Expansion: When, Where, How Often? (also, war)

[Ledneh]

The main thrust of this topic is about expansion. Basically, I'm a total noob at Civ 4. I know all the mechanics, sure, and I've read Sulla's walkthrough (very, very nice), but the only reason I win on Chieftain is because the AI is hopelessly slow and inept at that level. And sometimes I STILL lose if an agressive Civ chooses to steamroll me.

One of my biggest failings is knowing about expansion. I do fine while I still have one city, but once I get more than one, the midden starts to slowly hit the windmill. Basically, how often do I want to expand? To how many cities? Where, generally, should I set up shop (clustered in small groups, or spread hither and yon)? When should I expand? All those questions I haven't answered for myself yet. I realize many of the answers will be circumstantial, but some general tips would be nice.

Also on a side note, war. Basically, so far I've only gone to war 'cause the AI said 'noob, let's fight!' and I was all 'okay' 'cause what other choice do you have, right? But what circumstances would prompt ME to declare war on an AI? What advantage would I seek to gain by winning a war, besides extra cities that I probably don't want anyway?

Thanks!

(edit) Also, if it helps any, I typically use Pangaea map types, with everything else default.

 

[Orca]

The expansion in CIV IV is a little bit more tricky than in previous version, this is because of the upkeep cost that you have to pay for new cities. The more cities the less valuable new cities get. For that reason a brute force approach to spam cities everywhere will no longer work.
Until the fourth or so city this is however not much of a problem. If you have good spots available nearby dont hesitate to build some cities there.
After improving your cities with workers a little bit you can think of expanding further, try to place all your cities at riversides because the benefit you gain is bigger than it was in previous civ versions. If the cities are connected to your capital with river or street there will be traderoutes in your cities try to build additional cities so they get traderoutes. Special resources is an other important aspect they are really powerful in civ IV try to build your cities in a way that they cover at least two special resources and you should be fine.
If you get beyond something like ten cities you want to start thinking of law courts and the forbidden place to fight upkeep.

 

[AWeeMoose]

Wow, big question...where do I start? Oh yeah: Welcome to CFC!

First, take a look at this strategy article:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=134902

I'll do the best I can to address your questions in brief.

And sometimes I STILL lose if an agressive Civ chooses to steamroll me.

Military is more important than ever in cIV. Check the power graph every few turns. If you're not in to top half of powerful civs, odds are, you're much more likely to get attacked.

Basically, how often do I want to expand? To how many cities? Where, generally, should I set up shop (clustered in small groups, or spread hither and yon)? When should I expand?

BTW, nice use of "hither and yon." That's a phrase that isn't used enough anymore

Well, after you build your first city, you're going to want to ensure you have a few military units for protection and a worker to connect any resources. My typical initial build orders are: Warrior, Scout/Warrior, Worker, Settler.

As far as how often...as you acknowledged, it really depends. The first number that comes to my head is every 20 turns or so, but that's pulled out of thin air

Depending on map size, you're going to want to expand to 5-8 initial cities. Any more and you'll have overstretched yourself, leaving yourself vulnerable to attack and/or crippling your economy.

For layout, the game's suggested spaces aren't bad at all. For the first few difficulty levels, you can follow them. You're basically looking for spots that allow for a decent amount of food and hammers, without having too much salt water, desert, tundra, or ice. You don't want to plop cities right on top of each other, because then they'll be competing for the same workable tiles. The general guide is the "fat cross" the 20 or so tiles around your city that you can work (if you don't know what this is, it's basically the borders you see when a city's culture expands for the first time, beyond the initial square you see.) Place a new city so that it's fat cross overlaps as little as possible with your capital's fat cross. You don't want to spread out too far, but if you place a city far away (say 20 tiles), make sure you can plop a city in-between to close your borders.

But what circumstances would prompt ME to declare war on an AI? What advantage would I seek to gain by winning a war, besides extra cities that I probably don't want anyway?

Well, you're going to want to wage war for several reasons:
1) Increase your score
2) Capture resources (the biggest reason by far)
3) Cripple the enemy
4) Increase cities (you actually do want more cities, but not until mid-game, when your economy can support the extra #)
5) Because you're a warmongering meanie


Hope this helps!

 

[Mathemagician13]

if you get crushed by an aggressive Civ, it sounds like you left yourself open to it. I don't mean that harshly, but that's how you have to look at every one of your cities. "Does this look like a target?" Are there lots of cottages and no units to protect them? Is it close to an enemy border (in particular, an aggressive enemy's border) and have old just some old troops? If the answer is yes to any of these, those darn aggressive Civs are going to stomp you flat and take your hat. It took me a while to learn this. No matter what the game, military is important or even pleased neighbors will take advantage of you (afterall, they want to win too).

