I believe my previous answers make it clear that I already agreed on changing this Loki ability. I may disagree on how strong the ability is, but since I'm asking for changes already I don't see the point of trying to convince me of something I'm already convinced about.
For the sake of discussion, I ran 3 test games until turn 300. In the first one I used settings which I believe would make things even simpler for Loki to run amok:
- Pangaea map
- Small size
- Weevil as Balseraph leader (Loki won't get disturbed by barbarians). He plays at Settler difficulty.
- Anagantios, Dumannios, Minister Koun, Riuros. Neither of these leaders is Creative, they have no military traits that could help early against Loki, and they are agnostic so getting culture from religion is out of the question.
The Balseraph AI took three of the closest cities early and was at the top of the score table. It soon ended up at war with two of the Illians, who reconquered all the lost cities and drove the Balseraphs to one corner. By turn 240, only the Balseraph capital remained and it was in an eternal siege. The Balseraphs were at the bottom of the score table at this time. At turn 281, the Balseraph AI capitulated and became a vassal of one of the Illians.
For the second game, I thought that maybe the three Illians loved each other so I just used four random evil leaders as adversaries. At the beginning they would love the Balseraphs so any action against them because of Loki would be delayed. Loki started taking a lot of cities far away from the Balseraph capital. By turn 150 Charadon conquered back the three cities he had lost. Sheelba lost two cities and was at peace with the Balseraphs but preparing a war plan. Soon after that those two cities were taken too and the Balseraphs had been driven back to having only their capital and being at war with half of the world again. Weevil lost the game at turn 195.
On the third test game, I used Large size and Marathon game speed. Random Balseraph leader, and random opponents. Loki was created at about turn 290 (at a time at which the Balseraphs already had 3 cities), and it was quickly sent into the wilderness. Loki soon stole a city from Sheelba, who declared war and reconquered it. Shortly after that, he started taking cities from the Luchuirp and letting the Barbarians raze them. This also triggered a war with the Luchuirp. At this point, the Balseraphs were again dropped to the bottom of the score table. On turn 468 they were driven again to only a city while still being at a total war agains two AIs.
I don't believe these games are representative enough; I'm sure that in some cases the Balseraphs manage to pull off a dominant position but I think I already have enough cases to prove my point. My conclusion is that Loki's ability to steal cities is certainly problematic, but for different reasons than the ones you believe. The first and most important one is that the AI is too eager to steal cities, even when it is detrimental (the city is too far away, it is angering a powerful opponent, it is already losing 10 gold per turn and so on). The second one is that although opponents can certainly recover from the loss of these cities, Loki changes the dynamics of the early game too much and being too dominant. The third and final one is that the "conquer and raze" strategy is extremely bothersome. As I assumed, being too greedy when using Loki leads to a loss, not to a victory. I may not agree with you, but we agree upon the need of changing this ability. Let's talk proposals now
By the way, I'm glad that you managed to fix your problem with ExtraModMod. What was causing it?
Mutation is Chaos 2.
Charm is Mind 2, and Shadow-walk is Shadow 2.
Loki used to have channeling 1 and channeling 2, along with these three spheres, in order to purchase spells. I usually gave him mutation, and then perhaps charm. Inspiration is a useful enough spell, and *mutation* alone is likely worth Loki's hammer cost. You could strengthen the 'size' of the culture drain, (or even have it be small + a percentage, but harder to code) ... and just have it leave the city's culture at 1 (or 0) without actually going below Culture = 1, so that the city never converts. That way you need local Balseraph culture
Loki's spell could reduce culture by 4 culture per turn, and it also 'creates' a temporary building that applies a -50% culture production modifier. Perhaps simply return all values of negative numbers (and zero) as 1. Therefore the culture can never go below 1 and the city will never flip!
**The spell itself shouldn't add rival culture/influence, just lower local culture.
I agree with this.
