Eyes

[angeleyes]

Asperger i am not sure if aspergers syndrom in you wasn't caused by something your parents did. [....]

Asperger is a nickname for me, i indeed don't have the syndrome. If i did have known there were a lot of them here i would have chosen another name.

 

[cegman]

LOL well I pretty much assume everyone here has it.

Although many of the things you have said in this post and in other posts make it seem like you do have the syndrome.

 

[Heretic_Cata]

That is actually harder than you think... but once you can do that you get a huge self-esteem boost.

I hope so, that doesn't happen very often.
K - i'll practice when i get a chance.

What surprises me is that most girls are totally NOT afraid to keep looking at guys in the eye. These, of course, are mostly attractive girls. And they WILL keep looking.

That's because they are so used to intimidate other guys that they have NOTHING to fear from anybody. They are used to being the dominant ones. And by you looking even longer than them, it basically tells your whole life's story of your dominance. (Okay, that's pushing it, but it sends a lot of good messages.)
She'll get the message that you are even more confident than her which must means that you must have a pretty damn good life when it comes to social interactions. Very powerful.

I hope i'll be able to do that someday.

I remember, when i was very young, my father once looked me in the eyes very intimidating, and i thought: never look into the eyes of someone again. Since that day, i've also problems with looking in the eyes of people. It's a feeling, not something rational, and i don't know how to overcome it, if it's possible anyway.

I thought differently back then. You generalised your parents' "opinions" about you to all other people. I always thought: THEY are wrong, THEY hate me, THEY don't want to change. Other people might not be like that. It's a very high statistical probability.

If your having conversations were your reading between the lines alot about what people are saying, and someone says how did you know that? Or come to that conclusion, then you'll know what I mean, it seems almost psychic but really it's just practice makes perfect. People give away a huge amount more than what they actually say.

Unfortunatley i have that ability too. Sometimes it's too much.

I don't have friends cause i don't look anybody in the eyes. Like everybody else, you underestimate problems people can have. It's not just a trick you can learn. If you are bad treated in the past like i am, your feelings are hurt and wounded and can't be healed that simple.

Or maybe you overestimate yours. It is not a trick you can learn. You cannot escape this state you are it in 1 day. It took me half a year of struggle to get out of my depression. Am i more sociable since then ? A little more, but not very much. As a proof, 2 years have passed since my depression and i still can't look ppl in the eyes. Things like this change veeeeeeeery slowly. I don't care it's slow; it's progress. What i learned from this thread is progress.

I look at peoples' noses.

Don't they notice ?

I'm not very good at looking people in the eye especially authority types, unless I'm being a jerk.

That's strange, i found out i can easly look authority figures in the eyes. Why ? Because they are corrupt bastards who did so many wrong things, they should look on the ground. The feeling that they are a lot worst than me makes it easier to look in their eyes. (but then again, i am talking about romanian authority figures/officials)

I've done it, and it was threatening for me! A whole year every day talking with the same group of people and the last days were as threatening for me as the first days. For me there don't exist a non-threatening social situation.

The first social group (my family) became a nightmare for me, now i don't think there will ever be a satisfying social situation for me.

Like i said before don't generalise. Could that social group be worse than your family ? No, it could not. Compare other people with your parents. Constantly think they are not as bad as you parents.

I have to look people in the eyes when I talk so I know if they are lying to me or not.

Trust me when i tell you this. Don't count on that. I use that to make people think i am lying. Sometimes just for manipulations, but nowadays just for laughs.

Again, comment on v's post will come ...

 

[GeneralZed]

It's quite different for me. Sometimes it seems like I look too much directly in the eyes of the people I'm talking, too, and it seems like they get unconfortable with that. Yet, I don't look directly in the eyes when its a person with more authority or I dont want to confront with.

 

[Heretic_Cata]

I just went to the mall. It was really fun. I looked a lot of girls in the eyes. Everytime they turned away first i couldn't whipe the grin of my face for about a minute. -> Can't wait to do it again sometimes.
Also, a girl thought i was going to steal her purse. (it was on the street) She saw me looking at her, turned her sight somewhere else and quickly put her purse on the other shoulder.

Kudos to Civrules and cegman.



Now onto varwnos' post.