As to your question about where to expand, it's a very important one Sometimes you might want to acquire resources for your own good, other times, you might want to take them so that your enemy can't have them (IE, taking iron so that they cannot produce swordsmen). Othertimes, you might have longterm goals for a city. I typically enjoy a city that just produces military units for the rest of my empire. That kind of city needs a lot of hammers, and doesn't have real use for coin. But here lies the delicate balance that is developing a city in Civ. You could have all the mines in the world, but they are worthless unless you have the food to put people in them!

That was a mistake I made often enough early on. I would plop down a city in the middle of all these minable areas, and expect it to be a production powerhouse. Soon enough, my cities geared toward commerce were outproducing it, because it couldn't get its population up to keep people on the mines! So remember, you need 2 food for every point of population, just to break even. That means, if you really want to make use of that +4 hammer mine, you probably need a tile (say, fish, or another animal food source) producing 4 food (2 to feed itself, 2 to feed the miner). This changes later on with the tech changing the game, like workshops producing some food (State Property civic), lumbermills become very good late game, etc. You want a production city to keep growing, so that it can use more mines, so you need the food to keep it going!

On the other hand, you don't want things to grow too fast. You might also want to found cities in such a way that they add some happiness to your empire. Afterall, if you let your cities grow too fast, you'll end up with unhappy citizens. Not only do you have to look at an angry little red icon, but that jerk still eats your food (he's not so angry that he's going to do a demonstration by fasting). So, a city with access to luxury resources can help all your other cities.

The question of When is answered by a lot of different things. Pangaea maps, I do all my expansion straightaway (I try to find a city where I can get a nice commerce going, the previously detailed military-production city, and then some other nice sites). Terra maps I expand so that I'm in good position to get over to the new world ASAP. Continents, I like to expand early and box my opponents in. It seems like a cop-out answer, but it really depends

The advantage of expanding is that you can get more work done. Having a military city frees up your other cities to focus on commerce (and thus, research), or whatever else they may be doing (say, generating missionaries). Of course, that might all fall apart if you expand too much. Expanding too much, and you'll collapse your economy. Sure that new city might look great for producing lots of commerce, but there's no point if you can't get 'modern' units to it, because you don't have modern units, because your tech % is at 10 because you have no money. So you've handed the AI a city

 

[Ledneh]

Five to eight cities?! Good lord! I only have three good cities, one mostly crap city that I needed to grab for iron, and one I won due to culture from another Civ by accident.

And frankly, I had considered that a lot of expanding! Yeesh.

(by the way, Civ IV is my first, so I have no baggage from the past Civ games, as seems to be often the case around here)

For the curious, I've attached my current save. Since it's Chieftain, I have no worries about WINNING, per se. I just really want to make sureI have the right ideas before I waste my time losing on, say, Noble. My only real regret so far that I can see is that I have no access to Copper--I'd probably have to war with Roosevelt to get his, since no one will trade it to me. But I suck at war, I have no idea if what I have would pass muster, even on Chieftain . Also, it seems like my population growth is a little slow--I thought for sure I'd be in the high teens by now in my capital, not the low teens. I guess I can blame that on my start location, though.

If anyone can point out any mistakes, I'd totally love it

(also, I love spreading religion like a madman--I hardly even had to try very hard to turn everyone Hindu. Woot for me!)

(edit) Also, thanks for the welcome, and uh, can I use a custom avatar here?

(edit 2) uh, nevermind on the avatar

 

[kb2tvl]

download and install the latest patch, start a new game and I will be happy to help. =P

Reading the power graph and the score graph is essential.

 

[nickleby]

Any thoughts about building cities next to the sea?

In Civ 2 and 3, it made sense to build large numbers of cities, and to gain space, it worked to build on the coast.

However, in Civ 4, coastal squares seem to, well, suck. No production, and at least for the first half of the game (unless I'm missing something), then only produce enough to support them and provide a little gold (when compared to cottages). I

f you build roads for trade, it seems like the only use of coastal cities is the strategic ability to build ships, but unless you're planning on building a ton (terra map, perhaps, or island maps where you have no choice but to build on the coast) of ships, a couple of coastal cities may do.

Do coastal cities work?
Is there a way to make them work?
Or should we just keep our citizens away from all of the beach bums?

 

[Ledneh]

download and install the latest patch, start a new game and I will be happy to help. =P

Reading the power graph and the score graph is essential.

Er, I AM patched up

 

[gimhalos]

Any thoughts about building cities next to the sea?

