Fall Further Plus

[deadliver]

You were so close, it seems so obvious to me. Ordo Mechanicus!

I didn't use that one because of the 40k Adeptus Mechanicus

 

[MagisterCultuum]

What about Ordine Mechanicos? It doesn't make a whole lot of since to put order in the ablative singular and the description is the accusative plural, but that is the way it is in the Ordine Medicos (the order of the Grigori medics). Maybe Patrian (or its derivative languages) don't use the same grammar even though all their words seem to be Latin.

 

[Valkrionn]

Not sure if this should go in the Doviello+ thread instead, but Lucians "Hero" promotion doesnt give the full half experience point. I only got .16 on turn 1.
EDIT: what happened to the 1 exp from eploring lairs? I mean getting bronze wepons for Lucian on turn 2 is nice, but that he only has .32 of his supposed 2 exp is disappointing.

Are you playing on a slower than normal speed? Only thing I can think of.

Another question, how does the shared experence thing work? I cant make heads or tails of it.

It's per unitcombat. So if you have a few very strong melee units, new melee units will be born with some bonus xp, but no other unitcombats will unless you have some already existing with high xp.

awesome mod. I finally realize the true potential of the doviello. turn 152 on marathon and ive wiped 4/9 opponents off the map! Waiting for orthus to come along... Lucian is stronger than him!

Yeah, it's going to be getting some major balancing with the next release.

I like this idea a lot, both specifically in that it's a good idea for the Mechanos, and generally because if you do this there will be an example to use in order to finally get the White hand, the Scions, and the lizardmen religions in.
You should found the religion with the palace, so that you can make them start with it and not have to go through a turn of anarchy. Since you see this as something the Mechanos should always have, making them go through a turn of anarchy to get it just seems unfair.


You should make a shrine (although built by engineers or sages, no prophets) simply because that's how religions work. If you're worried about too many goodies for them, remember that it doesn't have to be an addition, you can make the shrine replace an existing thing.
Your UUs/Priests should replace arcane units, so that anyone who can build them can't build arcane units anymore. I'd keep the Adeptus and Techmage for the Mechanos, and make an inferior version for other civs that adopt the religion.
I'm very glad to see pirate zeppelin on that list, although I wouldn't put them as a part of the religion. Zeppelins are kind of the height of Mechanos technology, so it seems odd to make that be what is available to others through the religion. Boris, if he's still around, would make a far more sensible religious hero. He has a lot more to do with the pseudo-magic aspect of the Mechanos that I see the religion representing, while zeppelins just seem like straight engineering.
This hero zeppelin, will it have the lame version of hidden nationality, or will it actually have a letter-of-marque like promotion that lets it change it's status?

I like this a lot, Goliath always ended up weak for me, and Feris came too late. Can he still do lethal ranged damage if fully promoted?

On a new note, the more I think about it, the more Feris and this hypothetical pirate zeppelin become connected. Is anyone else getting that sense?

I think I'll do that... The palace will just be the shrine. They'll be unable to spread it for a few techs, so it should be fine. A weaker Adeptus/Techmage could work nicely. Gives the dwarves some distinct bonuses, without it being too strong.

You know, I'd forgotten about Boris... You're right, he would work there. And with the Zeppelins, I've been tempted to move the Ironclad to be Khazad only, rather than shared, and replace it with the Zeppelins. So it's either that, or make it the religious unit.

I think you mean Feris here? Yes, yes she can. She still has a 100% ranged damage limit.

As long as you're making a "real" religion for the mechanos, could you implement The White Hand for the illians too?

That's something to work on later, but I'd like to.

Why isent that already implemented? The WH would make a nice religion for anyone to adopt.

I would love to see a scenarion where AV has ruined the world and thretenes to destroy all and only the ultimate force of the White Hand and winter can stop it.

Esentialy, using one great evil power to fight the other.

........You people are making me very tempted to do it now, and delay the release. Don't think I will though.

Their Shrine could really just be Steamworks. Not sure they need anything else there, just change it to a wonder buildable with Great Prophet or Engineer (I say Prophet because if you are leaving the priest line open for them they'll be just as likely to get Prophets as the next guy).

Of course that raises the question of a world spell if you move Steamworks...

Adeptus and techpriest are probably too strong to be available to the Dwarves. Weaker dwarf versions would be fairly easy to crank out though....

If techpriest is moving to fanaticism...are the Mechanos expected to just restart if they have bad terrain where they spawn? If I know I can't do anything about it until fanaticism I'll just try again if I see marshes, jungle, tundra, etc... Seems like a serious flaw.

