Fall Further 050 Balance Issues

[Tarquelne]

Sometimes when I discover construction, the option to build the Artisan's Workshop just isn't there. Makes it very hard to get great engineers.

Some of the civs don't get AWs - Archos, for example. Do you remember what civ you were playing as?

Even with the AW, though, great engineers are still far and away the hardest GPs to get. I think more early engineer things need to be added.

A Master building is supposed to be more for Builder than Warmonger style-play. Toward that end they've been made as difficult to get as they are. But, yes, that's something that might need to be adjusted.

 

[K7avenged]

Well, if we're balancing things here...can we chill with the demon/undead/elemental spawns in hell terrain. They are spawning way to many it seems. The AC counter is about 45, and about a third of the world has turned to hell, but holy crap, those spawns are making for a very dull game as hyborem. I don't even have to lift a finger because they are going on a rampage, even if HALF of them just sit there. I like the mechanic, but its gotten to the point where its not much fun as the AI just gets all of its improvements pillaged and won't do anything about it. So can we cap the spawn or slow it way down. I'd expect this kind of thing @ 100 AC, but 45...sheesh.

 

[xienwolf]

It was supposed to be that on Deity the spawns get close to 1 demon per tile, but I flubbed the numbers when placing them in the Handicap infos resulting in something like 1 per tile + another one for every 8 AC above 0. Vehem removed the booster for the next patch.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

so THAT is why I've been having trouble with demons lately

about workboats: they are flagged as military flavour, so the AI will sometimes use them to explore. and, they get built with food+hammers when running Conquest.

 

[WarKirby]

Some of the civs don't get AWs - Archos, for example. Do you remember what civ you were playing as?

Bannor

Do they get it ?

 

[Iceciro]

Nope. The only building the Bannor civ can't build, in fact, is the Artisan's Workshop.

 

[WarKirby]

A Master building is supposed to be more for Builder than Warmonger style-play. Toward that end they've been made as difficult to get as they are. But, yes, that's something that might need to be adjusted.

It really doesn't seem like it, because they give unique military promotions, that certainly aren't for peaceful use.

If the bannor can't get that, can they at least have a GE slot on the Gallows building, or somesuch? they need a way to get early engineers.

 

[Iceciro]

Yeah, I will say the Master buildings are a hybrid between builder-and-warmonger but if you're not going to be putting the shiny pointy things into enemies, why spend the money on the shiny pointy things?

 

[Tarquelne]

Yes, that is true, all those combat bonus promotions *are not* for peaceful use.

However, that a civ has access to them at all is a result of spending hammers/beakers items that are more for "peaceful" use - not that anything in civ is purely peaceful - than other things. The Artisan's Workshop telegraphs that intent by giving a bonus non-military hammers.

If the bannor can't get that, can they at least have a GE slot on the Gallows building, or somesuch? they need a way to get early engineers.

Do they? Why not instead go after someone who diverted their research to pick up Construction early, wasted a bunch of hammers on the non-military Artisan's Workshop and has followed up that with spending all his gold getting High Quality Bronze Weapons for a measly +20%? That's "Measly" when you've got stacks of Clan-War veteran Shock troops.

The Equipment isn't supposed to be standard issue, but a reward and/or compensation for following a more peaceful policy. It's a way to get a powerful army (for some value of "powerful") without building a lot of units and/or engaging in a lot of fighting. And if the lot of units/fighting way isn't better than Equipment should probably be nerfed.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

Gibbon and Khad are the only spellcasting heroes that cannot build a mana node. it would probably be fair to let them do it

 

[DavidB1111]

Um, the Artisian's workshop doesn't enable any military promotions at all. Only the master buildings do, and they all require a different building to create, and any civ can build them. Because the required buildings are on everyone's list. I think. Plus they only cost one great engineer. Ah, and there's the Guild of Hammers, etc.

Otherwise it's a nasty balance issue if certain races can't build it.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

a couple suggestions to make the CoE a bit more attractive as a state religion:

1) Shadows could require COE as state religion. not shadow UUs though.

2) Eyes and Ears Network could also require COE, neat and fitting.

of course, the best thing IMHO would be to re-implement BTS style espionage as a CoE only feature

 

[WarKirby]

[QUOTE='[to_xp]
of course, the best thing IMHO would be to re-implement BTS style espionage as a CoE only feature [/QUOTE]

This seems like a good way to make CoE more attractive, with fairly minimal developer work.

 

[TimSLS]

BTS espionage seems to presupose everyone engaging in it - aren't costs for missions based on a comparison of how many espionage points you have against a rival versus how many they have against you? If I've got that right, costs for esus civ to run missions would be very, very low, if other civs can't also use the espionage system, or can only accumulate minimal espionage points.

Also, I'm not sure if it would make sense - maybe esus would be most aggresive about espionage, but empyriam would be expected to have extraordinary counterintelligence.

Does Esus really need a boost? Granted, its not much of a sample, but a buddy of mine ran it with the lanun the other day and was extremely succecful, partly due to the trading synergies. Also, Gibbon was hugely powerful - a channelling 3 unit that early in the game is very, very powerful. His water elementals broke the back of the doviollo military...

 

[TimSLS]

David, I think the reason Tarq mentioned the artisan workshop in the context of getting weapon upgrades is because it enables you to assign engineer specilists, which in turn allow you to get great engineers, which in turn are the route to getting the master buildings, which enable the upgrades.

 

[xienwolf]

Have you TRIED our new promotions? Esus rocks, just nobody seems to have realized it quite yet.

 

[TimSLS]

As one example (and granted hannah being a raider plays in to this) my buddy promoted the black wind to rackateering and was getting around 20-80 gold everytime he pillaged some fishing boats...just roamed the world destroying everyones fishing and running his economy at -30 a turn.

 

[jwin]

I played one game to specifically try out Essus, but found that except for very high level units, the regular promotions were more attractive than the Essus ones. I really wanted to be impressed by them, but was a little underwhelmed.

I don't think they are useless, so I didn't post anything balance-wise, but I couldn't justify spending a promotion on them very often.

 

[Iceciro]

Promotions =/= priest units.

Camisade is nice, but you need Commando or Decietful for it.

Decietful is a 5% withdrawl chance. It allows Misdirection with Tactics II . Deceitful requires Fade Away, so that's at least four promotions for Misdirection, which still incurs a heavy cost. 30g isn't a huge amount, but it is there and you can't afford to drop it every turn on multiple units. All those promotions you missed on the way in are reducing the unit's combat prowess.

I can see the use, but in general you're plying a few promotions that give units neat toys at a cost versus being able to put in a say, pack of high priests of the OO around to slaughter coastal cities, or Order preists dropping Bless on your already high-promoted 4x First Strike units to ensure they handle problems, or the Balor repeatable summons from AV...

Don't get me wrong, it's a step in the right direction, but right now 1) Esus still comes too late and 2) has no temples or priests and doesn't give me enough toys to make up for it yet. Compare Esus to the other late religion, Empyrean. Chalid versus Gibbon is a pretty easy contest, alone.
The opportunity cost for the CoE promotions is higher than just diverting some to a priest.

 

[xienwolf]

Freelancer = unlimited National Units (yeah, 28 Archmages if you so desire, but at the cost of a couple levels). Also means Unlimited Immortal national units (but at the cost of not controlling them personally the entire time. Which with our enhanced AI Control shouldn't be a huge issue. Get them in place with Loyalty, then let them bust loose and have some fun).


And if you don't intend to go all the way up, you still have automatic withdrawal for most any unit, only costing you a bit of cash, and promotions to augment your already developed troops with to enhance you cash flow nicely.