Eyes

Hey, this gives me an idea. Maybe i should try to focus on the eye like it is an organ. View it as a simple object, unrelated to the person.
Sclera, cornea, choroid, crystalin, retina. I gotta focus on those. I dunno if i'll be able to do that while talking, but hey, what's the worst that could happen. :lol:
Actually, long vacant stares from people make me feel a little uneasy, and I think the same goes for a long vacant stare from me. I think this is why many people talk with thier hands, to avoid having thier eyes penetrated when they're talking. I've found it best to show a little emotion in your eyes when looking at someone. When they're talking you don't have to look in thier eyes the whole time. Look at the way the talk and the way they move thier mouth. Take a quick look and see what they're wearing. Be aware of what's around you while listening to them.
 
I happen to have given those issues a lot of thinking as well, Heretic Cata, and my conclusions generally- some of them at least- are that:

-While in the earlier years (eg elementary school, early highschool) most children were generally behaving instinctively, and thus were quite obvious to "understand" (more later on what this supposed understanding is) or they at any rate could not really pretend to be feeling something else, this changes later on since most people move away from the pillars of stability that their parents ussually mean for them at those very early ages. However to some children there is no such relatively calm relation with their parents, and so they never really form any such calmness either, and therefore from a very early age have developmed ways to pretend and decieve, since it was seen as a very real need (so that their parents could not understand how they felt.

-In reality no one can understand exactly how you feel. However most people have no understanding of the fact that their personal state of consciousness is already unique, since it lies on the surface of the rest of their mental world, which inevitably would be unique (and equally unexamined). This often leads to the confusion that the other person would be reading one's emotions, since to the individual thinking of them they could seem as basic. They could be basic in many ways, but they still would have been the sum of a vast number of brain cell connections, and obviously the other person could only create an approximation of those, again mostly instinctively, while thinking of how the first person was thinking. Obviously it is not that hard to form an estimate, but the estimate itself is not the same as the actual phenomenon of the other person's thought. Here is a simple example of this, so that it can become clearer:
In an elementary class a teacher asks a question. Two children raise their hands to reply. The teacher chooses child X, because the other child, child Y, had already replied to many questions, whereas X had not. Child Y puts its hand down as the teacher voices his choice of who he will choose to reply to him, but now child Y is careful to examine how child X would reply. To child Y child X is not a good student, and so he expects a less accurate, developed reply than the one he would have given. And really, child X's reply seems to be basic, simpler than it should have been, with emphasis on not all of the points it should have had, and overall it makes child Y feel contempt.
What has happened is that child Y had been following its own approximated sense of what the reply by child X had been. The use of simpler, less analytical sentences by child X, was felt as something negative by child Y, but at the same time it is true that obviously child X did not feel any such negativity since to it the thoughts it was presenting were felt in a very different way. Child Y did not see how the thoughts were being developed, but saw an automatic comparisson between them and what its own thoughts were, and drew conclusions from that comparisson, infulenced also by its overall view of child X. Had child Y tried to immitate child X it would have had given a similar reply, but it would still have not have made the same thought pattern, since that would be impossible. This is a simple example to show that you cannot understand how another person really thinks, but can only make your own approximation of it, and in that you are being unfluenced by a nearly endless multitude of parameters, the obvious majority of which are not conscious ;)

-Everyone is living in their own organised mentality. The particularities of that organisation are, again, not all conscious. They can be in part conscious, which is what happens with introverted people. Apart from simply introverted people there are people who are entirely, or nearly entirely introverted, and the term for that is schizoid personalities (which is mine as well ;) ). The term schizoid is used due to the greek world schizo (cut) so as to refer to the organisation consciously in many levels, which appear to be clearly defined and differing from each other. Also it can refer, at other times, to a gap between being emotional about a thought, and thinking the actual thought (control over emotions). It is another type of personality and it is not seen as a disorder anymore, although obviously it can lead to severe isolation.

-What you said about knowing 'how it started' (which you had said again in the past, in a similar thread you had started) does seem interesting, but then again had you really known how it started should not you have been able to solve it? At that thread i had suggested that you kept notes about your relation to your parents, and you had replied that each time you tried to do that you could not focus or examine your thoughts in depth, but this -despite the complexity which could seem charming to someone non-schizoid) in reality is a problem, since if you cannot even start examining something due to whatever reason, that means that you will keep being unable to start examining.
All people examine their relation with their parents at some point, ussually while they are trying to end adolescence. While obviously such examinations are done in very different degrees, that is fine since they are very different people, and no one is in need of the same analysis, nor does everyone like thinking of such issues. However not being able to think them through will not help you, and symptoms such as being interested in peripheral problems such as the obviously symptomatic issue in relation to the eyes, only depict the fact that there is a deeper issue which is not being dealt with.