Ocean resources such as fish give alot of food, good for getting your city of fast, you also need a city or 2 by the ocean to create ships.


On the topic of expansion I've found it's best to expand as much as you can while still keeping your science rate around 70-80%. This way you won't get screwed out of land (hopefully) and you won't fall behind in tech. Money isn't really important early in the game, it takes forever to get enough to buy one tech or upgrade one unit, so as long as you break even it should be okay. Be sure you have plenty of workers to make your cities quality ones. Also, if you found a religion and make a shrine, and successfully spread it you can get an extra 10-15 gold per turn, which is enough to upkeep 2-4 extra cities. Basically don't bankrupt yourself of tech, but don't set yourself in a position where you have a small amount of unproductive cities.



I've only been playing for about 3 days.... So I'm probably wrong on at least one thing (or possibly all these things) so don't take my word on it.

:braces himself for being flamed:


edit: also, if you are a Civ4 newb I'd recommend wondering around these forums for awhile, they really gave me a concept of the game and got me started... Pwning people on warlord difficulty....atm anyway...

 

[AWeeMoose]

Five to eight cities?! Good lord! I only have three good cities, one mostly crap city that I needed to grab for iron, and one I won due to culture from another Civ by accident.

Don't worry about this. Three core cities and one crap city (+1 taken over by culture) is fine for standard. I'm not sure how this game progressed, but you could've fit in another productive city somewhere around Beijing, perhaps to the west. 5 is a good target for standard, and 8 is a high-end target for large or huge maps.

My only real regret so far that I can see is that I have no access to Copper--I'd probably have to war with Roosevelt to get his, since no one will trade it to me.

Don't sweat this. You don't appear to need it since you have iron. Plus, you're far beyond the need for copper-based units.

But I suck at war, I have no idea if what I have would pass muster, even on Chieftain .

Again, don't sweat this either. I didn't really get even slightly skilled at war until I got to Noble, at which point I learned how to fight. Just remember, most units have counter-units and stacks of mixed arms (some offensive, some defensive, and a some siege units) is ideal. Try conquest in your next Chieftan game and go ahead and mop up the AI.

Also, it seems like my population growth is a little slow--I thought for sure I'd be in the high teens by now in my capital, not the low teens. I guess I can blame that on my start location, though.

You may want to build more farms. It appears that you're controlling the workers, not automating them, right?

If anyone can point out any mistakes, I'd totally love it

Gladly! These aren't mistakes, per se, but things that I thought of while looking at your savegame.

1) At first, I thought 3 workers is far too few. Then I thought again and figured it was passable for 5 cities. Then I thought AGAIN and realized that you'd really see the benefit of having twice as many workers. You'd be able to improve a city's tiles far more rapidly, repair damage from marauding AI pillagers, and quickly build new improvements over old ones when you need to.

2) You've got great culture in your cities, thanks to the wonders, and it looks like you might even assimilate Vladivostok and Chicago soon.

3) ***IMPORTANT*** Your military units look badly outdated. I know the AI doesn't have a lot of units, and you do have some modern ones, and you're not likely to get overrun on Chieftan, but still... I'd suggest using that gold you have to update your units (especially the lone warrior defenders) to modern units. I know some people say it's inefficient to update since it's so costly, but at this level, you can afford to do it.

4) Shanghai isn't growing. You might want to change a town to its southwest to a farm.

5) Your score, relations, civics, and techs look fine.

6) You're awfully close to the health limit in most of your cities. See also my final point.

7) You can get sugar from Caesar for either corn or dye. Check the diplo screen as often as possible to look for any possible tech or resource trades. This will come in hand at later difficulty levels.

8) I'd also move some of the units you have in Shanghai to some of the outlying cities for additional defense. Well, unless you're using them as some sort of centralized strike force.

9) Looking at the charts: Your food production seems to be leveling off. You might want to sacrifice some commerce/gold for food from farms. Power is ok, since you're 3rd, but since you're so far ahead in tech, you could easily be #1 through upgrading your units. If you upgrade all the units you can, take a look at your power score a turn or 2 later and watch it jump

10) ***MOST IMPORTANT*** I know it's Chieftan and it's way fun to build as many wonders as possible, but you'll need to learn to get over this. It's a good thing you're new to the Civ franchise so you don't have to unlearn bad habits like I had to. The AI will beat you to nearly all wonders at later levels until you learn to prioritize which wonders you want. You'll have to determine the victory condition you want, then chose techs, build orders, and wonders according to that. Your wonder obsession may have given you a ton o' culture, but it's at the expense of markets, grocers, granaries, banks, barracks, and acqueducts, all of which I find essential for core cities. You'd be getting a lot more commerce, health, and happiness if you build these buildings in cities other than Beijing. Do this, and watch your empire thrive!