The altars...will they stay buildable? Right now they are, and if you make Machine Cult a religion they should stay that way.

Steamtanks are already available to Khazad and Mechanos...maybe make them one of the religious units?

Hmm... Any good Worldspell ideas then? And which altars do you mean?

I think with Elementalism the adeptus will be able to get Scorch/Spring. Makes you work harder for it.

And Steam Tanks would make a perfect religious unit. I'll have to reduce it's strength and make it available earlier, but it fits nicely.

You were so close, it seems so obvious to me. Ordo Mechanicus!

It's always bothered me how civs that clearly do follow a religion *cough* Illians *cough* are labeled inappropriately as agnostic. So I completely agree it's a good idea. It might be the start of a larger project. But is it really necessary? Can other civs be forced to adopt this religion if vassalized/teamed even with a -100 weight?

This, I do not know.... I don't think they would be able to. I might have to give a -99 weight. Seeing as noone else can found it, it should be okay.

It really seems like this would be more appropriate as a guild. For each refined mana consumed any city with this guild would gain +1 +1. This solves the problem with what to do with refined mana without making uberunits and without diminishing it's importance.

Probably, but I like the religion.

This is good. Mechanos should have access to the pagan temple AND a religious temple. Unlike most other "agnostics" they really don't have access to culture improvements except for the drama route.

That's one of the main reasons I like it. That, and the fact that it's a method to forge a greater alliance with the Dwarves... They seem like they'd be able to coexist perfectly fine with them.

Oh, and WK, if you feel like working on any FF+ art, take a look at the Dwarven Cannon. It just ... words cannot express how it offends my senses.

I'm importing the Dwaven Cannon art from Orbis, so it'll look like the Howitzer but with a dwarf behind it rather than a techpriest.

What about Ordine Mechanicos? It doesn't make a whole lot of since to put order in the ablative singular and the description is the accusative plural, but that is the way it is in the Ordine Medicos (the order of the Grigori medics). Maybe Patrian (or its derivative languages) don't use the same grammar even though all their words seem to be Latin.

I like it, especially because there's already a similiar one in game.

 

[BenjaminEmbarec]

Um.. am I crazy, or am I missing something? I tried dling this from scratch then patching it and I still don't see the mechanos as useable, or in the pedia. 0.o Are they not available yet and everyone's just talking about them in Orbis, or...? I was under the impression that they were being tested here, and coulda sworn someone mentioned fighting the Dtesh as them...

 

[Valkrionn]

They're being tested by two people atm, the version with them in is not publicly available. They're just using this thread to point out balance concerns/field ideas, conveniently allowing other people to comment on them.

It should be out sometime this weekend. Not promising anything now that I'm making a religion as well.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

Hmm... Any good Worldspell ideas then? And which altars do you mean?

Altars of Luonnatar (spelling?). Worldspell....errrrm. Tough one. They do the technology instead of magic thing, so it should have that flavor. Shutting off magic for a while would be thematic, but that is the Amurites thing. I suppose it could be one of the cop-out World Spells (Awaken Goliath. Yay, you get your hero that most civs would just build in a few turns. Yawn)...but that would suck.

How about the World Spell giving all of your non-adept troops a promotion that makes them nonliving (machines) and gives your civ the fallow trait? "Merge with Machine Spirit"? "Womb of Iron"?

Not sure how you would make this an interesting timing choice....maybe settling new cities becomes VERY difficult after you go all hard and shiny?

 

[Milaga]

Um.. am I crazy, or am I missing something? I tried dling this from scratch then patching it and I still don't see the mechanos as useable, or in the pedia. 0.o Are they not available yet and everyone's just talking about them in Orbis, or...? I was under the impression that they were being tested here, and coulda sworn someone mentioned fighting the Dtesh as them...

Some of us had a beta patch to test the Mechanos. There were a some changes from the Orbis version and as it turned out they played a little TOO well with wild mana. They aren't yet available in FFPlus.

You might also be crazy, but what I said above is still true.

EDIT: Too slow.

 

[Valkrionn]

Ah, those Altars. I'm not sure, honestly. I'm leaning towards blocking them.

I thought about attaching Goliath to the spell, actually, but would rather not...

The fallow idea is interesting, but then they'd be unable to gain pop.




An idea that I think would be interesting, would be applying a promotion to all siege units in the game, for 20? turns, that allows them to kill, through ranged or direct combat, and increases their strength by a large amount. Would be great for the Mechanos, but it could potentially bite you.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

Ah, those Altars. I'm not sure, honestly. I'm leaning towards blocking them.