I think that i will end this post here, since probably it became rather big already. :)
 
I have no problem looking into people's eyes.

People say I have an impozing gaze.
 
There is a game in Sweden called "arga leken" (the angry game). Basically two people stare into each others eyes and whoever diverts his/her eyes or start to laugh loses.
Might be a bit childish but at least you get to stare into peoples eyes. :)
Hey, sounds like fun. :) That could be something i'd be able to win. I could just imagine myself in a white room. :D
@cata-
sure, why not just come out with it and say it?
That would be kinda wierd. :)
Actually, long vacant stares from people make me feel a little uneasy, and I think the same goes for a long vacant stare from me. I think this is why many people talk with thier hands, to avoid having thier eyes penetrated when they're talking. I've found it best to show a little emotion in your eyes when looking at someone. When they're talking you don't have to look in thier eyes the whole time. Look at the way the talk and the way they move thier mouth. Take a quick look and see what they're wearing. Be aware of what's around you while listening to them.
First i'll have to try to hold my look for more than a few seconds ...
Here's an exercise that will help. Go to the mall or any social place and have a relaxed facial look (a slight smile). Then look at people's eyes until they look away (do not look away until they do first). Now if you have a serious face, you'll scare them away, that's why it's important to be relaxed.
Untill they look away ? Wow - now that i think about it, i don't think i ever did that, i always looked away.
I'll try it sometime. :)
Thank you :worship:
So if you are a guy, find a girl that you are interested in and look her in the eyes until she either smiles or looks away.
What I've experienced is that most of the time people will look to the side first. Some of the time they will look down (which means they possibly see you as intimidating or they just have low self-esteem). And some of the time they will smile at you.
That's strange, i have a relatively low self-esteem, and i always look either to the side&up a bit, or beyond (another person behind her/him); i look down when i am thinking. :crazyeye:

(comment on varwnos' post will follow ... )
 
Take up Kendo, and you'll always have to look your opponent in the eyes :P
 
Untill they look away ? Wow - now that i think about it, i don't think i ever did that, i always looked away.
I'll try it sometime. :)
Thank you :worship:

That is actually harder than you think... but once you can do that you get a huge self-esteem boost. :)

Practice... and never get pissed off if you look away first. Just never give up at doing it...

The other day I tried this and from a long distance I looked at a girl in the eyes for a while. She looked back and kept looking. A few seconds later she squinted and moved her head foreword while still looking.

And what did I do? I looked away cuz I've no idea what she would do. That was a huge mistake. JUST KEEP LOOKING until she looks away. This is HEIUUUGE. And says all the right things. And no, it does not come off as stalkerish. What comes off as stalkerish is looking at her, looking away, looking at her, looking away, looking at her, looking away, etc, etc.

Now going to the mall is fun cuz it's great practice. :D

That's strange, i have a relatively low self-esteem, and i always look either to the side&up a bit, or beyond (another person behind her/him); i look down when i am thinking. :crazyeye:

(comment on varwnos' post will follow ... )

But that also depends on the person looking at you. If you aren't found of them (and summing up a person takes microseconds), then you'll look the other way instead of down.


OK - EDIT:

What surprises me is that most girls are totally NOT afraid to keep looking at guys in the eye. These, of course, are mostly attractive girls. And they WILL keep looking.

Take a guess why that is. Go ahead, I'll wait. :)




That's because they are so used to intimidate other guys that they have NOTHING to fear from anybody. They are used to being the dominant ones. And by you looking even longer than them, it basically tells your whole life's story of your dominance. (Okay, that's pushing it, but it sends a lot of good messages.)
She'll get the message that you are even more confident than her which must means that you must have a pretty damn good life when it comes to social interactions. Very powerful.
 
I remember, when i was very young, my father once looked me in the eyes very intimidating, and i thought: never look into the eyes of someone again. Since that day, i've also problems with looking in the eyes of people. It's a feeling, not something rational, and i don't know how to overcome it, if it's possible anyway.
 
I remember, when i was very young, my father once looked me in the eyes very intimidating, and i thought: never look into the eyes of someone again. Since that day, i've also problems with looking in the eyes of people. It's a feeling, not something rational, and i don't know how to overcome it, if it's possible anyway.

