Sure but in the meantime can you take out the option and have it as a modmod like SO is suggesting please.
Extra Traits for C2C
- Thread starter strategyonly
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Sure but in the meantime can you take out the option and have it as a modmod like SO is suggesting please.
No. Thunderbrd and AIAndy spent a lot of time designing a system that would allow for Optional changes like this without using modmods. So this is going to stay an option, but the Option selection may be simplified this version or next.
I'm just asking for you to add shell XML for the 2nd and 3rd level traits so the replacements will work and I don't need to do what I explained in my previous post.
@thunderbrd
Seems to be just a problem with the txt or whatever. If it was 21 great person points per turn it would reach 750 in 8.8turns not 16. Idealistic gives +25%, philosophical +75% and spiritual doesn't give that city anything because it doesn't have a religion. So it should be +100%. 6+[bonus 6]=12 which works out to be 15.5 turns rounded up is 16 turns - perfect!
Seems to be just a problem with the txt or whatever. If it was 21 great person points per turn it would reach 750 in 8.8turns not 16. Idealistic gives +25%, philosophical +75% and spiritual doesn't give that city anything because it doesn't have a religion. So it should be +100%. 6+[bonus 6]=12 which works out to be 15.5 turns rounded up is 16 turns - perfect!
Spoiler :
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Yeah... I sorted that out on my end already and a fix to that will exist in my next update. Remind me though... there were other bugs in the traits tags that haven't been addressed yet. What were they again?
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Is this just a compilation of them or are you trying to point anything out of a bugish nature here?
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
New Traits tags as of most recent update:
As Mentioned in the other thread:
Here's the rest of them:
I'd like to pause to thank playtyping for the inspiration for the vast majority of these tags. Most of them come from evaluating his python driven Trendy Traits. Thanks playtyping!
As Mentioned in the other thread:
- iNationalCaptureProbabilityModifier
- iNationalCaptureResistanceModifier
Here's the rest of them:
- EraAdvanceFreeSpecialistType: Specify a specialist type. Every time the owner of the denoted trait advances an era, he gains a free specialist of that type in every city.
- GoldenAgeonBirthofGreatPeopleType: Specify a type of GP. Every time the owner of the denoted trait has a Great Person birthed of that type, they go into a golden age.
- iGlobalPopulationgrowthratepercentage: A percentage adjustment (poorly named but done to make it like its clone from Civics) to the growth rate of the population in all the trait owner's cities.
- iCityStartCulture: A fixed amount of culture given to all founded cities when founded by the owner of the trait.
- iGlobalAirUnitCapacity: A flat adjustment to the number of air units that can be held in all the cities of the trait owner.
- iCapitalXPModifier: A % adjustment to the amount of XP given to all units trained in the capital of the owner.
- iHolyCityofStateReligionXPModifier: A % adjustment to the amount of XP given to all units trained in the Holy City (if possessed) of the trait owner's state religion.
- iHolyCityofNonStateReligionXPModifier: A % adjustment to the amount of XP given to all units trained in the holy cities of non-state religions that are owned by the trait owner.
- iBonusPopulationinNewCities: Additional population that starts in cities founded by the trait owner.
- iMissileRange: Missile units of the Trait owner have an adjustment to their operation ranges as denoted from this tag.
- iFlightOperationRange: Non-Missile Air units owned by the Trait Owner have an adjustment to their operation ranges as denoted from this tag.
- iNavalCargoSpace: Naval ships with carrying capacities owned by the Trait owner have an adjustment to their allowed Cargo Space as denoted from this tag.
- iMissileCargoSpace: Units that carry missiles that are owned by the owner of this Trait have more or less cargo space for those missiles as denoted from this tag.
- iStateReligionSpreadProbabilityModifier: Units owned by the Trait owner that are attempting to spread their state religion have this much a penalty or bonus to the % chance to successfully enact this mission in a city.
- iNonStateReligionSpreadProbabilityModifier: Units owned by the Trait owner that are attempting to spread a Non-State religion have this much a penalty or bonus to the % chance to successfully enact this mission in a city.
- bCitiesStartwithStateReligion: This tag enables the Trait owner to automatically gain the state religion wherever he/she founds a new city.
- bDraftsonCityCapture: When the armies of the Trait owner conquer a city, the city immediately and freely drafts as many units as it can from its population to support the conquerer as its citizens are immediately put to military service.
- bFreeSpecialistperWorldWonder: The cities of the Trait owner gain a free specialist for every world wonder that city has built.
