ExtraModMod

Qgqqqqq · Jan 22, 2013

LeAders *i* would never pick: melisandre (perp gets better ones) furia/weevil/hafgan (slaver/barb or defender or bounty hunter=/=a proper trait) duin (same for magic resistant), enjoin/ethne (again defender sucks, advise EitB combos), ulandor/ostanes (same again, not proper traits), auric/braedon (never count on letmus, barb/ingen isn't any good), amelanhier (overshadowed by those with proper traits), rovanna (see previous) sandal phon (defender :rolleyes:

)
Afaict, bountyhunter/slaver/savage/barb/ingenuity/defender don't match up to the likes of PHI/CRE/ORG/ARC etc. and only deserve a place as a third trait (except defender which IMO should be scrapped entirely). I'm not sure how to rate sage, while agrarian seems borderline overpowered (but has been well distributed to avoid a problem), cheron feels anti synergistic.

I'm eager to try riuros and Kane out (Kane because the traits are awesome, riuros to see how ice mana spiritual PoW urn out).

Question: do you have the favored/potency setup from EitB?

Qgqqqqq · Jan 22, 2013

Sorry for horrible spelling/grammar/occasional autocorrect - I'm on my phone ATM.

Qgqqqqq · Jan 23, 2013

Sorry to be spamming this, but what are the yields (both improved and unimproved), of the extra resources and what techs do they require?
Does amber give happiness with forges?

Calavente · Jan 23, 2013

I'm not sure EitB is the way to go...
they improved balanced, true, but they also changed the pacing of the early game... and they balanced the things taking that into account....

IMO, here, EitB is cited much because you have 2--3 EitB fans that follow your mod.
However there are other ways to do things.

and seriously, building a battering ram out of nearby tree is not something so inventive that the doviello could not do it.
IMO it is much easier than building a catapult.
and much better adapted to dov than to khazad.

(and doviello are not stoopid... it's just that they prefer fighting over thinking. I'm sure they even settle their academic different with duels to the blood. This explain why they get lower science : their sage lose much time fighting and improving their fighting skills instead of thinking and inventing.)

Qgqqqqq · Jan 23, 2013

Calavente said:
I'm not sure EitB is the way to go...
they improved balanced, true, but they also changed the pacing of the early game... and they balanced the things taking that into account....

IMO, here, EitB is cited much because you have 2--3 EitB fans that follow your mod.

I am an EitB fan, but the changes you references had already been rolled into the mod before it was released.
Moreover this is mp focussed, and the slow early game is much worse in mp, + EitB was made with mp in mind, so is a natural source of inspiration.

Terkhen · Jan 23, 2013

akatosh said:
Re: governor's manors, I agree with you that it's a very fun mechanic. My issue is that I don't think there is any other building in the game that 1) unlocks at a crucial tech 2) 2 of the civ leaders can build at half price and 3) provides +10 for most cities and often +20 by the late game. In some ways this is even better than elves' ability to build in forests.

For a nerf, +2 per unhappy and -2 per happy might be going a little too far. You'd need very big cities for this to have a measurable impact. Maybe that's what you're going for though. Perhaps just scaling it down? Like +1 per 2 unhappy citizens?

I created an issue for this.

Qgqqqqq: I already mentioned that the blasting workshop change is going to be removed. Since I'm planning to merge EitB, Defender would go out and my leader/trait assignments would be changed. Once that's done, we can think about rebalancing them.

I disagree with "slaver" being bad, though. Although it is certainly not the new Financial or Aggressive, a 10% to commerce and a free promotion that allows you to get "workers" is not bad either. Weevil is able to stack Taskmaster and civics bonus to get a relatively big slaving chance. Duin is fine as he stands IMO. It's not like other Doviello leaders are getting great traits, and Charismatic/Magic Resistant lets you get many promotions and customize your units against magic users in the late game. Bounty hunter could be changed, improved or replaced by something else, yes. Braeden fits his unique role nicely: he is a leader meant to be bad, and he certainly is

Calavente: As Qgqqqqq mentioned, the EitB changes that modify the pacing of the game are already included. IMO they are an improvement, otherwise the game feels too slow. Can you elaborate on "other ways to do balance"? IMO it would be better to not duplicate balancing work, but I'm open for alternatives.