It is possible. :)
Go out with your friends (because friends provide security). That way you'll feel better with what you are about to do. Even tell them, "guys, we're going to play a little game here. Look into the eyes of a girl of your choice until she looks away." Make your friends do that and that will make you feel better about doing it. Once you have discovered that other people are more intimidated by you than you are of them, you'll gain the experience to come off as confident person who isn't afraid to look at people's eyes.

However, in a conversation, you DO have to break eye contact now and then for a short time, otherwise people will freak out a little. This eye contact thing gets pretty specific...
 
Actually, long vacant stares from people make me feel a little uneasy, and I think the same goes for a long vacant stare from me. I think this is why many people talk with thier hands, to avoid having thier eyes penetrated when they're talking. I've found it best to show a little emotion in your eyes when looking at someone. When they're talking you don't have to look in thier eyes the whole time. Look at the way the talk and the way they move thier mouth. Take a quick look and see what they're wearing. Be aware of what's around you while listening to them.

Long stares will make anyone feel uneasy, it's a social taboo, but the right length of stare will carry a message that is more socially acceptable.

I have always found it hard to maintain eye contact because I'm a pretty empathic sort of person and read alot about people in their eyes and because it makes me uncomfortable, I actually find my intuition to be true most of the time, I'm very much intuitive about other peoples meaning from body language though, so I find it best to look at the whole package.

I actually try to limit the input I get from it so I don't make too many judgements from this source. It's actually quite unconcious but I can read people pretty well, usually this is interpreted as a feminine skill, but I have male friends who also have this "uncanny" ability. It's not uncanny it just comes from practice in social situations, and that is key. Women generally seem to have this ability inbuilt but like anything else it's a skill.

If your having conversations were your reading between the lines alot about what people are saying, and someone says how did you know that? Or come to that conclusion, then you'll know what I mean, it seems almost psychic but really it's just practice makes perfect. People give away a huge amount more than what they actually say.
 
It is possible. :)
Go out with your friends (because friends provide security). That way you'll feel better with what you are about to do. Even tell them, "guys, we're going to play a little game here. Look into the eyes of a girl of your choice until she looks away." Make your friends do that and that will make you feel better about doing it. Once you have discovered that other people are more intimidated by you than you are of them, you'll gain the experience to come off as confident person who isn't afraid to look at people's eyes.

However, in a conversation, you DO have to break eye contact now and then for a short time, otherwise people will freak out a little. This eye contact thing gets pretty specific...

I don't have friends cause i don't look anybody in the eyes. Like everybody else, you underestimate problems people can have. It's not just a trick you can learn. If you are bad treated in the past like i am, your feelings are hurt and wounded and can't be healed that simple.
 
I don't have friends cause i don't look anybody in the eyes. Like everybody else, you underestimate problems people can have. It's not just a trick you can learn. If you are bad treated in the past like i am, your feelings are hurt and wounded and can't be healed that simple.

Sounds like you have alot of bagage, ever though about therapy, I know it's lovey dovey talk, but it might help to get alot of your issues off your chest with an impartial medium, maybe you can then move on. Maybe then give group therapy a try. That'll put you in a non threatening social situation and help you come to terms with your issues. Sounds like you have a monkey on your back.
 
I'm not very good at looking people in the eye especially authority types, unless I'm being a jerk.
 