- bFreeSpecialistperNationalWonder: The cities of the Trait owner gain a free specialist for every national wonder that city has built.
- bFreeSpecialistperTeamProject: The cities of the Trait owner gain a free specialist for every Team Project that city has built.
- bExtraGoody: Goody Huts and Islands revealed by the Trait Owner will grant an additional goody result (thus two results rather than one.)
- GoldenAgeYieldChanges: Lists the changes to the base rates on yields in all cities of the trait owner when a Golden Age is underway.
- GoldenAgeCommerceChanges: Lists the changes to the base commerce outputs in all cities of the trait owner when a Golden Age is underway.
- UnitCombatFreeExperiences: Additional (or less) experience given to units of the specified Combat Class by the owner of the Trait.
- UnitCombatProductionModifier: % modifier to the amount of production being produced by the trait owner's cities when training units of the designated combat class.
I'd like to pause to thank playtyping for the inspiration for the vast majority of these tags. Most of them come from evaluating his python driven Trendy Traits. Thanks playtyping!
My primary issue with many of these tags is that they have effects that are completely based on what era you are in, either as a result of the technology they modify (planes, missiles, cargo ships) or by giving new stuff each time you advance an era. I dislike this for two reasons.
- The idea that your traits can only be used well in certain eras is trying to force people to use Developing Leaderheads, something you said would not happen. A trait with the missile modifier is not at all useful in most every single game of C2C, and a person who starts with that is at a disadvantage for the whole game. This imbalances non-Developing leaders games and leads to non-fun gameplay without that option, which I would say probably was your goal. So I will not be implementing those on my traits at least.
- The ones that trigger by advancing eras only accelerate the steamroll effect that prevents games from maturing nicely. This is something we want to reduce, not exaserbate.
There is a set of traits that are used without developing leaders, and then there is the developing leader level traits. So you can avoid your first point can't you.
As far as I know the Developing Leaderhead traits are exactly the same as their non-Developing counterparts right now. The only difference is that you choose which traits to get over the course of the game with Developing Leaderheads, while it is chosen by your leader without that option.
Isn't iLinePriorities>0 the non-developing leader trait version. iLinePriorities>1 is the first level trait when using developing leaders, iLinePriorities>2 the second level trait etc?
iLinePriorities>0 isn't used when using developing leaders is it thunderbrd? Like at all..
iLinePriorities>0 isn't used when using developing leaders is it thunderbrd? Like at all..
Flinx
Prince
- Joined
- Dec 8, 2005
- Messages
- 455
Currently developing leaderheads is misleading.
It shoud be named collecting traits as this is what the current implementation does.
Is there a way to remove stuff that previous levels of a trait give. So like if a trait gives like +2
and then on the next level of that trait I want it removed, or is the only way to do this to give it +2
. Or like -10% 
in capital, would need to be +10% in capital in the next trait?I really wish they didn't stack.
Yes, but the traits with linePriority 1 are currently identical to the ones with linePriority 0. So for all gameplay purposes they are the same.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
I agree to an extent with most of what you stated. I'm not trying to make things non-fun for those playing without developing leaderheads but there should be no crime in making things more interesting when you do.
IRT the ones that trigger by advancing eras... I agree and would not think they would be well implemented on the core non-DL traits for that reason (unless all traits were still kept equally powerful.)
If you look through Playtyping's Trendy Trait pack you'll see where most of the inspiration on these tags comes from and I actually do feel many of them have little to no value for use on lower tier or non-DL traits.
Only currently. The design was setup so that they can differ and in all reality they SHOULD differ. So far, that side of things I've left in your courts. I do not mean to dictate anything about your trait structures here. By all means allow them to differ from the non-dl base 0s and the first levels.
The biggest reason that stands out to me that traits should differ between the linepriority 0 and 1 forms is that 0 must be balanced for the whole game approach while 1 should be balanced as the first step of the trait tree. Almost all tags have some variable impact depending on the era in which they are experienced as it is. This is WHY the 0 has been setup as different from 1 and the ability to make these vary was established. The definitions from 0 to 1 were only copied over as a base to start further development from and was never intended to go unchanged.
@SGTSlick: That's pretty much it... you just have to counteract the values if you want them to diminish. I believe this will be understood in effect by the players as they progress though I do understand your point. You'd like to be able to have a -4 :Mad: reduce to a -3 :Mad: rather than saying +1 Happy as that somewhat insinuates the wrong message. But I'd trust the players to 'get it' despite what it may insinuate.