However, then, maybe the culture swap could be more important (in number) to still have an effect on cities with some culture production.
or maybe it does not impact "culture" per se, but "influence" ? (it would be articifial... but why not)(like when you conquer a city than was from another civ... the influence does not change your amount of culture, but the history of the plot...)
like: Loki increases balserpah influence in city by 10% : with 5 spells, the city should be proposing to switch to baleseraph... especially if nearby baleseraph empire.
or maybe 10%, with max effect similar to 10 culture for 10 turns.
Loki used to have channeling 1 and channeling 2, along with these three spheres, in order to purchase spells. I usually gave him mutation, and then perhaps charm. Inspiration is a useful enough spell, and *mutation* alone is likely worth Loki's hammer cost. You could strengthen the 'size' of the culture drain, (or even have it be small + a percentage, but harder to code) ... and just have it leave the city's culture at 1 (or 0) without actually going below Culture = 1, so that the city never converts. That way you need local Balseraph culture
Loki's spell could reduce culture by 4 culture per turn, and it also 'creates' a temporary building that applies a -50% culture production modifier. Perhaps simply return all values of negative numbers (and zero) as 1. Therefore the culture can never go below 1 and the city will never flip!
**The spell itself shouldn't add rival culture/influence, just lower local culture.
I already mentioned my idea of giving Loki the Hero promotion and giving him access to Loki only promotions (and just those, no combat or anything like that). Those promotions should be like combat promotions - ie you can only take Combat 2 if you have already taken Combat 1, and have the ability to take over cities be the last available promotion. During that time, other civs can build a few core cities with some culture and some army so they can deal with both losing a city and going to war. Loki also couldn't take too many cities and bankrupt Balseraph or invite war.
Well, there are some spells that create a temporary beneficial building, so it works at least for your own cities.Creating temporary buildings would need extensive DLL changes and I don't think it would be worth the coding effort for just this ability.
Well, there are some spells that create a temporary beneficial building, so it works at least for your own cities.
It that worked, you'd only have to cast the spell once; and the whole -80% culture business would be a lot more elegant. The only thing to do in python would be probably the gold you gain every turn.
Besides, the problems with lairs should be fixed now (a stupid little bug was preventing especially barrows to spawn), thanks to everybody who reported!
All right, so the existing mechanic would allow Loki to cast Entertain IIRC. Scratch that then.Entertain is the spell that grants gold (stealing it from the owner of the city), while Disrupt reduces culture and causes anger. If Disrupt were changed to a building, that would allow to steal gold and remove culture at the same time. Therefore, with "temporary buildings" I assumed that the proposal what about making the building either last X turns (as part of the spell effect) or be removed when Loki casts an spell other than Disrupt.
Awesome, thank you! I think that it would be a good idea to release a new beta soon now that this is fixed, because right now Wilderness cannot be tested completely. beta3 would come later with a few more goodies and bugfixes. Since my new development environment already arrived, I'm going to run a few hours of automated multiplayer games hoping to find those mysterious OOS errors and fix them for beta2 too. Expect a new release this weekend or next week.
lfgr: Once that the bugfixes are done I'm going to continue with many of the new proposed items and contribute them in time for inclusion in beta3. I'm choosing this because it is one of the most noticeable missing features, and also one less likely to break stuff. Let me know if you think that I should focus on something else.
newUnit = pPlayer.initUnit(iUnit, pPlayer.getCapitalCity().getX(), pPlayer.getCapitalCity().getY(), UnitAITypes.UNITAI_MISSIONARY, DirectionTypes.DIRECTION_SOUTH)
- Disrupt reduces culture by 80% of the value that the city is currently generating. If this value is smaller than 3, 3 would be used instead. These values are just what I consider interesting for the ability to work, but they could certainly be tweaked.
- Disrupt no longer can make cities flip automatically. The city can still flip by other causes.
- Currently, Loki AI gives a value to all known enemy cities, valuing how much gold it would get by Entertain, if it needs gold badly and if there is any city with 0 culture (these get a very high value). This value is scaled down depending on how far the city is. The Disrupt part of the calculation would be modified to giving greater value to enemy cities adjacent to Balseraph territory, and a huge value to enemy cities nearing Legendary culture owned by players who have at least two cities at this level.