-While in the earlier years (eg elementary school, early highschool) most children were generally behaving instinctively, and thus were quite obvious to "understand" (more later on what this supposed understanding is) or they at any rate could not really pretend to be feeling something else, this changes later on since most people move away from the pillars of stability that their parents ussually mean for them at those very early ages. However to some children there is no such relatively calm relation with their parents, and so they never really form any such calmness either, and therefore from a very early age have developmed ways to pretend and decieve, since it was seen as a very real need (so that their parents could not understand how they felt.
Sounds like my parents.
Yup, i know lots of ways to decieve and pretend - i've been doing it a lot for a long time. Not very much recently tho.
-In reality no one can understand exactly how you feel. However most people have no understanding of the fact that their personal state of consciousness is already unique, since it lies on the surface of the rest of their mental world, which inevitably would be unique (and equally unexamined). This often leads to the confusion that the other person would be reading one's emotions, since to the individual thinking of them they could seem as basic. They could be basic in many ways, but they still would have been the sum of a vast number of brain cell connections, and obviously the other person could only create an approximation of those, again mostly instinctively, while thinking of how the first person was thinking. Obviously it is not that hard to form an estimate, but the estimate itself is not the same as the actual phenomenon of the other person's thought. Here is a simple example of this, so that it can become clearer:
In an elementary class a teacher asks a question. Two children raise their hands to reply. The teacher chooses child X, because the other child, child Y, had already replied to many questions, whereas X had not. Child Y puts its hand down as the teacher voices his choice of who he will choose to reply to him, but now child Y is careful to examine how child X would reply. To child Y child X is not a good student, and so he expects a less accurate, developed reply than the one he would have given. And really, child X's reply seems to be basic, simpler than it should have been, with emphasis on not all of the points it should have had, and overall it makes child Y feel contempt.
What has happened is that child Y had been following its own approximated sense of what the reply by child X had been. The use of simpler, less analytical sentences by child X, was felt as something negative by child Y, but at the same time it is true that obviously child X did not feel any such negativity since to it the thoughts it was presenting were felt in a very different way. Child Y did not see how the thoughts were being developed, but saw an automatic comparisson between them and what its own thoughts were, and drew conclusions from that comparisson, infulenced also by its overall view of child X. Had child Y tried to immitate child X it would have had given a similar reply, but it would still have not have made the same thought pattern, since that would be impossible. This is a simple example to show that you cannot understand how another person really thinks, but can only make your own approximation of it, and in that you are being unfluenced by a nearly endless multitude of parameters, the obvious majority of which are not conscious ;)
Wow - intresting. However, this is a "double-edged blade". It can make you think a good person has bad intentions about you. (which is not good) And at the same time make you think a bad person wants to do you a good thing. (which is bad)
But, as you said complicated things like emotions can't be known by just looking at a person's face/eyes. It's sorta like this:

A person is showing an emotion which can be read through the expression on his/her face. You have to:
- identify emotion
- validate emotion (is it true or just a mask)

If the identifying part is relatively easy the validation part is very complex as you said.

But still, it is said the bigest honesy is among strangers; like those people in that test. I can identify the emotion, but i cannot validate it since i don't know anything about them; therefor i assume they are honest untill proven otherwise. Like someone said in the thread, they could just have been actors or smthing ...
-Everyone is living in their own organised mentality. The particularities of that organisation are, again, not all conscious. They can be in part conscious, which is what happens with introverted people. Apart from simply introverted people there are people who are entirely, or nearly entirely introverted, and the term for that is schizoid personalities (which is mine as well ;) ). The term schizoid is used due to the greek world schizo (cut) so as to refer to the organisation consciously in many levels, which appear to be clearly defined and differing from each other. Also it can refer, at other times, to a gap between being emotional about a thought, and thinking the actual thought (control over emotions). It is another type of personality and it is not seen as a disorder anymore, although obviously it can lead to severe isolation.
Severely introverted - that's me. (not entirely)
I have a little too much emotional control. None of the people whom i talk to nowadays ever saw me angry.
And another thing, related to horror movies. This is also the reason why i don't "jump on my seat" when smthing suddenly happens and the other ppl around me react "normaly". I think of those moments, i did get scared (or at least surprisied), but my body didn't react like the others.
Smthing happened to me a few months ago. I was on the street with some friends going somewhere; when we passed by a parked car a dog sticks his head out of a window and starts barking loudly. I was the closest to the window. It was only a few centimeters from him, i felt his breath. I don't think it wanted to bite me tho. Anyway, i didn't even look turned to see him. I just walked another 1-2 steps and then turned around. Of course my friends backed off a bit, moving to the left, away from the car, not forward like i did.