Replacing would be a far more difficult affair for code implementation and ai and would be tough to 'get right' so that it doesn't have a lot of potential for bugs. It would not play as well with the recalculation methods although that's not insurmountable.
It not only makes things non-fun without Developing Leaders, it flat out breaks them. And you admitted that you agree with that, and are trying to push people into Developing Leaderheads, something you said earlier you wouldn't do.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Don't misread what I'm saying please nor try to put words in my mouth.
There's nothing wrong with giving some added effects to Developing Leaderhead trait lines that can be achieved at upper levels of development on a trait line. This doesn't make things unfun for those who aren't playing Developing Leaderheads. Nor does it break anything about either system. It's ok to NOT use any tags here for the core 0 lvl traits and in fact not all should be used for those and very well could be gamebalance breaking if they were since the 0 lvl traits MUST be balanced for a whole game approach.
I'm not PUSHING people into Developing Leaderheads but if I tempt them with an added potential effect or two that fits into the gamebalance under that structure while it would not without it, that's a different thing entirely. That's not coercion or twisting a leg, that's simply offering something that if you want it you take it and if you don't you don't. If you prefer to play without them, I'm just as fine with that as if you preferred to play with them.
I apoligize for putting words into your mouth. The thing is, even if you are 'tempting' them into that it still doesn't make sense to me. Unless you (or slick) change things to decouple the core traits from the leveling ones (probably a good idea) then the use of these tags can't work under the criteria you set out in the first paragraph for whole-game traits. For my traits the two will be the same for now because they don't use those tags, but in the future this will become an issue with the Core traits (which is what most existing games use).
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Thanks for the apology. Sorry if I've been reacting a bit hot under the collar myself.
The starting trait on a developing trait line should definitely not be the same as the non-developing leader trait. These tags aren't the only ones subject to this kind of era coloring on how valuable they are. They only highlight the issue because they are so very obviously era coloring. But when you take a close appraisal, there's numerous tags like this alread... just not to the same extreme.
For example, what good are trade routes when you have only one city? Would you say that in the beginning, when the game opens and you start your first city, that the value of +3
would be drastically different to the value of +3 when the game is more progressed and you have buildings giving +10 at once?
Truth is, anything that is non-scaling, such as % modifiers for example, are going to have variable impact depending on the needs of the era.
Therefore, development of the base 0 traits are very tough because you have to be able to somehow try to get a game balance established between them that encompasses the whole game front to back.
Surely, too, those traits, being as they are the only ones the player will get in a non-developing leaderheads game, should be quite a bit stronger in effect than the ones that you first achieve in the Prehistoric era on a Developing Leaderheads game shouldn't they? In that game, you're going to have a lot more coming so they shouldn't be as strong and the impact should be poignant to the beginning of the game rather than be setting up a balance with the whole game in mind.
DL gives us a development platform on which we can introduce effects that wouldn't otherwise be appropriate but lets also consider that not all effects on the 0 level traits are equally appropriate for the 1st lvl traits on DL.
Besides, there's nothing wrong with aiming to please a crowd with a new system. If we all wanted vanilla play we wouldn't be downloading a mod in the first place.
The starting trait on a developing trait line should definitely not be the same as the non-developing leader trait. These tags aren't the only ones subject to this kind of era coloring on how valuable they are. They only highlight the issue because they are so very obviously era coloring. But when you take a close appraisal, there's numerous tags like this alread... just not to the same extreme.
For example, what good are trade routes when you have only one city? Would you say that in the beginning, when the game opens and you start your first city, that the value of +3
would be drastically different to the value of +3 when the game is more progressed and you have buildings giving +10 at once?Truth is, anything that is non-scaling, such as % modifiers for example, are going to have variable impact depending on the needs of the era.
Therefore, development of the base 0 traits are very tough because you have to be able to somehow try to get a game balance established between them that encompasses the whole game front to back.
Surely, too, those traits, being as they are the only ones the player will get in a non-developing leaderheads game, should be quite a bit stronger in effect than the ones that you first achieve in the Prehistoric era on a Developing Leaderheads game shouldn't they? In that game, you're going to have a lot more coming so they shouldn't be as strong and the impact should be poignant to the beginning of the game rather than be setting up a balance with the whole game in mind.
DL gives us a development platform on which we can introduce effects that wouldn't otherwise be appropriate but lets also consider that not all effects on the 0 level traits are equally appropriate for the 1st lvl traits on DL.
Besides, there's nothing wrong with aiming to please a crowd with a new system. If we all wanted vanilla play we wouldn't be downloading a mod in the first place.
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