(also, I love spreading religion like a madman--I hardly even had to try very hard to turn everyone Hindu. Woot for me!)

Heh, good for you. I found building missionaries to be a less than ideal use of my civ's time, though. I find it better to simply have a religion or two for my own culture/happiness and the occasional relations boost with a neighbor. You'll find at higher difficulty levels (around Noble) that the AI will start beating you to most early religions, unless you beeline.


Hope all the advice helps. Remember the military-upgrade and anti-wonder-obsession tips. They'll serve you well in your coming year of civving.

 

[AWeeMoose]

Any thoughts about building cities next to the sea?

However, in Civ 4, coastal squares seem to, well, suck. No production, and at least for the first half of the game (unless I'm missing something), then only produce enough to support them and provide a little gold (when compared to cottages). I

f you build roads for trade, it seems like the only use of coastal cities is the strategic ability to build ships, but unless you're planning on building a ton (terra map, perhaps, or island maps where you have no choice but to build on the coast) of ships, a couple of coastal cities may do.

Do coastal cities work?
Is there a way to make them work?
Or should we just keep our citizens away from all of the beach bums?

gimhalos makes good points. Here are my thoughts, some of which double up on what was already said:

You're right, nickleby, coast cities aren't as good as they were in the past and only a few are needed. They really do serve as commerce-specialized cities and as seaports for trade and/or war. I'd just suggest trying to build coast cities where there's good land behind it, otherwise you risk choking the city of production, until they add in a production-generating platform in an expansion. Until then, I'll just sit here and drink my coffee.

 

[gimhalos]

A production-producing platform, or PPP just because it sounds cool, would be a great idea. I could see it now... in the patch notes:

--added PPP

Yep, that would be like a Utopia for my sad pathetic life. Sorry for my ranting, I'm bored.

 

[BlackMage]

The key, as I see it, is specialization. While I am still learning this art - I have the chop rush and CS Slingshot down, when it works, it is very powerful.

 

[Rad Chris]

I like coastal cities, especially when playing as a Financial civ. The way I see it is that sea tiles are like free commerce as they produce two food and so support themselves. Add a fish or two into the mix and you have the beginnings of a science powerhouse.

As for the OPs question. I just look at my science slider. If im making money and im at 80%+ science then its time for another city.

Deciding where to plonk it is a bit more difficult. Are there resources you want to grab or deny the enemy? Would placing a city close to your capital save you a bunch of cash? Do you want to box in the AI so you can expand backwards at your leisure?

Also, if your losing money so early then you need more cottages. And never underestimate the power of an early Gold/Silver/Gems mine. They produce so much money early its worth another cities upkeep.

 

[temmage]

That's solid advice you're getting but I would like to offer a few more crucial tips.

First, as the difficulty increases, you'll generally need to optimize your city's output whether it be commerce (science) or production. That's why many players would suggest that you aim to specialize your cities and have a specific goal for each city. For that reason (as mentioned above), coastal cities are best for commerce because of the commerce points costal tiles produced. Another good location when you're looking to build a commerce city is grassland. The two food produced by grassland would be enough to sustain a point of population thus allowing you to build cottages (which increase in commerce points over time). In fact, a city on the grassland will generally outproduce costal cities in the long run. As for production, I won't repeat what has already been mentioned.

As for the size and rate of expansion for cities, I would agree that somewhere between five to eight cities (depending on your needs) is a good amount to aim for. In the early game, you want to quickly expand to at least three cities that will form the core of your empire; these three cities will more than likely produce the bulk of your research and production for much of the early and middle game. Afterward the initial three or four cities, however, the benefits from expanding quickly level with the cost of expanding. There are three exceptions though. First, you might want to expand to strategically cut your neighbor off from a key resource such as horses, copper, or iron. This denial is important because it gives you a tech lead (in terms of the units you can produce) and is an excellent pre-emptive move to attacking your neighbor in the near future. Second, you might want to expand to grab key happiness/health resources and/or deny your neighbors that resource. Third, you might want to expand to control key strategic points such as choke points, mountain passes, etc. This is useful when you want to control "entryways" into your territory.

Hope this helps!

 

[LordTerror]

Five to eight cities?!

I get 30+ cities before the end of some games. (For example: Huge, Marathon, Pangaea maps)

Generally, you want 5-8 cities before you get to 1AD and you don't really want to expand more after that. If you play a financial leader and spam cottages, you can keep expanding almost the whole game, though.