Explain this, you empiricists

[Bozo Erectus]

Anyway, what I might recommend you Bozo is read about psychological concept called Synchronicity, you should find it under Jung.

Synchronicity suggests that mind and matter, as well as past, present and future exist in a meaningfully connected continuum. It also implies that everyday distinctions concerning self and environment, causality and the belief in linear time are historically specific assumptions rather than absolute truths.

Yeah! Thats it exactly! (note to self: buy a Jung book)

So just because once you dreamed of something that actually happened, this is weird? And what do you mean by repeatedly? Was it like every week, until it finally happened (in which case you'll realize that there's not much to discuss), or was it several times in the same night (which happens a lot)?

Several times in the same night. Im sure having the same dream more than once in a night isnt that uncommon, but Id wager the thing dreamt about happening shortly after awakening is pretty darned rare.

Given that 6 billions people dream every night, I would say I would be more suprised if not a single one of them dreamt about something that's going to happen.

IMO, the so called 'laws' of probability are a lame human attempt to impose some sort of order on chaos.

I had an even crazier dream a couple years ago.

I had a VERY vivid dream, bordering on the lucid, that the space shuttle blew up. I was standing on top of one of the skyscrapers on the edge of Central Park in New York, and for some reason there was a Space Shuttle launch going on in the middle of the park. The Space Shuttle took off, but something went wrong. There was an explosion, and it started flying sideways. It hit one of the skyscrapers. There were more explosions. There's fire everywhere, things exploding, people screaming & running, skyscrapers collapsing. I was freaking out.

Next thing I know the picture slowly starts panning out, like in a movie. It continues to pan out and at this point I'm no longer standing on the skyscraper.. I am in the sky.. or something.. looking at the whole disaster from up top. But THEN, my point of view goes out and out and out.. and onto a couch! And I'm watching the disaster on TV, with my family. "Space Shuttle disaster", the headline reads. It was all so incredibly vivid & emotional, I can't even describe it.

This was by far the most vivid dream I've ever had, even more vivid than all the lucid dreams I've had in the past. As soon as I woke up I ran to my computer and typed the whole thing out, and sent it out to my friends. I had to tell everyone about it.. it was just so incredibly vivid & emotional. It touched me.

I had this dream on the night of January 29, 2003. (or it could perhaps have been the 30th)

1 or 2 days later, February 1st, 2003.. The phone wakes me up.. I don't get it in time.. I get up, go to the bathroom.. get on my computer.. and have like 20+ messages.. WTH.. Phone rings again.. Friend tells me to turn on CNN.. I do.. and what do I see?? Space Shuttle Columbia just blew up.

All my friends on msn/icq/irc are calling me a prophet. .. I'm just freaked out.

Damn, thats awesome. Do you believe it was just a 'coincidence'?

Maybe you subconsciously heard about possible brownouts in your area before going to sleep, and so you dreamt of them, and then the power outage that you heard about came to pass, as expected? That would seem to me to be the most likely explanation.

I concur, much of the human mind is dedicated to limiting the amount of data we become aware of to a managable quantity. Sometimes a dream or hunch is just your unconscious flagging to the consious discarded info or conclusions drawn from such info.

That or apophenia anyway.

I dont discount that possibility, Im sure it plays a part in some of these occurences, but certainly not all.

As far as apophenia, I think that whether or not someone is exhibiting apophenia is strictly in the eye of the beholder


Oh yeah, and brownouts arent that uncommon here, but during heatwaves in the summer. Even so this summer there werent all that many, around here anyway.

 

[Phlegmak]

Ive been debating whether to bring this up, because its the sort of thing that automatically gets people labelled a nutcase. But what the hell, I AM a nutcase Ok here it is:

I dreamt repeatedly about their being a blackout. I wake up. A short time later, Im discussing it with someone, and specifically say, "Well, lets see if the lights go out." A few minutes later, theres a major brownout, and parts of the area locally are left without power for a number of minutes. Me and this person looked at each other, and he said that Im a 'Brujo' (warlock)

So whats the 'logical' explanation?

The logical explanation is that this is nothing special at all. How many other times have you dreamt about something happening and it doesn't happen when you wake up? So we can just call this a coincidence and move along with our lives.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

I dunno, to me coincidence is a meaningless word, like 'kerfliffel'. Something happens which cant be immediately explained, so 'kerfliffel' is invoked, everybody breathes a sigh of relief, calms down and goes on with their lives. Thats fine, its just that nothings been learned.

 

[skadistic]

I dunno, to me coincidence is a meaningless word, like 'kerfliffel'. Something happens which cant be immediately explained, so 'kerfliffel' is invoked, everybody breathes a sigh of relief, calms down and goes on with their lives. Thats fine, its just that nothings been learned.

What if we invoke "probability" instead

 

[Masquerouge]

IMO, the so called 'laws' of probability are a lame human attempt to impose some sort of order on chaos.