 

[Heretic_Cata]

However being occupied with motifs about your parents is not the same as examining why there is a problem there in the first place. The motifs can be complicated of course, but that is not the same as a solution. For example person A. can be very involved in examining his view of the personality of his mother, but although this leads to myriads of thoughts about her personality, it never makes him feel any better. This is because a crucial part of his misery has been left unexamined, for example the reason why he feels that he should be so pre-occupied with her in the first place.

The thing is i am preoccupied less with them now then i was a while ago.
But still, i only thought a few times about this. Why was i/am i preocupied is something worth looking into ...


Now, i know you never said the following example is about me, and that any of the theories would apply to me, but i'd still like to analise it as if it was propsed to apply to me.

Here is a typical example of such a reason (by typical i mean that in the bibliography of psychology it is quite well known, at least as something which can happen). Person A. has a younger sibling. When person A. was small (eg 2 years old) he was very envious of the sibling and thought of harming it, so that he could become again the only child and so have all of the attention of his parents. When person A was that child he had still an entirely idealised way of thinking of his parents, and so they were seen as something "good" (whatever that meant for him). However person A is not let to destroy the sibling. Some solution is given to the idea that he could, but no solutionis given to what he felt.

Intresting example, i would've never thought of it ... I'll discuss about the first part of it.
Actually i am the younger sibling in the family. I have a bigger brother.
In him i see some of the same problems i have, which is another proof that our parents had some sort of bad influence on us.
As for the parents, they always treated us equally ... some might say disturbingly equal. Mom always uses the plural when arguing with either one of us. And i remember dad beating both of us up even when only one of us did smthing wrong.

Now fast forward 5,10,20 years. Person A. is an adolescent. He has forgotten all about his thoughts when he was an infant. Yet he has developed over the years an obsessive relation with his parents, at the same time trying to keep them as much away as possible, which he does by analysing how he views them. Still he cannot feel that he can break free from them, but he cannot explain why he feels that either. The fact that when he was 2 he mentioned to his mother that he would like to get rid of his sibling, and that his mother dismissed that idea in a hasty manner, without bothering to explain why she thought that it was insignificant (she might even have laughed, or found it funny, since she did not expect that anything could happen to the sibling anyway) was repressed, and now subconsciously person A. still sees his mother (along with all the other views he has of her) as a kind of protector of his sibling, and as someone a lot more ethical than him. This can expand to many other directions, but the bottom line is that his mother has become a type of symbol of "good" nomatter how much he consciously tries to dismiss that. The repressed view cannot be reached, and so his entire discource cannot get to it.

This is just one example of how one can fail to find what the underlying issue is, when he spends a lot of time an energy for thinking seemingly of the same issue (his parents)

But there's something wrong with this whole "repressed memories" theory. Personally, i don't believe in it (not entirely anyway) ... Why ? Because there is no guarantee that the memory existed in the first place. How exactly is a repressed memory "found" by the psychologist ? If you say hypnosis i will slap you.
Why i can't believe in this entirely is because it more of an assumption. The psychologist the cause of the problem is a repressed memory, and thinks of what memory it could be.
This is the reason why i believe in the theory somewhat:
Now, in your example, if the MOTHER would tell the psychologist what sibling A wanted to do at that age, then the theory would be (mostly) true.

But the discussion of whether the Represed memory theory is true/false should take place in another thread ...


I should discuss the example itself now.

About this part:
Still he cannot feel that he can break free from them, but he cannot explain why he feels that either.
I don't know if i can break free from them. I've never been away for that long to be able to tell if i can tho.
And this part:
his mother has become a type of symbol of "good" nomatter how much he consciously tries to dismiss that.
It is partially true. I don't think my parents are REALLY bad; i mean like the ones i see on the news. Some aspects of their "education" i see as good things. It's just that some are so .

This might be the reason why when they say something bad about me i feel really bad, but when anybody else says it, i don't feel anything. But still, i cannot believe this is the reason because the bad parts were there very early. I mean i was like 5-6 years old when i realised something was wrong, things weren't going somewhere "good".


But for the heck of it, let's assume this.
Let's assume a "deified" version of my parents is stuck in my head and everytime they prove it is wrong it hurts, and i can't do anything about it.

How could knowing this possibly help me ?