I'm planning a mayor revamp of the ExtraModMod repository. It would make development far more easier, both individual and collaborative. I think that it could allow even to create versions with and without huge changes such as a possible EitB inclusion and so on. You can see this issue report for details: https://bitbucket.org/Terkhen/extramodmod/issue/13/make-extramodmod-repository-schema-branch

Qgqqqqq · Jan 23, 2013

Yeah slaver I was a bit iffy on, I suppose I generally wage war after Ihave my workforce setup.
Huh, for some reason I thought the dovvelio leaders had been improved. As is halfnorn fits in well (though again, third is why I don't intend to play them).

Qgqqqqq · Jan 23, 2013

Can it be made so soldiers of kilmorph don't obsolete?
Their secondary ability (transferable production) isn't a property of its replacements (paramanders) and is a weakness for the clan.

Qgqqqqq · Jan 23, 2013

Can it be made so soldiers of kilmorph don't obsolete?
Their secondary ability (transferable production) isn't a property of its replacements (paramanders) and is a weakness for the clan.

akatosh · Jan 23, 2013

Agree, Soldiers of Kilmorph should not obsolete.

scutarii · Jan 26, 2013

Some python errors...

Spoiler :

Terkhen · Jan 26, 2013

Qgqqqqq said:
Yeah slaver I was a bit iffy on, I suppose I generally wage war after Ihave my workforce setup.

You can also sacrifice them for production or sell them with Undercouncil

Qgqqqqq said:
Can it be made so soldiers of kilmorph don't obsolete?
Their secondary ability (transferable production) isn't a property of its replacements (paramanders) and is a weakness for the clan.

akatosh said:
Agree, Soldiers of Kilmorph should not obsolete.

I agree with you, I have added an issue to remember to add this change when I finish the code refactor.

scutarii said:
Some python errors...

Thank you for the reports!

The first issue (Fertility) is an error when checking if the unit can cast that spell or not; I forgot to check if the owner of the tile is valid before checking if the owner of the tile is in the same team than the unit owner. I'll fix this bug for the next version, but since that is going to take a little while I'm attaching a CvSpellInterface file that should fix the error. Since I can't currently test it I recommend to make a backup of the old CvSpellInterface file before applying it. The unzipped file should be placed at Mods\Fall from Heaven 2\Assets\python\entrypoints and it should replace the old one.

The second error happens when you capture an enemy unit with Advanced Tactics on and the game tries to show text information about the capture. To fix this (and to know if it is caused by my changes or it is present in MNAI) I'm going to need more information. What units were involved in that combat? What leader were you using and what leader owned the enemy unit? If you have a savegame that I can use to reproduce the issue that would be great too

scutarii · Jan 26, 2013

the last issue...reproduceable with save. Attack Kane's galley with frigate....

Terkhen · Jan 26, 2013

Thank you for the savegame! I managed to reproduce the error with it. From what I gather the issue should be present in More Naval AI too. I have reported the issue here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=12178286#post12178286

Terkhen · Feb 16, 2013

As you may know, for the next release of ExtraModMod I'm planning to merge it with all of EitB changes. This means that the leader traits are going to change a lot. I have compared my original list of leaders with the changes made in EitB, and I have also checked the changes proposed in MNAI Essentials. I also removed bountyhunter, because it felt weak and I could not think of any good way to give it a boost. Below are the results of what I plan to do (changes are indicated by an asterisk). Bear in mind that Erebus in the Balance also changes some default traits (see below too):

Financial gives +25% Gold in Cities and fast Markets and Moneychangers
Industrious gives +100% to Forges, +50% to Wonders, and +25% to Workers
Spiritual grants Mob1 and Favored (Disciple-Only Potency) to Disciple Units
Arcane grants Mo1 and Potency to Arcane units

Amurites (No civilization trait)
• Dain(Neutral): Arcane, Philosophical
• Tya(Neutral)*: Sage, Spiritual
• Valledia(Neutral): Arcane, Organized

Balseraphs (No civilization trait)
• Furia(Neutral)*: Financial, Sage
• Keelyn(Evil): Creative, Summoner
• Melisandre(Evil)*: Industrious, Expansive
• Perpentach(Evil): Arcane, Charismatic, Creative, Insane
• Weevil(Evil)*: Barbarian, Charismatic, Slaver

Bannor (Guardsman)
• Capria(Good): Spiritual, Financial*
• Decius(Neutral): Organized, Raiders
• Sabathiel(Good): Charismatic, Organized
• Tethira(Good)*: Aggressive, Expansive

