Ceramic plating and pottery vessels are two very different things. The Potter's Hut is an Ancient-era building that needs to be either obsoleted or replaced at some point. It almost needs a two-building chain: one for porcelain, in the early Medieval Era (early Chinese production), and then the Ceramics Factory in the Industrial Era.

 

[BlueGenie]

Potter's Hut's/workplace's must have been around at least until the Industrial Era. Some upgrades along the way might be good though, for instance glazing can come around Glass Making/Blowing and the non-heat conductive use of ceramics it can be set in somewhere. Lots more of course that can be set in but I don't see why one should overdo it with one material and not all others (bamboo for instance).

Easiest as I see it would be replacing Hut with Workshop somewhere along the line, and have that replaced by Factory in the Industrial, renaming it to Ceramic Factory for another upgrade in Modern. As for obsoleting I don't see why, having it replaced should be enough. Besides, come to think of it, we have another ceramic building earlier on too, in Brick Mason at Masonry.

Porcelain manufacturing shouldn't be touched or removed until the very earliest Transhuman Era and Smart Ceramics, preferably Galactic Era, and then the resource Porcelain (is there one?) should still be around giving +1happy face.

Cheers

 

[Vokarya]

I went through the World Wonders to make a list of all their prerequisites and costs to see if we can get a handle on re-costing Wonders. I found there were a bunch of Wonders that have redundant prerequisites (like I did for Technologies). Here's the list if you would like to remove the redundancies (or if there is a reason for them, please let me know).

• Alhambra (Requires Divine Right and Engineering): Remove Engineering (Engineering - Surveying - Architecture - Stained Glass - Education - Gunpowder - Divine Right)
• Ascension Gate (Requires Ascension and Teleportation): Remove Teleportation (Teleportation - Wormhole Traversal - Time Travel - Ascension)
• Baray (Requires Canal Systems and Masonry): Remove Masonry (Masonry - Monotheism - Monarchy - Construction - Canal Systems)
• Bird's Nest Stadium (Requires Mass Media and Modern Sports): Remove Mass Media (Mass Media - Modern Sports)
• Flavian Amphitheatre (Requires Construction and Slavery): Remove Slavery (Slavery - Megalith Construction - Sedentary Lifestyle - Agriculture - Pottery - Mining - Masonry - Monotheism - Monarchy - Construction)
• Great Mosque of Desert (Requires Divine Right and Paper): Remove Paper (Paper - Education - Political Philosophy - Divine Right)
• Hammam (Requires Canal Systems and Masonry): Remove Masonry (Masonry - Monotheism - Monarchy - Construction - Canal Systems)
• Hippocratic Oath (Requires Ancient Medicine and Naturopathy): Remove Naturopathy (Naturopathy - Mysticism - Megalith Construction - Sedentary Lifestyle - Caste System - Priesthood - Oratory - Code of Laws - Ancient Medicine)
• International Dog Show (Requires Biology and Canine Domestication): Remove Canine Domestication (Canine Domestication - Livestock Domestication - Sedentary Lifestyle - Archery - Copper Working - Metal Casting - Bronze Working - Military Training - Feudalism - Guilds - Paper - Printing Press - Scientific Method - Biology)
• J. S. Bach's Cathedral (Requires Acoustics and Architecture): Remove Architecture (Architecture - Stained Glass - Education - Acoustics)
• Lotus Temple (Requires Divine Right and Radio): Remove Divine Right (Divine Right - Mercantilism - Economics - Replaceable Parts - Steam Power - Electricity - Telegraph - Radio)
• Piazza San Marco (Requires Code of Laws and Guilds and Literature): Remove Code of Laws (Code of Laws - Feudalism - Guilds)
• Pyramids (Requires Ceremonial Burial and Masonry): Remove Ceremonial Burial (Ceremonial Burial - Mysticism - Megalith Construction - Sedentary Lifestyle - Agriculture - Pottery - Mining - Masonry)
• Solar Updraft Tower (Requires Ecology and Megastructure Engineering and Solar Power): Remove Solar Power (Solar Power - Satellites - Globalization - Gene Manipulation - Cloning - Advanced Computers - Superstrong Alloys - Megastructure Engineering)
• Terracotta Army (Requires Ceremonial Burial and Monarchy and Pottery): Remove Ceremonial Burial and Pottery (Ceremonial Burial - Mysticism - Megalith Construction - Sedentary Lifestyle - Agriculture - Pottery - Mining - Masonry - Monotheism - Monarchy, Pottery - Mining - Masonry - Monotheism - Monarchy)
• The Ishtar Gate (Requires Aesthetics and Glass Blowing and Masonry): Remove Masonry (Masonry - Glass Blowing)
• The Temple of Heaven (Requires Architecture and Divine Right): Remove Architecture (Architecture - Stained Glass - Education - Gunpowder - Divine Right)
• Topkapi Palace (Requires Feudalism and Masonry): Remove Masonry (Masonry - Monotheism - Monarchy - Aristocracy - Vassalage - Feudalism)
• Valley of the Kings (Requires Ceremonial Burial and Masonry): Remove Ceremonial Burial (Ceremonial Burial - Mysticism - Megalith Construction - Sedentary Lifestyle - Agriculture - Pottery - Mining - Masonry)

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Vokarya

I think some of these have the techs as a requirement so they are linked to a set of appropriate techs. Such as Pyramids having Ceremonial Burial and Masonry because those are the obvious related techs even if the techs on their own are redundant. Also since techs chnage and move around I do not think it would be wise to change their requirements in case at some point Ceremonial Burial doesn't lead to Masonry.

 

[Vokarya]

@Vokarya

I think some of these have the techs as a requirement so they are linked to a set of appropriate techs. Such as Pyramids having Ceremonial Burial and Masonry because those are the obvious related techs even if the techs on their own are redundant. Also since techs chnage and move around I do not think it would be wise to change their requirements in case at some point Ceremonial Burial doesn't lead to Masonry.

I suspected as such. I just thought I would post it and see if anyone agreed. I think it is only a serious issue when the technologies are several eras apart. For example, with Topkapi Palace requiring Masonry and Feudalism, I don't see anyone getting all the way to Feudalism without either Masonry being required somewhere along the line or researching it easily because it would be so cheap relative to other tech choices before then.