 

[Kyriakos]

How exactly is a repressed memory "found" by the psychologist ?

With hypnosis.

Well, that is not the only way I have never been hypnotised, but studies suggest that it can be done; afterall hypnosis used to have been the norm in the beginning of the use of freudian psychoanalysis, although later on Freud came to the view that hypnosis can create other problems, and so stopped using it.

One cannot give general guide-lines in such issues of how to go about examining your own self. This is because my way of thinking is very different from yours, and my own way of examining myself is based on my way of thinking. So it would be like a person asking how he could get from point A to point B, in a dark room, and then another person giving him a map of a trip from point A to point B in his own room, reasoning that two rooms cannot be that different to begin with (obviously false reasoning)

However you could think of what your immediate family members mean to you. You may have used them to examine things in life outside of the family as well, but obviously no one else would have done that, since they do not even know them, and definately they would have had a very different view about them.

 

[angeleyes]

[....]But there's something wrong with this whole "repressed memories" theory. Personally, i don't believe in it (not entirely anyway) ... Why ? Because there is no guarantee that the memory existed in the first place. How exactly is a repressed memory "found" by the psychologist ?

I have an older sister who began talking about how bad my father treated me when i was young, and first i didn't remember anything. But i was curious, started thinking about what she told me and than memories came back. In four month time almost everyday i remembered something again, eg. what i wrote in another post my father looking very intimidating in my eyes. I have two sisters and one brother who confirm my fathers behaviour towards me, if that was not the case, i probably would have started doubting my 'new' memories.

How could knowing this possibly help me ?

My benefit from my memories was that for the first time in my life i did understand my own behaviour, which gave me some selfesteem, but i couldn't really change my life for the better.

 

[Heretic_Cata]

With hypnosis.

Well, that is not the only way I have never been hypnotised, but studies suggest that it can be done; afterall hypnosis used to have been the norm in the beginning of the use of freudian psychoanalysis, although later on Freud came to the view that hypnosis can create other problems, and so stopped using it.

Smart man, that Freud dude.
I know hypnosis has some good effects; and i agree with using it. But not for "extracting" repressed memories.
Saying every bit of information that comes out of hypnosis is true and has a great hidden meaning is like saying all information from dreams is the same.
Some results for hypnosis are true, some dream interpretations are true and meaningfull. I doubt the dream i had with dwarves, Bozo_Erecuts and a friend of mine throwing stuff out the window of an office has some great meaning showing i like throwing stuff away.

One cannot give general guide-lines in such issues of how to go about examining your own self. This is because my way of thinking is very different from yours, and my own way of examining myself is based on my way of thinking. So it would be like a person asking how he could get from point A to point B, in a dark room, and then another person giving him a map of a trip from point A to point B in his own room, reasoning that two rooms cannot be that different to begin with (obviously false reasoning)

True.

However you could think of what your immediate family members mean to you. You may have used them to examine things in life outside of the family as well, but obviously no one else would have done that, since they do not even know them, and definately they would have had a very different view about them.

Smthing intresting occured to me ... When i think of people and my parents, i always split those far away from eachother. It's like they are parts of 2 different worlds which cannot be compared.
All other people's views on my parents are usually the same and quite different from mine/(other in my age group in the family) . But they act differently toward us then toward other people. They always view children (not only their own) as obedient little commies. By commies i mean "never question the order, never have an opinion over important things".

I have an older sister who began talking about how bad my father treated me when i was young, and first i didn't remember anything. But i was curious, started thinking about what she told me and than memories came back. In four month time almost everyday i remembered something again, eg. what i wrote in another post my father looking very intimidating in my eyes. I have two sisters and one brother who confirm my fathers behaviour towards me, if that was not the case, i probably would have started doubting my 'new' memories.

That is a good way of getting back memories.

But it is also not very healthy to dwell on memories too much ... at least IMHO.

My benefit from my memories was that for the first time in my life i did understand my own behaviour, which gave me some selfesteem, but i couldn't really change my life for the better.

Well, yes, it is better knowing the reason to your own behavior. Yes, i felt good too when i was able to explain most of my personality "traits" through my parents' past actions.
But i am not in favor of diggin deeper constantly for more explanations.