It's not like i never get scared; I do, sometimes on (stupid) occasions where other people don't. :lol:
-What you said about knowing 'how it started' (which you had said again in the past, in a similar thread you had started) does seem interesting, but then again had you really known how it started should not you have been able to solve it? At that thread i had suggested that you kept notes about your relation to your parents, and you had replied that each time you tried to do that you could not focus or examine your thoughts in depth, but this -despite the complexity which could seem charming to someone non-schizoid) in reality is a problem, since if you cannot even start examining something due to whatever reason, that means that you will keep being unable to start examining.
All people examine their relation with their parents at some point, ussually while they are trying to end adolescence. While obviously such examinations are done in very different degrees, that is fine since they are very different people, and no one is in need of the same analysis, nor does everyone like thinking of such issues. However not being able to think them through will not help you, and symptoms such as being interested in peripheral problems such as the obviously symptomatic issue in relation to the eyes, only depict the fact that there is a deeper issue which is not being dealt with.
There are 2 main issues about what i said in the other thread.
1. Emphasis on writing down. Why i can't write down these/most thoughts about anyone is because:
a) paranoia - they might discover it.
b) i have this thing, if i write something down; it will be in my head more. I don't want my parents' opinion about me hanging in my head more than it already is.
2. When i analise my relation to my parents in my head i always wind down the same road. The same thoughts that plagued me for years. I kept thinking of those thoughts everyday in my 2 year depression.
I am able to analise my relation with my parents. It's just that it's not really worth it. It's always the same thing, they didn't change one bit ... same masks, same lack of masks.

I am sure that my relation with my parents has always been the cause of my anti-social tendencies, but i don't see how analising them will help.

EDIT: Christ - Crosspost with almost a dozen posts. :crazyeye: I'll read them tomorrow morning.
 
[....] Maybe then give group therapy a try. That'll put you in a non threatening social situation and help you come to terms with your issues. Sounds like you have a monkey on your back.

:lol: I've done it, and it was threatening for me! A whole year every day talking with the same group of people and the last days were as threatening for me as the first days. For me there don't exist a non-threatening social situation.

The first social group (my family) became a nightmare for me, now i don't think there will ever be a satisfying social situation for me.
 
Ussually examination leads to further notice of complication, since nothing can be examined to its absolute depth since probably there exists no such depth which is also why we can think in the first place (my view is that a person would need to have a near infinitely greater ability to think, so that he would be able to consciously even make the most basic of thoughts).

However being occupied with motifs about your parents is not the same as examining why there is a problem there in the first place. The motifs can be complicated of course, but that is not the same as a solution. For example person A. can be very involved in examining his view of the personality of his mother, but although this leads to myriads of thoughts about her personality, it never makes him feel any better. This is because a crucial part of his misery has been left unexamined, for example the reason why he feels that he should be so pre-occupied with her in the first place.

Here is a typical example of such a reason (by typical i mean that in the bibliography of psychology it is quite well known, at least as something which can happen). Person A. has a younger sibling. When person A. was small (eg 2 years old) he was very envious of the sibling and thought of harming it, so that he could become again the only child and so have all of the attention of his parents. When person A was that child he had still an entirely idealised way of thinking of his parents, and so they were seen as something "good" (whatever that meant for him). However person A is not let to destroy the sibling. Some solution is given to the idea that he could, but no solutionis given to what he felt.
Now fast forward 5,10,20 years. Person A. is an adolescent. He has forgotten all about his thoughts when he was an infant. Yet he has developed over the years an obsessive relation with his parents, at the same time trying to keep them as much away as possible, which he does by analysing how he views them. Still he cannot feel that he can break free from them, but he cannot explain why he feels that either. The fact that when he was 2 he mentioned to his mother that he would like to get rid of his sibling, and that his mother dismissed that idea in a hasty manner, without bothering to explain why she thought that it was insignificant (she might even have laughed, or found it funny, since she did not expect that anything could happen to the sibling anyway) was repressed, and now subconsciously person A. still sees his mother (along with all the other views he has of her) as a kind of protector of his sibling, and as someone a lot more ethical than him. This can expand to many other directions, but the bottom line is that his mother has become a type of symbol of "good" nomatter how much he consciously tries to dismiss that. The repressed view cannot be reached, and so his entire discource cannot get to it.

This is just one example of how one can fail to find what the underlying issue is, when he spends a lot of time an energy for thinking seemingly of the same issue (his parents) :)
 
I have to look people in the eyes when I talk so I know if they are lying to me or not.
 
I have to look people in the eyes when I talk so I know if they are lying to me or not.

A person can even convince himself that he is telling the truth, while he is still lying.
This can lead to what is called "pathological lying" which basically is the deterioration of the ability to make a distinction of whether you are lying or telling the truth. However certain personality types can carry on lying and notice that they are lying, but on some level view it as a reality (good actors have this ability as well) :)
 
Asperger i am not sure if aspergers syndrom in you wasn't caused by something your parents did. Oops well thank goodness this is the last post so no one will read it.

Civrules hit what I was trying to say right on the head and explained why it works. Listen to him. I use to have issues with some of this stuff and it helped to look into girls eyes at school but I am still working on it.
 
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