I thought about attaching Goliath to the spell, actually, but would rather not...

The fallow idea is interesting, but then they'd be unable to gain pop.




An idea that I think would be interesting, would be applying a promotion to all siege units in the game, for 20? turns, that allows them to kill, through ranged or direct combat, and increases their strength by a large amount. Would be great for the Mechanos, but it could potentially bite you.

Please don't block the altars. They have a good synergy with a mad machine cultist theocracy.

Fallow idea...make them build population once the spell gets cast. The image of a factory churning out citizens under the demented eye of an adeptus having a nice cup of tea is just so right.

Siege boost is neat, but it isn't like the Mechanos won't always have a commanding lead in siege weapons. That world spell would read "cast to finish war with troublesome foe".

 

[Valkrionn]

Hmm.... I do like the imagery there.....

 

[Valkrionn]

The more I think about it, the more I like it. I'd just add a new ritual, available only to Fallow Mechanos, that allows them to increase population. Would have to figure a way to change production based on the amount of population in a city... Something along the lines of the Scions Open Borders discount should work.

I'm thinking it would only be castable by a Techpriest, and would require at least Machinery as well. So Fanaticism/Machinery as the reqs... And for the AI, have it require a large total population before allowing it to be cast.

This would, of course, eliminate unhealth throughout the empire... Maybe add a few as well.

 

[cIV_khanh93]

Originally Posted by cIV_khanh93
Not sure if this should go in the Doviello+ thread instead, but Lucians "Hero" promotion doesnt give the full half experience point. I only got .16 on turn 1.
EDIT: what happened to the 1 exp from eploring lairs? I mean getting bronze wepons for Lucian on turn 2 is nice, but that he only has .32 of his supposed 2 exp is disappointing.

Are you playing on a slower than normal speed? Only thing I can think of.

Oh duh... im used to FFH not scaling hero exp. .16=1/3*1/2

Quote:
Originally Posted by cIV_khanh93
Another question, how does the shared experence thing work? I cant make heads or tails of it.

It's per unitcombat. So if you have a few very strong melee units, new melee units will be born with some bonus xp, but no other unitcombats will unless you have some already existing with high xp.

Are there any numbers or code snippets you can show?

 

[far_wanderer]

You know, I'd forgotten about Boris... You're right, he would work there. And with the Zeppelins, I've been tempted to move the Ironclad to be Khazad only, rather than shared, and replace it with the Zeppelins. So it's either that, or make it the religious unit.

I think you mean Feris here? Yes, yes she can. She still has a 100% ranged damage limit.

........You people are making me very tempted to do it now, and delay the release. Don't think I will though.

>Ironclads would be cool as a dwarf UU, you could make it seem slightly less about incredible technological advancement, and more about not wanting to stop being underground, even while sailing.
>I did mean Feris, sorry. I haven't played Orbis again yet since my hard drive crashed two months ago, so some of the details are a bit fuzzy now.
>You shouldn't delay the release, you should plan it for the next release. That way we can quit being jealous of the beta testers.


Things are getting too hectic for me to keep track of all the quotes, so let me respond to the rest of this by topic:

Gaining Fallow: It would be interesting, but it would also be a very fundamental change to the nature of the Mechanos. This seems like more the purview of an alternate leader than a world spell.

World Spell ideas:
>Renewable Resources - gain an additional source of refined mana from the palace.
>Eureka! - discover a single technology.

Altars: Are the Mechanos against the concept of divinity? Because it seems more like they are simply unsatisfied with the current options. Bringing back the One could be a possible goal for them. Also, for future brainstorming possibilities - is it possible to create a UU of a Great Person? I'm thinking that if you do block the Altars, the Mechanos could use a unique Great Prophet.

 

[Valkrionn]

Ironclads would be cool as a dwarf UU, you could make it seem slightly less about incredible technological advancement, and more about not wanting to stop being underground, even while sailing.

I like that, actually.

I did mean Feris, sorry. I haven't played Orbis again yet since my hard drive crashed two months ago, so some of the details are a bit fuzzy now.
You shouldn't delay the release, you should plan it for the next release. That way we can quit being jealous of the beta testers.

Pretty much what I'm gonna do.

Things are getting too hectic for me to keep track of all the quotes, so let me respond to the rest of this by topic:

Gaining Fallow: It would be interesting, but it would also be a very fundamental change to the nature of the Mechanos. This seems like more the purview of an alternate leader than a world spell.

Actually, I keep expanding the idea in my head...... I wouldn't be surprised if eventually, an all-Golem civ shows up. Or at least, something along those lines.

World Spell ideas:
>Renewable Resources - gain an additional source of refined mana from the palace.
>Eureka! - discover a single technology.

I like the Eureka idea... It already gives you research based on the number of mills you have, so it's not that far of a leap. Maybe have it throw you into anarchy for a turn or two to compensate.

 

[Milaga]

Are there any numbers or code snippets you can show?

Here's the code for sharing experience.

Spoiler CustomFunctions.py line 2259 :

	def inheritExperience(self, newUnit, fReturnRate):
		if not newUnit.isAlive():
			return
		py = PyPlayer(newUnit.getOwner())
		iTotalXP = 0
		iMatchingUnits = 0
		if newUnit.getUnitCombatType() == -1:
			return
		for pUnit in py.getUnitList():
			if pUnit.getUnitCombatType() == newUnit.getUnitCombatType() and pUnit != newUnit:
				iTotalXP += pUnit.getExperience()
				iTotalXP += pUnit.baseCombatStr()
				iMatchingUnits += 1
		if iMatchingUnits == 0:
			return
		iAverage = int(iTotalXP / (iMatchingUnits ** fReturnRate))
		newUnit.changeExperience(iAverage, -1, false, false, false)

Ironclads would be cool as a dwarf UU, you could make it seem slightly less about incredible technological advancement, and more about not wanting to stop being underground, even while sailing.

When you put it that way, it makes perfect sense. Now we should give the dwarves submarines!

Gaining Fallow: It would be interesting, but it would also be a very fundamental change to the nature of the Mechanos. This seems like more the purview of an alternate leader than a world spell.

I'm not sure I like it either. It is a pretty radical change. I am intrigued by the mechanics behind a civ that eventually becomes fallow. What is even more interesting is how to play a civ that starts fallow and then eventually loses this trait.

 

[Valkrionn]

Woops, missed that post...... Yeah, I can't give exact numbers because I didn't write it, but it looks like it takes both unitxp and combat strength into account, and then averages it for that unitcombat.

Yeah, the idea has completely mutated in my head. It's not going to be applied to the Mechanos, rather, it'll be a completely new civ if I make it. Of course, it would be more than fallow.....

 

[Milaga]

I started another game (as Dural, since I've never really played them) but I've already given up on it. D'Tesh started close to me with a few wild mana guardians. Somehow he popped Archery early and just sat back firing away at the guardians for around 150 turns. Then he declared war on me and sent a stack of six highly promoted archers my way. Unfortunately, since his archers are undead they all have the fear promotion.

Is there any way to turn off xp for ranged combat? I didn't see anything in the python but I don't know where to look. Six fear causing Archery III Drill IV Combat V units is pretty wicked.

Also, Flauros built a refinery on one of his mana nodes. It has pretty good yeild bonuses so I can see why he did it. But *how* did he do it?

 

[Valkrionn]

Ouch. Luckily, this is a question I can answer..... in GlobalDefinesAlt.xml, search for RANGE_COMBAT_XP_PERCENTAGE. Set it to 0. Should take care of it.

And I do not know...... the only units with access to that build order are Techpriests and Adeptus, which are UUs. I could understand if it was Decius, but not anyone else... Think I'll put a check in the canbuild python just to be positive.

On another note, I FINALLY found out how to set the music for each background... Turns out it's in the freaking artdefines. All of the backgrounds will now have the same music they have in FfH... I prefer it to the same thing on all of them.

 

[Milaga]

Ouch. Luckily, this is a question I can answer..... in GlobalDefinesAlt.xml, search for RANGE_COMBAT_XP_PERCENTAGE. Set it to 0. Should take care of it.

Great thanks! I'm going to disable it until the ranged combat problems get resolved.

 

[Opera]

I wouldn't be surprised if eventually, an all-Golem civ shows up. Or at least, something along those lines.

Thinking about that...

Spoiler :

Actually, I was thinking about that for a something else than Civ, where people are using machines to fight in and where, after a contingent of those mechas were slain, it raised again but with all pilots dead. I guess that was (again) Skynet.

But I thought of doing this in civilization too. Basically, they would be fallow and would only gain population by doing rituals (or casting spells, I don't know yet, depends on balance). I have a few ideas left... and that civ was the one I had in mind when I talked about my nuker-goliath.