Fall Further Plus

[Valkrionn]

Actually, sacrificing a wolf should give a pack an Empower promotion. Once you get 5, the next wolf removes them and increases base strength, letting it start over. If you aren't getting a promotion we've got a problem.

As for Fort Commanders, they're all strong. Initially the Dwarves are only one or two strength over the norm... Most of their bonuses come from the Dwarven Commander promotions.

@PPQ - Leveling restores some health and grants a promotion. I believe it also influences the power rating of the unit, which is used for the AI.

 

[lordrune]

Actually, that's half the point of them. Wanted a good reason for Doviello to go FoL. Although it's only supposed to be buildable on Ice and Tundra... Is it buildable in all forests, or does it just preserve forests?

It's only buildable on Ice and Tundra, but the Yarangas do remain after terraforming with e.g. Scorch.

Because the forts have their own culture, you have to assault them at some point. It may be possible to force them to switch control through culture influence, but I haven't seen it happen.

I was winning a game with culture, and one of my border cities was pushing hard into my rivals territory, but the rival's fort remained and refused to flip.

I think the fort should add a small amount of culture per turn to the tile and/or the surrounding 8, rather than force-flip them back to the fort owner, although I'm not entirely sure how this works.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

They're buildable on ice as well, and in forests.

I can see myself trying to create a Doviello/FoL/Yarangas on Ancient Forest-grasslands by using creative terraforming - would be quite a challenge but the cities would be phenomenally powerful

That is powerful...but requires a lot of work to make it happen. Not sure it is an issue, really.

 

[Tholal]

Actually, sacrificing a wolf should give a pack an Empower promotion. Once you get 5, the next wolf removes them and increases base strength, letting it start over. If you aren't getting a promotion we've got a problem.

Hmmm... I'll double-check that tonight.

As for Fort Commanders, they're all strong. Initially the Dwarves are only one or two strength over the norm... Most of their bonuses come from the Dwarven Commander promotions.

True. I guess the issue is that the Khazad will have these forts all over the place from very early in the game while other civilizations will have fewer fort structures, and they'll be built at a much later point. I guess that fits thematically, but I found it a bit frustrating. I was playing as the Doviello and had easily rolled over the Elohim, the Khadi and the Calabim with one stack of Beastmen led by Lucian, but then I ran into the Khazad and was brought to an immediate halt, despite having all these veteran units. Not only were any attempts at assaults on the Dwarven Mines giving me odds of less than 0.1%, but their cities were almost as tough to crack (does the fort defense bonus extend to nearby cities?) On the flip side, when playing as the Khazad, I felt pretty much invulnerable and was able to expand as quickly as I wanted, whenever and wherever I chose. Maybe that strength discrepancy fades away later in the game, but at the moment, it feels like something needs to give in regards to the Khazad.

 

[Valkrionn]

Yeah, not worried about scorching it. Very low yields for anyone but Doviello, and I don't see them with scorch very often.

As for fort culture, my evemtual goal is to have it exert culture like a city, at least so far as being a constant attribute rather than having to check it every turn. That will take a LOT of dll work though.

 

[Valkrionn]

The Khazad ARE tough to root out. They don't have many cities or much pop though, and less food from farms... The Commanders aren't as game-changing later on.

 

[lordrune]

Yeah, not worried about scorching it. Very low yields for anyone but Doviello, and I don't see them with scorch very often.

Well, once you've got animal handling, they're the same yield as a standard sanitation farm but with an extra hammer. And that's for non-Doviello civs.

A carefully and cleverly played Doviello mid-early game in a cold start area could end up with cities full of tiles like the following:
Plains + Yaranga + Ancient Forest
= 5 food, 3 hammers. Pretty potent!

You just need Knowledge Of The Ether + Divination (or whatever Sun mana is) to get Shamans with Scorch, and Mysticism/Hunting/Way Of The Forests + Priesthood for priests to cast Bloom (+ Animal Handling to get the full benefit of the Yarangas)

You'd want to make sure you got the order of the terraforming right of course

-edit:
if I were to suggest a change to yarangas, it would be to drop off the +1 food from animal handling. They really shouldn't be providing the same amount of food as a farm!

And I don't think they should be buildable on ice.
Could scorch could be made to destroy improvements? Terraforming should always come with a cost anyway so this isn't unrealistic, and would fix the issue where Doviello have an *incentive* to move away from tundra...

 

[Vermicious Knid]

Well, once you've got animal handling, they're the same yield as a standard sanitation farm but with an extra hammer. And that's for non-Doviello civs.

A carefully and cleverly played Doviello mid-early game in a cold start area could end up with cities full of tiles like the following:
Plains + Yaranga + Ancient Forest
= 5 food, 3 hammers. Pretty potent!

You just need Knowledge Of The Ether + Divination (or whatever Sun mana is) to get Shamans with Scorch, and Mysticism/Hunting/Way Of The Forests + Priesthood for priests to cast Bloom (+ Animal Handling to get the full benefit of the Yarangas)

You'd want to make sure you got the order of the terraforming right of course

Powerful...but still not as good as Elves can do. Seems fair, since you'll need to be pursuing an otherwise suboptimal FOL strategy.