This proposal for Disrupt allows three strategies: take over enemy cities with poor culture production (Monument or less) as long as there is a Balseraph city very close creating a lot of culture, helping Balseraph frontiers grow by negating the culture of nearby enemy cities, and to delay enemy cultural victories. By modifying how the AI chooses city targets for Loki in the way I described, it would automatically use these three strategies when possible (and if it is not giving Entertain a higher priority). Since these strategies are in my opinion quite useful, I don't consider this proposal a great nerf and therefore Loki would need no additional changes.
1) In multi, cultural victories rarely happen. You need to have military muscle to enforce it, because if you don't, other players will declare war on you. If you do have the military muscle, it's easier and simpler to go for conquest/domination. From my experience and what I've been tracking online, 90+% of victories in multi are conquest/dominations.
Actually, most victories that don't go to concession are done via ToM. It's simply easier than taking the time to kill everyone off, presuming that you're not winning in the axeman stage.
That's probably less given not-very-recent EitB changes, but again, most victories go to concession anyway.
Just wanted to say I got another CTD, this time connected to puppet states. I couldn't find out the exact reason yet, but the whole section is buggy and needs a rewrite.
// Leader categories START
// Extra scenario leaders are currently always allowed as valid leaders for puppet states,
// even if their game option is disabled.
CvLeaderHeadInfo[B]&[/B] currentLeader = GC.getLeaderHeadInfo((LeaderHeadTypes)j);
if (currentLeader.getLeaderCategory() == LEADERCATEGORY_EXTRA && !GC.getGameINLINE().isOption(GAMEOPTION_LEADER_EXTRA)) {
// If extra leaders have not been selected, avoid using them.
bLeaderValid = false;
continue;
}
// Leader categories END
Urgh, got it. You forgot an &.
But I will remove this code soon, anyway.
Hey
I just found out about this mod and tried the newest beta version. I hope this is the right place to post this kind of problem.
Sorry, wait with what for what exactly?Oh, are you going to make more changes to Puppet States? That reminds me of something. Tholal mentioned that he wasn't going to include version 1.6 of Puppet States but I wouldn't mind having it in ExtraModMod. I found an OOS error while checking at the code but my computer problems and later the crashes prevented me from actually testing if the solution I already have coded works. I was planning on releasing a beta2 after killing the CTD, and keeping solutions for OOS errors until beta3 (as fixing a broken beta has preference over anything else). Should I wait for this particular one?
Welcome, Kariga! This is indeed the place for talking about ExtraModMod. You are probably experiencing the same CTD that we were talking about in the posts above yours. Thank you about reporting that trace; it also points to the same error that lfgr pointed out. I'm currently running tests after fixing that coding error; if there are no more CTDs I will release beta2 ASAP. I'm sorry about this inconvenience, and I hope you enjoy future versions more than this one
EDIT: I was wrong, the CTD Kariga reported must have a different cause because I got it after fixing the error reported by lfgr I will keep searching.
EDIT2: Kariga, did you use the World Builder in the games in which you got a CTD?
EDIT: The 100% spread chance for disciples change (CvEventManager.py, onTechAcquired) causes the game to crash when Hyborem is summoned. The free missionary is initialized with garbage since Hyborem has no capital:
Code:newUnit = pPlayer.initUnit(iUnit, pPlayer.getCapitalCity().getX(), pPlayer.getCapitalCity().getY(), UnitAITypes.UNITAI_MISSIONARY, DirectionTypes.DIRECTION_SOUTH)
Sorry, wait with what for what exactly?
I'll try to fix the puppet states bug mentioned in my last post's EDIT soon and forward the fix to Tholal. I don't think it will interfere with your OOS fix.
Besides, is your problem that you are running Windows in VirtualBox? If that's the case, I could do OOS debugging myself.
I guess it's the following CTD, which AFAIK you didn't fix yet: