Failure Gold

[rah]

Something doesn't have to be game-breaking to be an exploit.
And talking about opportunity costs and other things is just blowing smoke. If other ways were better than most people wouldn't be using this. IT all just sounds like justification.

Since you already think it wasn't intentional, you shouldn't need much additional convincing.

And yeah, I've never quite figured out exactly how to do that resource trading thing either so don't feel bad. MAYBE someone will come along and it explain it more completely for those of us that are a bit slower.

 

[Windsor]

I stated in the Balance issues in Civ4-thread that "Wealth is too easily acquired through building wealth, failgold and selling techs. MGB-buildings, religions and Merchants should account for more of wealth gained." So I'm obviously not a fan of how failgold works.

I don't care if developers intended failgold to be a major source of gold income or not. That question assumes that developers have a much greater understanding of the game than whats actually the case.

I don't label it as exploit. Without a resource-site like CFC its not that easy to think of the idea and even when you know the mechanics behind, maximizing it still takes some skill. So there is some gameplay there. So for me it goes in the category of "not a good mechanic, but not so broken it qualifies as exploit to use".

 

[NihilZero]

Something doesn't have to be game-breaking to be an exploit.
And talking about opportunity costs and other things is just blowing smoke. If other ways were better than most people wouldn't be using this. IT all just sounds like justification.

No, not really. The point I was trying to make is that a lot of the time building national wonders for fail gold is inferior to doing something else more immediate. In most games, if you find you have enough time to fully utilise the potential wealth from, say, Moai, then you clearly have too much time on your hands and should probably have just gone and won the game faster instead!

Fail gold is just a benefit of marble and stone (or Ivory, gold or copper occasionally) just like other resources give you benefits such as happiness or being able to build units.

Since you already think it wasn't intentional, you shouldn't need much additional convincing.

I don't think there is any mechanic in the game which can't be taken advantage of. The difference between civ and other games is that civ provides a difficulty level that is so hard that you can't possibly feel guilty about knowing all the tricks in the game. In other games maybe things like fail gold might make life too easy. Not in civ.

And yeah, I've never quite figured out exactly how to do that resource trading thing either so don't feel bad. MAYBE someone will come along and it explain it more completely for those of us that are a bit slower.

I'm sure I could master it if I had any real curiosity about it, but to me it just sounds like something that should have been patched, frankly.

 

[Kallikrates]

Yes, but it is (in some respects) hard in the wrong way, that is ridiculous bonuses for the AI that make some strategies necessary and reduce (for me) the plurality of options and what I think (or got the impression by playing CIV I and II and IV for about 20y) should be the "real" mechanics.
That is e.g.:
-slavery should not be so overpowered (or the only possibility to get an early expansion or a fast army buildup to succeed beyond monarch or so), that it is most of the time irrational to use most of the other civics.
-Marketplaces, libraries etc. should be better for your science/wealth progress than just "building" wealth/science, not the other way round in most cities/situations.
-specialized improvements for tiles should be better than just get lots of food and whip anything you want to produce
- wonders should not be OP (true of CIV IV, but not of some earlier ones, like Leonardos Workshop)
- the unavoidable differences between maps should be reduced by some smart building options or tile improvements, not exaggerated as they clearly are. That is, if you lack food you are punished doubly because of the importance of slavery, if you have stone/marble etc. you profit doubly by the failgold option, if you have precious metals you get overpowered tiles early, whereas calendar resources or wine are useless for many turns and not even be as good as gold etc. To get some balance into this, the calendar resources should give better yields (or more happiness or whatever) than gems mines, not vice versa

 

[rah]

I'm sure I could master it if I had any real curiosity about it, but to me it just sounds like something that should have been patched, frankly.

I couldn't agree more.

And again, in one city I have no problem but when I can collect fail gold in a dozen cities on a single national wonder, that just seems wrong to me.

 

[Tristan_C]

In the Moai/globe thread down the page, I was trying to make a point about delaying returns. Moai strikes me as unduly popular for failgold, considering how situational the NW is. I was surprised when people came out of the woodwork to sneer at its effects in general terms and even brag about finishing it solely for the gold to make a point about how useless it is (I don't know if they realize that it netted them -900).

While I use failgold whenever it's feasible, at some point we have to think about how discounted the gold gets the longer we delay completion. During a failgold stockpile, you delay the completion of the NW and receiving its effects, and you delay benefits conferred by deficit research.

On the first count, we have this NW, Moai, that generates hammers. (A wonder can only be under construction in one city at a time, and Moai itself should not be built at all on many maps.) Yet because it generates hammers, the opportunity cost of withholding it from an optimal site for 50 turns is, of course, somewhere around 50 times the number of water tiles it would have covered during that period. So taking failgold on this wonder makes more sense if you quickly direct whip overflow towards it across multiple cities (essentially turning excess food into tech) before completing it. Just hammering it out normally in multiple cities if there is a site begging for it is a comparatively dumb thing to do, especially after currency.

Delaying research can also be dubious. If your goals are so far off that it's fine to sit around in poverty for a long time before drawing failgold, you might want to reevaluate these goals. While this is not usually as serious as delaying all chops until math, it is the same principle.

 

[rah]

I'm not debating the value of using multiple cities for fail gold, just stating JUST MY opinion that I think it's and exploit. Even in your example you listed a way that it could make sense. But by listing the ways that it's might not be optimal has no relevance on whether it's an exploit. Again, just my opinion.

 

[Izuul]

Tristan you don't have to delay research if you plan ahead with your fail gold and time it appropriately. Also delaying moai probably costs like 2h per turn on avg for as long as it's delayed provided you only work water tiles that are actually worth working (food tiles). The loss isn't great.

 

[TheSunIsDark]

You can actually whip a wonder when the notification comes up but before the build order is disqualified to get gold and overflow. Although whipping wonders is less efficient than whipping units, with 10 hammers per pop. Yes, building a wonder 4.5 times for the failgold is an exploit. Sometimes I find the AI is so slow that I just build it myself, though.

 

[rah]

You can actually whip a wonder when the notification comes up but before the build order is disqualified to get gold and overflow.

Never knew that. Always learn something new here.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Fail wealth is not an exploit. The developers ensured that the same wonder could not be built simultaneously in multiple cities. That could be argued to be an exploit when hammer multipliers are involved. They knew a player could still build the same wonder serially in multiple cities, but decided not to patch away the benefit of serial wonder fail wealh.

As mentioned by others, there is a definite opportunity cost when building wonders for fail wealth. There is also the delayed benefit to consider; access to wealth now is clearly far more valuable than the same amount of wealth later. In addition to the intristic loss of value in wonder fail wealth due to the large numbers of turns it is delayed , it loses even more value explicitly through the increasing inflation rate.

In SGOTM, wealth building must be balanced with wonder fail wealth. If it really where an exploit, wonder fail wealth would be used as much as possible. However, there are often better things to build than wonders for fail wealth such as military units, critical buildings and yes, even building wealth can be better, since the benefit is immediate.

Just because someone may not like a tactic (wonder fail wealth), doesn't make it an exploit. Exploits are the result of bugs or poor design.

No amount of posts from a minority of players saying wonder fail wealth is an exploit will convince the vast majority of players that using the tactic is an exploit. The game is full of other investment mechanisms with unequal attributes such as the philosophical trait, but noone claims that the philosophical trait is an exploit when leveraged early in the game when it has its greatest benefit.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

You can actually whip a wonder when the notification comes up but before the build order is disqualified to get gold and overflow. Although whipping wonders is less efficient than whipping units, with 10 hammers per pop. Yes, building a wonder 4.5 times for the failgold is an exploit. Sometimes I find the AI is so slow that I just build it myself, though.

Yes, whipping a wonder a turn after an AI has completed it, can be done, and it will result in fail wealth in the full hammer value of the wonder on the following turn. In this limited case, I agree that the illegal whip should not be allowed, because without such a whip, the organic hammers added to a already completed wonder are deferred to the next build. This very limited situation of an illegal whip being allowed is a bug and thus an exploit. However, nothing else related to the wonder fail wealth tactic is an exploit (bug/poor design).

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[NihilZero]

-slavery should not be so overpowered (or the only possibility to get an early expansion or a fast army buildup to succeed beyond monarch or so), that it is most of the time irrational to use most of the other civics.

Slavery is important and is probably the single best civic, but it's not quite as obligatory as you suggest. It's quite possible to win up to Immortal without whipping at all (Deity is quite another matter, mind you) and Caste can be very strong in a lot of instances.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Slavery is important and is probably the single best civic, but it's not quite as obligatory as you suggest. It's quite possible to win up to Immortal without whipping at all (Deity is quite another matter, mind you) and Caste can be very strong in a lot of instances.

Agreed! Slavery is very powerful; so powerful that I often do not switch to Caste System soon enough to generate the great people my strategy needs with the correct timing. Also, Free Speech is very poweful too, especially for a cultural victory.

Nationhood is even more powerful than Slavery; When drafting rifleman, the hammers per population is 110, whereas whipping them is only 30 hammers per population (no forge) or 37.5 hammers per population (with a forge). The hammer ratio of drafting/whipping riflemen is 110/30 = 3.7 (no forge) or 110/37.5 = 2.93 (with a forge). So clearly, drafting rifleman is many times more powerful than whipping them, with or without a forge. Of course, Slavery is better since it is available very early in the game and can be used to whip anything, whereas drafting requires Nationalism and can draft only the most basic foot soldier of the era (rifleman having the best drafting hammer/population ratio.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Tristan_C]

I'm not debating the value of using multiple cities for fail gold, just stating JUST MY opinion that I think it's and exploit. Even in your example you listed a way that it could make sense. But by listing the ways that it's might not be optimal has no relevance on whether it's an exploit. Again, just my opinion.

