Extra Traits for C2C

[Sgtslick]

Its also very strange to hear that the xml isn't reading the same as the game display on the trait.

What do you mean? I mentioned this at least 5 times already to you

@bluegenie Thunderbrd is currently implementing some changes to the traitinfos.xml over the next week (he said). I am aware of these problems and its somewhat beyond my control for now (since its nothing that can be done in the xml).
Hopefully thunderbrd will be able to fix the civilopedia problems regarding inconsistencies and double negatives and stuff.

Once he's done i'll be able to continue my work on the traits, kinda can't do anything at the moment though im a afraid till thunderbrd's work is done first.

 

[Thunderbrd]

No, not playing with either Pure or No-Negative traits.

Ok, I'll try to disseminate the various bugs and display bugs I get.

Scientific Trait:

Spoiler :

Display of Great People on mouse-over shows -20% growth rate from Scientific. This is a display bug as the effect is not actual but it does mean the Final Great Person growth display per turn is off.

Specialist Scientist should give 5 but only shows as giving 3. If this is an actual bug or just display I am not sure about yet.

The +10% in Capitol does not work. I get the same bonuses in Capitol as in every other city.

The +1 per City is not shown in any Breakdown of Science in any City. I don't know if this is Display or Bug.

Organized:

Spoiler :

Display of Great People on mouse-over shows -20% growth rate from Organized. This is a bug as the effect is not actual but should be there. I do not get the -20% Great People rate from Organized.

Specialists Artist and Noble do not give -1 as per the Trait. I have not checked if this is another Display bug and the actual total value is lower than the shown total value.

+10% and -10% in Capitol are not shown or given.

-1 in all cities I can not see in any City, that is I see no "-1 from Traits" in the breakdowns.

Cruel:

Spoiler :

Display of Great People on mouse-over shows -20% growth rate from Cruel. This is a display bug as the effect is not actual but it does mean the Final Great Person growth display per turn is off.

I don't notice or see the -1 per City in the Happy Breakdown. It could be there hidden with some other entry though.

Specialists Settled Slave and Settled Citizen do not give the changes to yields listed, aka the +1, +2, and -1.

Various:

Spoiler :

In every City I get a readout of +10% from Scientific Leader AND +15%:science from Traits on mouse-over on science breakdown. Where these last 15% come from I don't know as neither Cruel nor Organized should give any bonus and the Scientific should already be incorporated in the Scientific part. I think it might state Traits where it should state Civics. No where in the breakdown does it tell me any information on bonus from Civics otherwise.

I have noticed that my Science per turn changes depending on what I am researching. I can only guess this is due to the various things that give bonus to Science like TechDiffusion, TechWelfare, TechPrereqisites known, and so on. What I don't know is if the +1 per City from Scientific is also added after and only show in Total Science Output and that that would be the reason it is not shown in any City Breakdown of Science.

As for the Great Person that you wanted extra breakdown for the numbers:
Total Great Person Rate: 20
Displayed % Changes: -30% from Traits, -20% from Scientific Leader, -20% from Organized Leader, -20% from Cruel Leader. Total -90%.
Final Great Person Rate Display: +2 (-90%)
Actual Total Great Person change per turn: +14 (-30%)
What it should be with my Traits: +10 (-50%)

I hope this helps a bit to narrow down the discrepancies.

Cheers

Ok... Good breakdown. In many cases I didn't go out of my way to make sure it specified the benefit was coming from traits as opposed to civics or whatever else may have affected these values for the player base. I guess I can take some extra time to look into breaking these down further for you and some of them are just... strange to say the least. Will take a few weekends most likely to disseminate all the issues listed here so in the meantime, please list off any more you find. My testing was enough to show that the bonuses were working on an initial check (some negatives might not work correctly and those need to be addressed...) and to make sure the update would not crash any games or saves. So some of this is expected wrapup polish work. Others... just odd bugs to sort out.

What do you mean? I mentioned this at least 5 times already to you

@bluegenie Thunderbrd is currently implementing some changes to the traitinfos.xml over the next week (he said). I am aware of these problems and its somewhat beyond my control for now (since its nothing that can be done in the xml).
Hopefully thunderbrd will be able to fix the civilopedia problems regarding inconsistencies and double negatives and stuff.

Once he's done i'll be able to continue my work on the traits, kinda can't do anything at the moment though im a afraid till thunderbrd's work is done first.

Well... you weren't too specific about where problems were but yes I did know there were some. I still find it strange that some of the tags would read differently in the xml than they do in the trait display considering all were checked according to that aspect. Anyhow, not a problem... will just take some time to sort out is all. Note: I've just spent nearly a 5 day weekend working up a full traits proposal for you so its not like I'm sitting still here I just have a few wrapups and a bit of smoothing to do there and then I can share it with you and the rest here. Be looking for it tomorrow.

 

[Sgtslick]

I don't think your just sitting there thunderbrd, not at all! Your an industrious bugger ill give you that
I thought it would have been better if you looked in the civilopedia yourself like I said in the pm, rather than me list them out and miss some of the not so obvious ones etc.

 

[ls612]

@Thunderbrd:

The Crime effects from traits are NOT being affected by the Pure Traits option. There are a couple of other things missing, but that one was the first one I saw. I'll post a list later of the other ones that aren't being correctly handled by Pure Traits.

 

[strategyonly]

The Crime effects from traits are NOT being affected by the Pure Traits option. There are a couple of other things missing, but that one was the first one I saw. I'll post a list later of the other ones that aren't being correctly handled by Pure Traits.

So these "options" then ARE ok to use? Didnt know for sure, or if they were just put in to get things started for the "later" change on traits??

 

[ls612]

So these "options" then ARE ok to use? Didnt know for sure, or if they were just put in to get things started for the "later" change on traits??

Not completely, there are bugs with it.

 

[strategyonly]

Not completely, there are bugs with it.

thats what i thought, OK thx.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Well, apparently there's a few bugs with or without the options that need to be sorted out.

@ls612: if the property manipulators like crime are not being correctly held to the rules regarding Pure Traits under the Pure Traits option, then the first thing to check would be the bImpurePropertyManipulators tag on the offending trait and make sure its properly set to 1. I imagine failure to do so is the reason this is taking place. So it depends on how the trait entry itself is setup. I haven't had a chance to audit for that on Slick's most recent traitinfo file.

I'll be looking forward to getting that list from you too!

 

[Thunderbrd]

Ok, finally, my Traits Proposal is complete. Check it out guys... see what you think.

I've attempted to create symmetry on many levels between various traits, and at the same time introduce some asymmetry to keep things spiced up a bit and to stick closer to the spirit of the trait concepts. The main page of this excel spreadsheet displays all the trait breakdowns but each has been balanced according to a valuation on each tag and that breakdown is located on the individual traits pages. Tweaks can therefore be kept within balance factors there.

Anyhow, it took a long time to do this so I hope, as overwhelming as it may be, that it gets a careful review. My wife tells me I've been wasting my time as she thinks most of these ideas will be pushed aside. Probably so, but I felt I should share my ideal traits setup nevertheless.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Display of Great People on mouse-over shows -20% growth rate from Scientific. This is a display bug as the effect is not actual but it does mean the Final Great Person growth display per turn is off.

Unfortunately, I either simply don't understand what you're trying to say about this, or I cannot replicate the issue in any way I can interpret what you mean. I may need a save that shows this happening.

In the XML, there is nothing to say the noted traits should be getting a penalty to GP values and its not mentioning it in the game anywhere either. Are they supposed to be somehow? I do, on my test, have a stated penalty, -20% from Excessive Leader that can be seen in the city GP bar on the city screen. It's not showing on the main screen GP bar but I don't think it's supposed to and I have a feeling that's somewhat called by python commands.

Specialist Scientist should give 5 but only shows as giving 3. If this is an actual bug or just display I am not sure about yet.

This is working for me so perhaps I've inadvertently already debugged this effect. It does not break down that it's stemming from traits... rather, the specialist display simply gives what it is for you now, all modifiers combined. It would take me some serious time to figure out where I could manipulate things to give a breakdown there...

The +10% in Capitol does not work. I get the same bonuses in Capitol as in every other city.

This too is working for me. Not verified that its not showing in other cities though. Is that the problem? That its not filtering out this benefit for non-capitol cities? I'd think that'd be an easy fix if that's an issue. My test game has not reached the point where I can build another city yet but its coming up soon but if I KNOW its not working right then I can address it.

The +1 per City is not shown in any Breakdown of Science in any City. I don't know if this is Display or Bug.

Again... this is clearly showing for me... ??? It states +1 free Commerce.

Again, maybe I've incidentally debugged some of this with some recent changes. I think what I'll do now, since I've recently merged my changes with the current svn version, is push my changes and I'll ask you to update and see if things have cleared up for you. If not, please post a save that displays these issues.

One thing I'm wondering about some values though is if there is an arbitrary minimum 0 established in the dll in the expectation that those values would never go below 0 and that it would be some kind of bug if it did. I do get a lot of messages on those from the debug dll that makes sense considering that the original designers didn't intend some of these tags to ever have a negative value. I'll look into those and see if there's any minimums being enforced that with our current design concepts shouldn't be.

The debug dll has also let me know of a few minor calculation issues in the display pops that should be addressed but interestingly enough I think they may be coming up with errors simply because of errors in the check criteria rather than actual problems since they seem to be showing what they should - but then again if its not totaling right in the underlying data, we have a problem. So its not something to ignore.

Anyhow, I'll post an update soon and we can work forward from there k? There's some cool stuff coming along with that update, a New Years day present for C2C from me

And again, PLEASE review my Traits Proposal!

 

[Hydromancerx]

Sorry for not keeping up (I just noticed your document) but I really like your new trait. These make a lot more sense. I am also glad your are taking full advantage of the property systems (ex. Crime, Disease, Pollution, etc)

EDIT: I am not sure if this is possible but the Environmentalist Trait should somehow have a penalty for Hunting Animals. Or at least make them really bad at Hunting them.

 

[Sgtslick]

A number of good ideas and generally I like how your proposal is structured. I haven't had time to really go over it properly, just a quick scroll around really. Will definitely read through it properly - hopefully tomorrow when I have the energy/concentration
Are you currently working on the

traits file extensively to set up these new options..adding flavors and buttons and so on.

? Not trying to rush you, just curious, im also curious what exactlly this will entail - are you implementing the tiered affects which develop and expand as a consequence of the player and his/her choice(s)?

*edit* oh just read this..

Major Traits update
Does not change trait details but does:

• Add Leader Levelups Game Option
• Add Start with No Positive Traits Game Option
• Adds New Buttons to traits
• Adds Flavor tags and applies initial values to traits for use in Leader Levelup AI

Also: Reverts previous addition of bfirstfreeprophet tag use on Animism.

Now as this updates, I'm off to go explain these new options in a new thread in the main forum!

Looks like someone's gonna be playing some c2c tomorrow

 

[Thunderbrd]

EDIT: I am not sure if this is possible but the Environmentalist Trait should somehow have a penalty for Hunting Animals. Or at least make them really bad at Hunting them.

GREAT idea for a new tag! Could make the Hunter/Gatherer a bit more interesting to have the opposite too. Unfortunately, I'm at a bit of a loss on how to go about that since its interfacing with AIAndy's work to do so but we could possibly get his help on setting up something along those lines.

Looks like someone's gonna be playing some c2c tomorrow

Heh heh Cool Check out the new thread on that subject in the main forum area!

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Thunderbrd

Maybe Hunter-Gatherer trait could get a bonus to Animal Hunting.

Oh that gives me an idea. What about a Fisherman trait? Where you get bonus to Hunting Sea Animals. Maybe even better yields from sea resources as well. Note this would work in synergy with the Seafaring Trait.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I can see a few good ideas coming through there. New tags will be needed to flesh them out but I'll keep track of them for sure!

Under my proposal, Seafaring does gain some added benefits to sea improvements where it was possible to establish them.

 

[strategyonly]

@Thunderbrd

Maybe Hunter-Gatherer trait could get a bonus to Animal Hunting.

Oh that gives me an idea. What about a Fisherman trait? Where you get bonus to Hunting Sea Animals. Maybe even better yields from sea resources as well. Note this would work in synergy with the Seafaring Trait.

That idea is a good one, darn Hydro, sometimes you just amaze me how you "think."

 

[Hydromancerx]

I can see a few good ideas coming through there. New tags will be needed to flesh them out but I'll keep track of them for sure!

Under my proposal, Seafaring does gain some added benefits to sea improvements where it was possible to establish them.

I was thinking of the Fisherman Trait as being more of the Agricultural Trait for the Sea. Seafaring could still have a minor bonus. But having both traits would give you the best synergy.

In fact it would be great if somehow if you had synergy 2 traits they could give an extra bonus for having both. All through your list I see some that seem like they would make great synergy traits to each other.

 

[Sgtslick]

I can see a few good ideas coming through there. New tags will be needed to flesh them out but I'll keep track of them for sure!

lol indeed

 

[Thunderbrd]

I was thinking of the Fisherman Trait as being more of the Agricultural Trait for the Sea. Seafaring could still have a minor bonus. But having both traits would give you the best synergy.

In fact it would be great if somehow if you had synergy 2 traits they could give an extra bonus for having both. All through your list I see some that seem like they would make great synergy traits to each other.

Thank you for reviewing them closely enough to see how much thought was put into the idea of trait synergy!

And yeah, I still think there's some room for some new good ideas like that and that we should get crackin' on them so that we can have at least one static list at the beginning for us to divvy out to our leaderheads properly!

So I'd need to get an idea of what tags I need to implement into traits to make such a Fisherman trait work. The Hunter trait also sounds pretty cool and I can see the Hunter trait being the counterpart to Nomad that the Fisher trait would be to Seafaring.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

EDIT: I am not sure if this is possible but the Environmentalist Trait should somehow have a penalty for Hunting Animals. Or at least make them really bad at Hunting them.

I would have thought that they would be better at hunting and fishing because they "are at one" with the environment. Or maybe they should cause the resource placement option to happen more often. So they are more likely to get a dear resource instead of capturing the unit. They probably should get more and from a kill.

@Thunderbrd

Maybe Hunter-Gatherer trait could get a bonus to Animal Hunting.

Oh that gives me an idea. What about a Fisherman trait? Where you get bonus to Hunting Sea Animals. Maybe even better yields from sea resources as well. Note this would work in synergy with the Seafaring Trait.

These should not be difficult to do if the Outcome System has the expressions system in it. Which I think it does. Great more work for me - and it is very time consuming - I haven't yet changed the increase in and from kills based on the techs .