 

[Kyriakos]

The thing is that nothing can be analysed to completion. Easier to see from a mathematical perspective (afterall math are just another human creation, so they follow the same principles):
The point X,Y in a grid can seem to be pretty much named as point X,Y. You can press the edge of a pencil on a notebook and make a small dot which would be that point, so it would seem defined, for the purposes of the simple math problem.
However this is just one definition of it, using a grid. You can say that point A is the X,Y in the grid, but this is only a sufficient explanation of it if one agrees that the grid is the end of the set that includes the object A.
Leikewise in everyday life it is very common for people to come up with simple explanations of anything, which is why the word "is" is used so much (it leads to a definition, with the definition being an important part of a mental movement, since it allows for the redirection of interest to something else). However even the seemingly most simple of thoughts can be further analysed, like every object can be broken up to always more basic particles, smaller and smaller than those currently examined. So in ancient Greece the smallest particle had been named as the "atom" (by Democritus, although is definition of the atom was theoretical, and obviously not experimental like the one given in the 20th century) but aeons later we have molecules and particles, and there is no reason at all to assume that there are no smaller divisions of them.

Ussually one gets to organise the way he is thinking by generally crude means, such as the 'emotions' of what is interesting and what is not. It is crucial in thought to be able to sense a distinction between what you find interesting and what you do not, else you would not have been able to follow any progression anywhere, since you would have had to constantly examine different directions, since all would seem to be equally interesting or not interesting and thus there would have been no way to differentiate between what should be chosen so as to be thought of. However the emotion of what is interesting is not simple itself either, since one would have to assume that it is based in many parameters that ussually are not conscious, and they very easily could have to do also with what in psychological terms is called "a defense mechanism".
All people use defense mechanisms, all of the time. Sometimes they are more obvious (eg a person who has lost one of his hands can suffer from shock and be in denial that this has happened, for a short time) but ussually they are a lot less obvious, since they just get to be a part of a number of other constructed semi-complex notions, such as aesthetics, interest, character, will etc.
However a dream always has an importance, nomatter that it may seem to be trivial. I remember a passage in Dostoevsky's "the idiot" where someone is angry that her daughter dreams of sheep all of the time, since she is of the view that only morons would dream of something like sheep. However obviously the sheep in the dream have a specific importance for their dreamer, and are linked to the dreamer's own specific view of what they symbolise in the world, along with the dreamer's consciousness of the world (again entirely personal).
So on the surface the dream about the forum member and the things being thrown out may seem to be 'boring', but then again this is a vital part of your dream as well. You use the defence of dismissing something generally as "boring", so that the dream can be allowed to present it to you, with the knowledge that it would not break through to you in any way which would create loss of stability, since there already is the defence of it being presented in a dissmisive way

(btw i cannot of course analyse your dream since i do not know you, and i would only be forming my own approximation of it. But my view is that it would be usefull for you to try to analyse it yourself, perhaps reflecting on my own points as well)

 

[Heretic_Cata]

The thing is that nothing can be analysed to completion. Easier to see from a mathematical perspective (afterall math are just another human creation, so they follow the same principles):
The point X,Y in a grid can seem to be pretty much named as point X,Y. You can press the edge of a pencil on a notebook and make a small dot which would be that point, so it would seem defined, for the purposes of the simple math problem.
However this is just one definition of it, using a grid. You can say that point A is the X,Y in the grid, but this is only a sufficient explanation of it if one agrees that the grid is the end of the set that includes the object A.

Yea, out math teachers constantly mock us for being narrow minded.
How many elements does this set have A={a,b,c} ?

Go on, answer.

Leikewise in everyday life it is very common for people to come up with simple explanations of anything, which is why the word "is" is used so much (it leads to a definition, with the definition being an important part of a mental movement, since it allows for the redirection of interest to something else). However even the seemingly most simple of thoughts can be further analysed, like every object can be broken up to always more basic particles, smaller and smaller than those currently examined. So in ancient Greece the smallest particle had been named as the "atom" (by Democritus, although is definition of the atom was theoretical, and obviously not experimental like the one given in the 20th century) but aeons later we have molecules and particles, and there is no reason at all to assume that there are no smaller divisions of them.

It's kinda annoying when you think about it. When it comes to thoughts&emotions you can't really get to smthing like an atom. We might as well stop breaking things down at some point.
But stoping is a bit harder than it seems ...