That's your opinion indeed. They seem to work pretty well, however.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

All humans are psychic amnesiaces, and time flows backwards. You just don't have complete amnesia.

 

[Phlegmak]

I dunno, to me coincidence is a meaningless word, like 'kerfliffel'. Something happens which cant be immediately explained, so 'kerfliffel' is invoked, everybody breathes a sigh of relief, calms down and goes on with their lives. Thats fine, its just that nothings been learned.

In this case, there is nothing to learn. Let me give examples about my own life. I have had countless dreams throughout my life. Very rarely, something in my dream happens in real life shortly afterwards. Let's pretend it happened twice. I'm in my thirties now, so if I have two dreams every night, then I've had ~21900 other dreams, in which nothing in the dream happened immediately afterward in real life. So, it is extremely safe to say, there is no connection between what I have dreamt and what has happened in real life after the dream.

IMO, the so called 'laws' of probability are a lame human attempt to impose some sort of order on chaos.

I can't believe you said that. Man, you aren't anywhere near science-minded like I thought you were. Oh well.

Here's a fun video about probability and coincidence.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7461912885649996034&q=james+randi

 

[warpus]

IMO, the so called 'laws' of probability are a lame human attempt to impose some sort of order on chaos.

Nah, they're just there to help us explain the chaos.. and they work fairly well too.

For example, you know what odds you have of winning the lottery, if you play. That can be quite useful.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

What if we invoke "probability" instead

'Probability' is just a more highbrow version of 'coincidence'.

That's your opinion indeed. They seem to work pretty well, however.

Of course they do, we invented them. A thousand years ago, we had other 'laws' that seemed to work pretty well too. In a thousand years from now, we'll have new 'laws' that will work very well too.

All humans are psychic amnesiaces, and time flows backwards. You just don't have complete amnesia.

No, its that as time flows backwards, we have less and less to remember

I can't believe you said that. Man, you aren't anywhere near science-minded like I thought you were. Oh well.

By 'science minded' do you mean limiting my musings to whatever happens to be considered science at any given moment? Then no Im not, not even a little.

Nah, they're just there to help us explain the chaos.. and they work fairly well too.

For example, you know what odds you have of winning the lottery, if you play. That can be quite useful.

Im equally as likely to win tommorow, as I am to never win, even if I play for a million years. The idea of imposing laws on randomness is almost laughable.

 

[Masquerouge]

Im equally as likely to win tommorow, as I am to never win, even if I play for a million years. The idea of imposing laws on randomness is almost laughable.

You seem to be quite wind-up against probabilities... childhood trauma? Your dad played your allowance at roulette?

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Actually, he was a chronic gambler, who managed for years to spend a large portion of a six figure salary on horse and dog racing. Boohooo! Ive had such a revelation! Thanks Doc, its all clear now

 

[Masquerouge]

Actually, he was a chronic gambler, who managed for years to spend a large portion of a six figure salary on horse and dog racing. Boohooo! Ive had such a revelation! Thanks Doc, its all clear now

Well, then it's obvious that your dream about the blackout referred to him, since all dreams are about dads. And penises.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Well for once, this time there wasnt a penis in sight. Unless it was a black penis, after all, there was a blackout [/spamming own thread]

 

[soul_warrior]

well, youre not alone out there, bozo!

i have an ingrained fear of dreams.
why? because each and every one i DO REMEMBER, HAPPENS.
it might take 10 years, and maybe more (once had a dream i had when i was 10 happen when i was 28.
it was a VERY bad week.

why does it happen?
i dont know.

but i trust it, as it seems to happen.

i try and consider this as some sort of a heads up grandpa is sending me from the pits of hell.
i think he's trying to make me hurry up with my career plan...

those sort of dreams are segemeted and only partial, but i remember them VERY clearly.

You seem to be quite wind-up against probabilities... childhood trauma? Your dad played your allowance at roulette?

mine did

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Soul, do you write them all down?

 

[Dionysius]

<purged.>

 

[Yoda Power]

This one is easy! Bozo is a nutcase! Problem solved.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

No I was in complete darkness. I know what you mean though, similar things like what you describe have happened to me before.

This one is easy! Bozo is a nutcase! Problem solved.

Kerfliffel.

 

[Phlegmak]

denial

Obviously, no amount of reasoning will satisfy you. You are determined to believe that it was more than a coincidence. That is something that goes against all reason, in my opinion. It's like New Agers saying that "everything happens for a reason." They're incorrect of course, since not everything has some mystical magical reason behind it.

So, since you refuse to believe your dream was meaningless, then please tell us what it means, and what kind of superpowers you possess? If you can dream about something and then it happens when you wake up, what else can you do?

EDIT: By the way, aren't you the one here who's trying to put some order to chaos? Your dream is meaningless (chaos) yet you want to find a reason for it (order). Isn't that contradictory to your hypothesis that giving some reason for chaos is dumb?

The idea of imposing laws on randomness is almost laughable.

Incorrect.

 

[skadistic]

It was a sign from god Bozo.