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Discussion in 'More Naval AI Modmod' started by Terkhen, Jan 19, 2013.

  1. akatosh

    akatosh Prince

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    I leave this board for three months and now everyone wants to nerf Loki???? :( Guys, the random OP stuff everywhere is what gives FFH2 its soul. From a single player perspective I gotta say, I love the fact that Loki can totally turn a game upside down... that's the whole point of Balseraphs, randomness and craziness. I mean, stealing a whole city just with the click of a button? What other Civ4 has something like that?

    In multiplayer he's a nonissue, I assume.

    PS My rant above notwithstanding, I wouldn't mind a Governor's Manor nerf ;)
     
  2. akatosh

    akatosh Prince

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    So after reading the past few pages of this thread I have a better picture of the Loki discussion. I'll post some of my brainstorming here. This is all from a single-player perspective:

    1) At its core, what makes FFH fun is the variety in the civs and how differently they play from each other. Unique mechanics like vaults, building in forests, and feasting are just plain fun even if they aren't perfectly balanced.

    2) In general, unique mechanics should be kept, and even expanded where they will increase fun and replayability.

    3) Just because something doesn't work in multiplayer doesn't mean it should be nerfed out of the single-player experience. Multiplayer is a totally different animal and is fun in a different way from single player.

    4) I personally don't mind the occasional single-player game going totally borked because Bals overextended or grew too fast. If it gets messed up to the point where it's not fun, just restart... the cost of restarting a single player game is a lot lower than MP. In MNAI, AI players get eliminated all the time and it's not like the Balseraph problem happens in every game. I personally like my games to have some variety and unpredictability.

    5) Loki is a wonderfully unique thing. Balseraphs are the culture war/randomness civ, and we should explore ways to make these aspects a core part of Balseraph gameplay. Loki's already a nonissue in multiplayer and there are plenty of reasons to play Bals in MP without him (puppets, starting tech, leader with 3 traits, good melee line).

    6) Right now, it seems like Disrupt is either too strong or too weak--if the target city has no culture you get it for free, and if it has any stable culture Disrupt basically does nothing except cost you micro time. We should explore mechanics that make Disrupt a core part of Balseraph gameplay, throughout the game.

    ----

    I think Loki should still have something to do with flipping cities. It's an alternate form of warfare and a way to take over new territory. One idea mentioned above that might work is to give Disrupt a casting cost of 100-200g if the culture is zero, so that prevents Bals from stealing large numbers of cities early. You basically have to sacrifice a couple of early techs in order to take over a city.

    Another idea would be to give Loki a scaling culture boost/drain based on game era, and not let Disrupt steal the city by itself. Someone above mentioned weakening a city's cultural defenses and using your own nearby city to cause a natural flip. So the enemy could have a medium-strength culture city, and Balseraph builds a new settlement nearby. Loki builds up the new city's culture to 3-4 rings, and then moves to the enemy target and starts draining culture. In a way he would act like a reusable artist bomb. But this strategy needs to have some teeth; it needs to be somewhat competitive with just building a stack of freak-->swordsmen and just sacking the city... maybe since Loki's never used in MP anyway, change him so that the subtle culture flip strategy doesn't incur diplomatic penalties with the AI. It would be like fighting an undeclared war. Also make it that Loki can be attacked at any time, but that a war dec still allows him to enter cities?

    Also, what if we gave Disrupt a counter? Like, you have to land 5 successful Disrupts in a row in order to flip a city? That would still give you the ability to steal cities, but you would have far fewer of them. AI players would have time to get culture producers built once Loki is on the prowl, etc.

    Another idea: What if we changed the city stealing to a new spell, and turned it into a promotion like the Metamagic 3 staff? Like, once he casts the "Steal City" spell, he loses the promotion and has to rebuy it. We could call it "impersonate mayor" or something... Loki uses a portion of his life force to impersonate the city governor, but he can only do that a limited number of times. Because of how the XP scaling works, you'd only be able to use Disrupt a limited number of times before the XP cost becomes prohibitive. And you'd be forgoing other (potentially) useful promotions.
     
  3. Qgqqqqq

    Qgqqqqq Emperor

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    Quickly:

    It's been awhile since most of the discussion took place, but I don't recall anyone saying this. In multiplayer Loki is SotC bait, mostly. Unless you're playing MP with AIs, in which case...you're not playing competitively, and things like Loki are going to be met with varying feedback from player-to-player and their expectations (for instance, Akatosh's enjoyment of randomness might carry over to a non-competitive MP experience). Loki, much like Veil of the Night, Hyborem's Whisper, Trust and Hidden Nationality should be considered solely in the single-player light.