Ussually one gets to organise the way he is thinking by generally crude means, such as the 'emotions' of what is interesting and what is not. It is crucial in thought to be able to sense a distinction between what you find interesting and what you do not, else you would not have been able to follow any progression anywhere, since you would have had to constantly examine different directions, since all would seem to be equally interesting or not interesting and thus there would have been no way to differentiate between what should be chosen so as to be thought of. However the emotion of what is interesting is not simple itself either, since one would have to assume that it is based in many parameters that ussually are not conscious, and they very easily could have to do also with what in psychological terms is called "a defense mechanism".
All people use defense mechanisms, all of the time. Sometimes they are more obvious (eg a person who has lost one of his hands can suffer from shock and be in denial that this has happened, for a short time) but ussually they are a lot less obvious, since they just get to be a part of a number of other constructed semi-complex notions, such as aesthetics, interest, character, will etc.

Here's an intresting thing. When i was depressed i could not tell if i was intrested in smthing or not. When i saw a movie i didn't know if i liked it or not; i just analised it from many points of view and tell people: "You would like this movie." "You are not going to like some parts of this movie."
Even when i got out of a depression i had this problem.

They key is to say: "It SUCKS." or "It's cool." without thinking about what you are saying. When someone asks you about the movie just say one of those. (unless you are sure you liked/disliked the movie) That way, your mind will be set on either the crappy sides of the movie or the good sides. And your mind will find arguments on it's own to support your forced opinion.

However a dream always has an importance, nomatter that it may seem to be trivial. I remember a passage in Dostoevsky's "the idiot" where someone is angry that her daughter dreams of sheep all of the time, since she is of the view that only morons would dream of something like sheep. However obviously the sheep in the dream have a specific importance for their dreamer, and are linked to the dreamer's own specific view of what they symbolise in the world, along with the dreamer's consciousness of the world (again entirely personal).
So on the surface the dream about the forum member and the things being thrown out may seem to be 'boring', but then again this is a vital part of your dream as well. You use the defence of dismissing something generally as "boring", so that the dream can be allowed to present it to you, with the knowledge that it would not break through to you in any way which would create loss of stability, since there already is the defence of it being presented in a dissmisive way

Ah, i love dream interpretation and the meaning of dreams.
Interpretation is the key, when you are looking for a potentially repressed bad memory you see what you want to see.
For example i can find a repressed memory in that daughter's dream about sheep:
"When she was 2 years old, she was forced to watch her father engage in sexual activities with sheep in a satanic ritual." Which would also explain why her mother wanted her to think it was stupid to dream sheep, therefore making her ignore her dreams.
But if the girl is a happy person then i will interpret the presence of sheep as a good thing.
"When she was 2 years old, she found a stray sheep wondering to the house. It was her first "pet", but she no longer remembers it because we couldn't keep her and gave her to the grandparents."

(btw i cannot of course analyse your dream since i do not know you, and i would only be forming my own approximation of it. But my view is that it would be usefull for you to try to analyse it yourself, perhaps reflecting on my own points as well)

I know it's not possible to analise someone's dreams without knowing them. But it is fun anyway. I like trying to interpret dreams, especially those of other people.


God i wish i could remember dreams better, i had a nice dream last night. Aside from seeing a lot of people to who i haven't seen in 10 years, i was in love with someone and i don't remember who.

 

[Sidhe]

Yea, out math teachers constantly mock us for being narrow minded.
How many elements does this set have A={a,b,c} ?

Four

It's kinda annoying when you think about it. When it comes to thoughts&emotions you can't really get to smthing like an atom. We might as well stop breaking things down at some point.
But stoping is a bit harder than it seems ...

Psychology is more an art than a science, to break down psychology into atom like structures would require something more than we currently know.

Here's an intresting thing. When i was depressed i could not tell if i was intrested in smthing or not. When i saw a movie i didn't know if i liked it or not; i just analised it from many points of view and tell people: "You would like this movie." "You are not going to like some parts of this movie."
Even when i got out of a depression i had this problem.

Being depressed is akin to insanity, and being in a cyclical depression cycle will skew your vision of reality. Best not to take dpression or its insights as indicative of anything rational.