Yeah I definitely wasn't commenting on whether or not it was an exploit. I probably shouldn't comment, either. I still miss 3.17 Wealth Walls.

Tristan you don't have to delay research if you plan ahead with your fail gold and time it appropriately. Also delaying moai probably costs like 2h per turn on avg for as long as it's delayed provided you only work water tiles that are actually worth working (food tiles). The loss isn't great.

When that's the loss per turn for delaying completion, this puts you back to the basic question of whether a building is necessary, because you definitely shouldn't start the Moai at all there, least of all for failgold. Maps either scream for this NW, or they don't. Usually they don't.

By "delay research" I'm speaking in rather strict terms like in Sun Tzu's post 51 above. If you decide to build a library, but you could have built wealth and bumped the slider instead, you've technically delayed your research. As he says, it's a balancing act. These are all investment mechanisms.

 

[Izuul]

When that's the loss per turn for delaying completion, this puts you back to the basic question of whether a building is necessary, because you definitely shouldn't start the Moai at all there, least of all for failgold. Maps either scream for this NW, or they don't. Usually they don't.

With stone (even better stone + IND) it really can be worth building *just* for the fail gold if built in multiple cities. This isn't something that fits in every game though obviously. NE and HE are superior choices if marble is present because they are buildings that we typically want to complete thus there's not nearly as much investment that needs to be recovered.

 

[Fippy]

Was my favorite part of what we used in this sgotm, planning fail gold fills me with joy
What about you Izu ~~

 

[Strategist83]

I still don't see why failgold is so useful. Hammers are worth a lot more than commerce (1h ~4c). How often are you in a situation where there's nothing useful for a city to build? One can always build military - you can even afford to build a Barracks first with its measly 30 hammer cost. You'd have to be in some obscure Pacifism-civic-everybody-loves-me -anyway situation. Or perhaps to raise gold short term for some emergency situation.

Obviously it's a lot better than building wealth, but that's only because doing so is a terrible idea in the first place.

Besides, it is *obviously* an exploit - Firaxis didn't intend for you to build the same wonder 4.5 times in multiple cities.

 

[Izuul]

I still don't see why failgold is so useful. Hammers are worth a lot more than commerce (1h ~4c). How often are you in a situation where there's nothing useful for a city to build? One can always build military - you can even afford to build a Barracks first with its measly 30 hammer cost. You'd have to be in some obscure Pacifism-civic-everybody-loves-me -anyway situation. Or perhaps to raise gold short term for some emergency situation.

Obviously it's a lot better than building wealth, but that's only because doing so is a terrible idea in the first place.

No, you build wealth and fail gold so that you can finance 100% research slider. Building units and unnecessary buildings does the exact opposite to your finances.

 

[Ghpstage]

Obviously it's a lot better than building wealth, but that's only because doing so is a terrible idea in the first place.

Unless your playing vanilla building Weath is accepted as a strong investment due to its short term returns and the often very long time it would take to get comparable returns after building a courthouse or market.
Its most commonly used in the beeline to a pressable advantage.

Failgold then is just wealth with more multipliers, whips, with restricted build conditions and an uncertain payoff date.

One can always build military... You'd have to be in some obscure Pacifism-civic-everybody-loves-me -anyway situation.

You can't really be building an army all the time in every game. The ideal military is minimalistic until you want to use it.
Its not uncommon to get situations where you can rule out almost any possibility of being declared war on through good diplomacy. After the first 60-80 turns or so you should be able to tell when a war is possible, and most of the time get a warning during the AIs build up, and tricks can be used to delay it or even block it entirely during that plan.


Back to the general topic,
Personally I don't see an 'exploit' as a bad thing, to me exploitation is merely using the game world to achieve something (its in the genre 4X!). Anything from defending against a barb on a forested hill to declaring war on a weak neighbour is exploiting mechanics to your own advantage!
Thats not to say that problems don't occur where mechanics are truly broken , but I don't think intention is a metric with any value, afterall, AP diplomatic victory is intended, and vassals are clearly borked!
I also doubt that whip overflow was intended to be used to the extent it is, nor used to circumvent whip penalties on wonders, nor was spawnbusting intended, or city gifting for diplo, or 1 gold begs for peace treaties, or many, many other things......

As far as failgold goes, its strong yes, but it doesn't come close to comparing with tech trades.

I still miss 3.17 Wealth Walls.

Me too, along with all the other overflow gold tricks such as Warriors/Fishing boats with HE, or Granary chop/whips.
This 'exploit' singlehandedly made the Protective trait good, but certainly wasn't limited to them. Perhaps it could have done with toning down a little, but it wasn't really needed, and they certainly didn't have to break gold overflow to do so.