Calabim (No civilization trait)
• Alexis(Evil): Aggressive, Organized*
• Decius(Neutral): Organized, Raiders
• Flauros(Evil): Financial, Philosophical*
• Mahon(Evil)*: Agrarian, Savage

Clan of Embers (Barbarian)
• Hafgan(Evil)*: Charismatic, Raiders
• Jonas(Evil): Expansive, Spiritual
• Sheelba(Evil): Aggressive, Organized

Doviello (Savage*)
• Charadon(Evil): Aggressive, Barbarian, Charismatic*
• Duin(Evil)*: Charismatic, Slaver, Magic Resistant
• Mahala(Evil): Expansive*, Ingenuity, Raiders

Elohim (Tolerant)
• Einion(Good): Charismatic*, Philosophical
• Ethne(Good): Creative, Organized*
• Thessalonica(Neutral)*: Industrious, Spiritual

Grigori (Agnostic)
• Cassiel(Neutral): Adaptive(Org), Organized*, Philosophical
• Koun(Neutral)*: Organized, Sage

Hippus (Horselord)
• Ostanes(Neutral)*: Organized, Slaver
• Rhoanna(Neutral): Expansive, Financial
• Tasunke(Neutral): Aggressive, Raiders
• Uldanor(Neutral)*: Creative, Industrious

Illians (Agnostic)
• Anagantios(Evil)*: Philosophical, Organized
• Auric(Evil): Charismatic, Arcane*
• Braeden(Evil)*: Barbarian, Ingenuity, Savage
• Dumannios(Evil)*: Arcane, Sage
• Riuros(Evil)*: Financial, Spiritual

Infernal (Fallow)
• Hyborem(Evil): Aggressive*, Barbarian, Summoner

Khazad (Ingenuity)
• Arturus(Neutral): Aggressive*, Industrious
• Kandros(Neutral): Financial, Organized*

Kuriotates (Sprawling)
• Cardith(Good): Adaptive(Phi), Expansive, Philosophical
• Cheron(Good)*: Agrarian, Raiders (Rise from Erebus)

Lanun (No civilization trait)
• Hannah(Neutral): Financial, Raiders
• Falamar(Neutral): Charismatic, Expansive

Ljosalfar (Dexterous)
• Amelanchier(Neutral): Philosophical*, Raiders
• Arendel(Good): Creative, Spiritual
• Thessa(Neutral): Arcane, Expansive

Luchuirp (No civilization trait)
• Beeri(Good): Financial, Industrious
• Garrim(Good): Arcane*, Financial

Malakim (No civilization trait)
• Decius(Neutral): Organized, Raiders
• Kane(Neutral)*: Agrarian, Barbarian, Financial
• Varn(Good): Adaptive(Cha), Charismatic*, Spiritual

Mercurian (No civilization trait)
• Basium(Good): Aggressive, Ingenuity, Raiders

Sheaim (Sundered)
• Averax(Evil)*: Aggressive, Barbarian, Organized
• Gosea(Evil)*: Philosophical, Slaver
• Malchavic(Evil)*: Expansive, Sage
• Os-Gabella(Evil): Spiritual*, Summoner
• Tebryn(Evil): Arcane, Summoner

Sidar (No civilization trait)
• Sandalphon(Neutral): Philosophical*, Industrious
• Shekinah(Neutral)*: Arcane, Creative

Svartalfar (Sinister)
• Faeryl(Evil): Arcane, Raiders
• Rivanna(Neutral)*: Organized, Summoner
• Volanna(Evil)*: Aggressive, Spiritual

Feedback is welcome

EDIT: Added a note about EitB trait changes.

Qgqqqqq · Feb 16, 2013

Quick observation - why are averax and sheelba exactly the same?

Terkhen · Feb 17, 2013

Because the same combination seemed right for Averax too. EitB uses Agg/Bar/Cre for Averax, which IMO does not fit the leader much (even if it fits Averax's rushing possibilities from a gameplay standpoint). Given that the Sheaim lost their Industrious leader, this trait may be a good option as well, although I'm not sure if it fits Averax much. EDIT: Also, that would give him the same traits than Arturus if we ignore the BAR. I don't mind if we have a single repetition, though.

scutarii · Feb 17, 2013

Terkhen, are you planning something for underused civics?

Tholal · Feb 17, 2013

Qgqqqqq said:
Can it be made so soldiers of kilmorph don't obsolete?

This has been part of MNAI for almost a year now... :eek:

[to_xp]Gekko · Feb 17, 2013

that's my fault for failing to test before reporting issues... lies spread fast!

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