They key is to say: "It SUCKS." or "It's cool." without thinking about what you are saying. When someone asks you about the movie just say one of those. (unless you are sure you liked/disliked the movie) That way, your mind will be set on either the crappy sides of the movie or the good sides. And your mind will find arguments on it's own to support your forced opinion.

Key is to make your own decisions.

Ah, i love dream interpretation and the meaning of dreams.
Interpretation is the key, when you are looking for a potentially repressed bad memory you see what you want to see.
For example i can find a repressed memory in that daughter's dream about sheep:
"When she was 2 years old, she was forced to watch her father engage in sexual activities with sheep in a satanic ritual." Which would also explain why her mother wanted her to think it was stupid to dream sheep, therefore making her ignore her dreams.
But if the girl is a happy person then i will interpret the presence of sheep as a good thing.
"When she was 2 years old, she found a stray sheep wondering to the house. It was her first "pet", but she no longer remembers it because we couldn't keep her and gave her to the grandparents."

I know it's not possible to analise someone's dreams without knowing them. But it is fun anyway. I like trying to interpret dreams, especially those of other people.

Dream interpritation is a means to an end in psychology, much like archetype labling of personality in Yungist psychology, you make a claim that you think it means A, and they tell you a little bit more about what they think it means, it's just a crowbar to open up the psyche of a person.

God i wish i could remember dreams better, i had a nice dream last night. Aside from seeing a lot of people to who i haven't seen in 10 years, i was in love with someone and i don't remember who.

To sleep perchance to dream, for in that sleep what dreams may come

I know your comments weren't directed at me, I just thought I'd add my two cents.

 

[Mr. Dictator]

i look into a few peoples eyes.

most of the time i look at the general face area.

 

[Psyringe]

I can "outstare" most people if I wnt to, but it's a silly game that I don't play very often.

I rarely look people in the eyes because I think it's impolite to stare at them. Usually I look at their lips, or general face area.

 

[scipian]

I don't really know how to help. I tend to let my eyes wander but mostly because I get bored. When I choose to, though, I can easily keep eye contact and usually do that when meeting acquaintances or when I actually have an interesting conversation.

An addition. I always try to look into the eyes of authority figures when they say something important. Kind of a respect thing, I guess. I always found it interesting how in my soccer team I was the only one to look at the coach when we were being lectured even though I;m the timid one. Oh well...

 

[angeleyes]

[....] I always found it interesting how in my soccer team I was the only one to look at the coach when we were being lectured even though I;m the timid one. Oh well...

You were learnt to do this (looking the authority in the eyes when they say something important), that's the cause why you are the timid one, i presume ...

 

[Bast]

I don't look at people in the eye when I'm out but only at night or travelling alone becaue there are PSYCHOS out there.

If I'm in a busy shopping centre, hell yeah especially cute guys.

 

[Heretic_Cata]

Four

Like the teachers say:
"Maybe in Euclidean Geometry.
But that's just one small, insignificant, puny part of geometry.
All your minds have been narrowed down by thinking in the Euclidean math for so many years."

At which point all of us are:
"oOooOOo, Aaaahh, so is the course over yet ?"

Being depressed is akin to insanity, and being in a cyclical depression cycle will skew your vision of reality. Best not to take dpression or its insights as indicative of anything rational.

But it's good when you've passed through the depresion. And you say to yourself: "Just look at how i was thinking then. I overcame that "illness". I changed."

Key is to make your own decisions.

Yes, but that is the way from Depression thinking to Normal thinking.

Eventually after, a while, finding arguements of how smthing is cool or uncool became very easy and i was able to think about the arguments before forcing myself to have an opinion. This way, my opinion was only a matter of weighing the cool side with the uncool side and see which suits me.
And so, my opinions were born.

Dream interpritation is a means to an end in psychology, much like archetype labling of personality in Yungist psychology, you make a claim that you think it means A, and they tell you a little bit more about what they think it means, it's just a crowbar to open up the psyche of a person.

To sleep perchance to dream, for in that sleep what dreams may come

Nice quote. Who said that ?

I know your comments weren't directed at me, I just thought I'd add my two cents.

Don't worry about it. It wasn't just a 1 on 1 conversation. It's just that few people read long posts and it seemed like it was 1 on 1. More opinions are always welcome.