    IMO, of course.
     
  4. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    just so you know, loki doesn't earn xp, and cannot buy promotions even if he accidentaly get xp (tribal hut)
    that said, I like where your ideas are going.

    IMO what would work for Loki twofold:
    -increasing the effect : so it works even later in game. "25 culture effect"
    -having a cost : a cast costs : 25gold per culture level of target city, + 5 per 10 tiles from baleseraph capital. 25 gold per re-cast into the city: being costly it cannot be spammed; however you can get low cities with low culture/turn for 30-100 gold...

    or something like that...
     
  5. Terkhen

    Terkhen King

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    Thank you, I will add a note about that to the installation instructions before I release the next version.

    As Qgqqqqq mentioned, Multiplayer was not considered an issue besides some people commenting that "using Disrupt on MP would just make everyone ally against the Balseraphs".

    I do, though. Replayability and unpredictability are very interesting and I love them, but I don't like my games becoming unplayable or boring. I changed my mind from not considering this as an issue to making it a top priority after playing some games with sneaky continents against the Balseraphs; feel free to pick up the last MNAI version (which is the one that includes the improved Loki AI) and play with this set up.

    I was the one who mentioned that. It is not just an idea, that's the already implemented Disrupt for the next release (along with teaching the AI to understand it):

    I think I already described why I'm against "Loki with XP" and "Losing promotions" earlier in the thread in my discussions with Sarmatian.

    What does SotC mean?

    To everyone, about the Disrupt topic: I'm sorry to be blunt but I think that this topic has had enough months of brainstorming implementations for now (we could say that it is disrupting the thread ;) ). For now I prefer to concentrate the discussion on the current implementation and (once I get some time to make a release) to get feedback about the current implementation. If after the release you feel that this new solution is not good for some reason, feel free to make a post detailing why it is bad, and include a single, detailed proposal on how it should work and why. Thank you!
     
  6. Qgqqqqq

    Qgqqqqq Emperor

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    Shrine of the Champion, sorry.
     
  7. Terkhen

    Terkhen King

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    Ok :)

    I'm kind of stumped with this python exception.

    Code:
    Traceback (most recent call last):
    
      File "CvRandomEventInterface", line 417, in applyExploreLairDwarfVsLizardmen2
    
      File "CustomFunctions", line 968, in findClearPlot
    
    AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'getX'
    ERR: Python function applyExploreLairDwarfVsLizardmen2 failed, module CvRandomEventInterface
    I've seen it happen some times already, and always in the callbacks for the dwarves vs lizardmen event. It seems as if the plot of the unit would be invalid, but I don't see any difference between this callback and other similar event callbacks. Anyone has any ideas about it?
     
  8. Terkhen

    Terkhen King

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  9. Terkhen

    Terkhen King

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    ExtraModMod 0.5.0 is now available.

    0.5.0 includes many bugfixes, a merge with the latest version of More Naval AI and a few features. The most noticeable ones are the following:

    • Most spells now interrupt unit cycling, by denev
    • Disrupt now removes an amount of culture equal to 80% of the city production or 3, whichever is bigger. It won't steal cities anymore. The AI should take these changes into account.
    • Pitboss wizard now allows to see all game options.

    Bug reports and feedback are welcome. The Puppet States OOS is not fixed as I didn't have time to create a test game for it. If you can provide a multiplayer savegame in which it is possible to create a puppet state immediately, it would be greatly appreciated. The Testing Guide is meant to help in creating OOS bug reports and any others. The full changelog of this version can be checked below:

    Spoiler :
    ExtraModMod 0.5.0

    More Naval AI version: 2.62 plus a bugfix.

    Features

    • New graphics for the flesh golem.
    • Koun now gets Tolerant.
    • AI XP bonuses by difficulty reduced to 6/Deity, 4/Immortal, 3/Emperor, 2/Monarch, 1/Prince.
    • Many new Civilopedia texts, coming from the Lore Compendium and the Bestiary.
    • Hide explored unique features from the Civilopedia.
    • Pitboss wizard now allows to see all game options.
    • Most spells now interrupt unit cycling.
    • A message is shown when roads are pillaged.
    • A message is displayed when Wonders are captured or destroyed.
    • Allow to declare war even if the AI refuses to talk.
    • It is no longer possible to enable hidden game options by changing game options in other mods.
    • Show an animal tab in Civilopedia.

    Changes

    • Entering Letum Frigus now grants only a golden age for the Illians.
    • Dragon no longer causes fear. Abashi, Acheron, Drifa and Eurabrates now get the Fear promotion. Meteor now requires both Dragon and Fear. Roar now requires both Dragon and Fear.
    • Disrupt now removes an amount of culture equal to 80% of the city production or 3, whichever is bigger. It won't steal cities anymore. The AI should take these changes into account.

    Fixes

    • Removed a python exception on FracturedWorld when not using RandomMap.
    • Resolved many pitboss issues.
    • Prevent a potential OOS error in Hyborem's Whisper.
    • Prevent a crash on the Hall of Fame screen.
    • Prevent a crash triggered by human vassals with unmet masters on multiplayer games.
    • Wilboman no longer can enter burning sands.
    • It is now possible again to choose Decius alignment.
    • Do not show city civ4lerts that will trigger after growth when growth control is enabled.
    • Prevent a divide by zero error with the barbarian bar.

    More Naval AI changes

    • Few minor AI tweaks for units.
    • Increased the number of troops spawned during Revolution events.
    • Frostling Archers can now have UNITAI_ATTACK.
    • Tweak to how the AI decides to build Temples of the Hand.
    • Units will no longer display positive damage messages when damaging themselves.
    • Update to Worldbuilder 4.13b.
    • UNITAI_COUNTER units will now be assigned to GROUPFLAG_CONQUEST.
    • Minor tweaks to how the AI chooses production.
    • Fix to canMakePuppet.
    • On the zoomed out Culture map, a player must have at least 20% culture on the plot before their player color will be shown on that plot.
    • Fix for a potential error in the Hell Terrain code.
    • Tweaks to Terraformer AI.
    • Given some AIWeight to the Release from Cage spell.
    • AI will now include AI_getPuppetAttitude() in its attitude value.
    • Fix for issues with Goblin Forts and Scorpion Clan Archers.
    • Fix for Illusionary units messing up the unit created count; Killing an Illusionary World unit should no longer trigger the global death message.
    • AI should be more willing to found cities (and maybe a little smarter about it), especially during wartime.

    BarbsPlus changes

    • Orthus now spawns preferably in medium wilderness.
    • Barbarians can't upgrade units with SpawnInfo (weird promotions/artstyle).

    Erebus in the Balance changes

    • Favored promotion is no longer lost when upgrading units.

    Events Enhanced changes

    • Centaur Pants event options now enabled.
    • Clairone event now requires a minimum population instead of a tech and gives only 3 temporary unhappiness.
    • Patron of Knowledge event has been fixed.
    • No Aeron's Chosen for world units.
    • Reworked "Don't kill it" option of the unicorn event.
    • Fixed and tweaked orphaned goblin event. Can only trigger once per player now.
    • Joining and splitting commander should now transfer names properly.


    In the first post of this thread you can find the links for downloads, wiki, Features, future plans and other useful information.
     
  10. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    thanks, and some of those changes are nice... esp the message for capturing wonders :D
     
  11. [to_xp]Gekko

    [to_xp]Gekko QCT junkie

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    very nice work as usual, thanks :)
     
  12. alpav

    alpav Prince

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    Is it possible to add the ethnic citystyles from Fall Further into this mod?
     
  13. Terkhen

    Terkhen King

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  14. alpav

    alpav Prince

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    That is exactly it. Thanks. One more thing, what is Advanced Tactics?
     
  15. Terkhen

    Terkhen King

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  16. alpav

    alpav Prince

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    -deleted-
     
  17. Jojo_Fr

    Jojo_Fr Prince

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    Thank you very much to continue to keep on the flamme of FFH2 with this ExtraModMod 0.5.0. :)
     
  18. Sarmatian

    Sarmatian Chieftain

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    I wanted to try EMM in multiplayer with two friends but we have trouble getting it to work.

    Vanilla BTS worked perfectly in Tunngle. Now we joined the BTS network in Tunngle (we all have BTS properly patched and a clean install of FFH2 0.41n -> patched to 0.41o and then EMM 0.50 copied over it).

    We can't see each other in multiplayer lobby. Direct IP works, but that doesn't help us as there is 3 of us. We tried vanilla BTS and everything works fine.

    Then we tried Hamachi, but we have similar problems, only two of us could see each other, but at least it was the same situation both in vanilla BTS and EMM. I'm guessing it has something to do with Hamachi, but I'm not skilled enough to figure out what.

    What do you guys use to play EMM or FFH in multiplayer? Do GameRanger or Evolve work better?
     
  19. DarkLunaPhantom

    DarkLunaPhantom Prince Supporter

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    You can use Direct IP for more players with this fix: http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthread.php?tid=7544 .

    Ticking or unticking the last option in PitBoss map setup (Advanced tactics) causes a python exception (index out of range).
     
  20. Sarmatian

    Sarmatian Chieftain

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