 

[Valkrionn]

Actually, you don't need priests. Elks will have access too, and come at the same tech. Mage/Priest combo, but can't learn spells aside those it starts with.

 

[Guybrush!]

Just some ideas:
Could the Mechanos get a replacement for crossbowmen? Seems kinda odd that they don't, perhaps dual revolver weilding gunslingers.
Also, do the Mechanos have a way of dispelling mana nodes? I remember playing a Wild Mana game as them and I couldn't change them to blank mana nodes for refined mana.
And, again on the note of the Mechanos, Ordo Machinarium lacks a special interface for Religion based Interface. Probably ain't too many people who use it though.
Could goblin forts act as...well...forts for the barbs? Give them weaker commanders though. Also, while talking about forts, could forts be made to grab resources, but without the yield bonus?
Small bug : Shrimp doesn't contribute to the Kingfishers Brotherhood.
Also, could the Master Siegesmith have some things available to ships? Be much easier than making a master shipwright.
Where is the weights for Religions set? I would like to lower the AI's tendancy to follow AV.
And on a side note, (look at attached pictures), since when was the Sailor's Dirge back in the game, and how does the Leviathan spawn?
Also, Thanatos's pedia entry comes up completely blank except for his thumbnail pic. And his model is a red blob. And he doesn't show combat odds. Is this problem on my end, or does anyone else have it?

 

[Valkrionn]

I'm looking for art for the Mechanos, actually. I wouldn't give them a UU, but art is needed.

They do have dispell for the Techpriest, requires one of the four mana techs. They get quite a few abilities from them... Check the 'Divine' promotion in the pedia, anything after the religious spels are mechanos specific.

A Religious interface I could probably puzzle out, but it's such a small thing I'm not worried about it... Were I to do it, I'd probably use the same image I used for the background.

Yeah, forgot(rather, didn't occur to me) to add shrimp to a few things.

As for the siegesmith, that wouldn't be a bad idea actually. Would make it more useful for civs other than the Khazad and Mechanos. Got any ideas?

Religious weights are set by leader.... So you've got 103 to go through.

I'm not sure about the Dirge... didn't re-add it myself. Believe FF did. The Leviathan (and other great beasts) have a chance each game to spawn.

Thanatos has no text yet. Will once I add it. Anyone else have issues with the unit art?

 

[WarKirby]

I think you should use something different to "divine" for the techpriest spells. It just doesn't seem right, and it clutters an already cluttered promotion with things that have nothing to do with the gods.

Make a new promo instead of divine, I'd say.

 

[FireBlaze]

Yeah... thanks for the advice Mr. Strategy.

Because the forts have their own culture, you have to assault them at some point. It may be possible to force them to switch control through culture influence, but I haven't seen it happen.

So wait, the mines will be little reminants of the dwarves, that exist even if you kill all their cities? Cool.

 

[WarKirby]

As for the siegesmith, that wouldn't be a bad idea actually. Would make it more useful for civs other than the Khazad and Mechanos. Got any ideas?

I think it would be a bad idea. I really want Master Shipwright to be a seperate building. Especially considering that a few civs aren't capable of building siege weapons, and by extension, siege workshops.

Make Master Shipwright available at Sailing, and require a Harbor. Or possibly a shipyard, though that comes later.

 

[Valkrionn]

So wait, the mines will be little reminants of the dwarves, that exist even if you kill all their cities? Cool.

Well not if you destroy all their cities. Take out the one they're built around though and they'll stay.

 

[420boy]

1. As for the siegesmith, that wouldn't be a bad idea actually. Would make it more useful for civs other than the Khazad and Mechanos. Got any ideas?

2. Thanatos has no text yet. Will once I add it. Anyone else have issues with the unit art?

1. what about providing them with collateral damage (ie. better bombs for the airships) or what about the option to bomb resources, similar to bombers in vanilla civ?

2. I don't have any issues with the art of Thanatos, after using the unofficial patch from WarKirby However, I was wondering why he is so large in comparison to other units. He seems over-sized when considering his relative power level. I believe that previous discussion indicated that size of unit = power of unit in this mod (ex. Goliath and Dragons), so why is he so large, am I missing something? On a side note, should he have the ability to fly? He does have wings after all...

 

[Valkrionn]

@Warkirby - In that case, I'd probably make the building require either a shipyard or siege shop. Not enough promotions for both to exist, I'd rather see a Master Construction Yard than two marginal buildings.

@420boy - I didn't make Thanatos a unique artdef, he's the same size as the Angel of Death. I didn't give him flying because he's early and is invisible. Would be too strong.

 

[Tasunke]

Who is Thanatos? is he at all similar to the Greek God of Death or the Super Coffin T-rex in Persona 3 ?

 

[Valkrionn]

The name is from the Greek god. He's an AoD in the service of Laroth, 'on loan' to D'tesh. D'tesh and Laroth have an... understanding haha. Laroth gets the souls, D'tesh gets the bodies.

 

[jimmythes]

Kudos Forts are extremely fun to play with. More gold from FF+.