Fall Further - The Original Thread

[MagisterCultuum]

You could set poison resistance (or a new promotion giving full immunity to poison, and possibly other effects as well) as their default race pretty easily.

 

[Vehem]

You could set poison resistance (or a new promotion giving full immunity to poison, and possibly other effects as well) as their default race pretty easily.

Aye - that would likely be the best way to do it. I think I'll stick to resistance for now - strictly only the more "advanced mutants" (Chosen, Spiderkin and such) would be immune and I may find an alternate method to represent that at some point.

 

[Ringtailed]

I just played a game with Cualli where I built a city in the jungle next to some gems. But I didn't have Mining yet and by the time I got it, a Swamp appeared :\

IMO, Cualli workers should get Scorch or at least some way to get rid of Swamps. Maybe they shouldn't get the ability to create Swamp like Mazatl do, but it sucks to have Swamps appear where you'd rather have something else and not be able to get rid of them.

Also, I'm finding that Cualli have massive happiness problems. No religion, no Lost Lands, and Swamps growing over your gems make playing Cualli difficult. Grigori have the same problem (though without the swamps ), but they have the option of using adventurers to smash other civs and take their happiness resources...

In fact, IMO they're underpowered in general. They should get something to compensate for lack of religion.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

IMO, Cualli workers should get Scorch or at least some way to get rid of Swamps. Maybe they shouldn't get the ability to create Swamp like Mazatl do, but it sucks to have Swamps appear where you'd rather have something else and not be able to get rid of them.

I still agree with this

Also, I'm finding that Cualli have massive happiness problems. No religion, no Lost Lands, and Swamps growing over your gems make playing Cualli difficult. Grigori have the same problem (though without the swamps ), but they have the option of using adventurers to smash other civs and take their happiness resources...

thats why you cull the unhappy population to boost building production i honestly didnt have much of a problem with happyness in my cualli games

 

[Vehem]

I just played a game with Cualli where I built a city in the jungle next to some gems. But I didn't have Mining yet and by the time I got it, a Swamp appeared :\

Are you using the patched version of 020? There is a check in place that should prevent swamp naturally appearing on resources.

		if iTerrain == iWetland :
			if iImprovement == -1 and iBonus == -1:
				iChance = iSwampChance

It shouldn't be possible for swamps to overrun a gem-deposit (or any other resource), unless they are created using Spring. I've also just checked using a swampChance of 100% - every wetland tile in my territory except those containing resources (including a gem resource) gained a swamp - the resource tiles stayed swamp-free, as intended.

Also, I'm finding that Cualli have massive happiness problems. No religion, no Lost Lands, and Swamps growing over your gems make playing Cualli difficult. Grigori have the same problem (though without the swamps ), but they have the option of using adventurers to smash other civs and take their happiness resources...

Happy citizens? Who cares about those... Whip them! Whip them good!

Seriously though - the Cualli are able to use population rushing (slavery) from the start (their unique Civic is definitely aimed at the early game) - this can produce a very significant "normal-army" very quickly (at least as potent as a couple of early adventurers if you do it right). Population regrowth is aided by swampland, especially with Tracking. An early flow of units against a neighbour should remove at least one rival and give you space to expand (again, by whipping up some settlers). They're actually my preferred race out of the new set recently, due to the simple brutality of their early-game (I always liked Doviello too for the same reason). It is mostly wasted on an islands map mind you, but the whipped-settlers/whipped-buildings are still useful.

If you choose not to make use of the slavery, they do lack any particular power in the early game, though their high-end units are still amongst the most dangerous available.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

Seriously though - the Cualli are able to use population rushing (slavery) from the start (their unique Civic is definitely aimed at the early game) - this can produce a very significant "normal-army" very quickly (at least as potent as a couple of early adventurers if you do it right). Population regrowth is aided by swampland, especially with Tracking. An early flow of units against a neighbour should remove at least one rival and give you space to expand (again, by whipping up some settlers). They're actually my preferred race out of the new set recently, due to the simple brutality of their early-game (I always liked Doviello too for the same reason). It is mostly wasted on an islands map mind you, but the whipped-settlers/whipped-buildings are still useful.

I completely agree. the Cualli, next to the Mazatl are my favourite civs in the entire game (including the original FfH civs) the swamps + Slavery from the start +sacrifial altar +their hero = unstoppable

 

[Ringtailed]

Hmm, I thought I had the patch installed. Maybe I screwed up somehow.

I've tried population rushing, but couldn't use it to any great effect. Without apprenticeship (you can't run it with the Cualli unique civic) your units' strength suffers anywhere from slightly to significantly depending on conditions. I'll give them another try, maybe without swamps growing over my happiness resources it'll be easier.

Still, I think Mazatl are a whole lot better. If you start near any decent amount of jungle you can rush straight to tracking and end up with 4-5 size 15-20 cities working 4/1/3 tiles by around turn 100 on normal speed. Supplement lack of whipping by building a cheaper unit and upgrading with gold thanks to Mazatl's high commerce income (example: hunters to rangers).

 

[Sarisin]

Another trail bug:
Continuing my Chislev' game, I capture a city from my Cualli neighbor and it is not possible to build roads over trails. Inside my ciltural borders it is also impossible to pillage trails (not sure if this is a bug or a feature).

Unfortunately, I believe it is a feature. I have asked many times why in FFH2 (maybe BtS too?) you can pillage any improvement EXCEPT roads. I never received a response, so I guess it is intended to be this way.

I don't like it when workers from civs I have Open Agreements with build roads within my borders, but it isn't possible to pillage the roads they built.

I suspect it is the same with trails, although I haven't tried it yet.

 

[Moos]

Patch C and I've found some more interesting bugs.
Hyborem comes at my Mazatl with Wyvern Guardians!

 

[Sarisin]

The one before did

Patch B - Stability/Odd Behaviour Fixes
1. Resolved issue with Professors, Wyvern Guardians, Coatlann and Miquiztli that may have caused CtD.
2. Balseraph no longer able to build Karrlson.
3. Jungle will no longer spread to peaks.
4. Absaroke can now correctly build Shrine of the Champion when Meskwaki dies.

OK, thanks, Vehem.

Could you confirm, then, that the most current version of your mod is 020c?

I want to start a game today with one of the new civs. Also, any plans to do another patch that might break saved games in the near future?

 

[Mailbox]

i get a crash at startup using patch C. the following errors were given:

tag FEATURE_DEEP_JUNGLE is incorrect (promotionsinfos)
same for Meswkaki in civilizationinfos
both in the xml files

I'm getting this same error, downloading using the patch given.

Edit: Scratch that, I installed it wrong. But on that note, I've noticed that jungle is growing in the borders of other civs while playing as the Mazatl.

 

[Slvynn]

We played yesterday MP.
Seems somewhat in Mazattl civ (dont sure about others), cause OOS, and then, we cant reestablish a game.
Vehem , i'd advice you to test MP for FF, there are wormhole of issues..

 

[bladios7]

I'm playing a game as the Calabim now and noticed that all the cities (at least the ones I've created and the ones I've taken from the barbs) have a trail instead of a road on the central city square. Thus my unit uses a whole movement point moving from the city square to the road just outside.

I was wondering why they seemed to take forever moving around...

 

[Vehem]

We played yesterday MP.
Seems somewhat in Mazattl civ (dont sure about others), cause OOS, and then, we cant reestablish a game.
Vehem , i'd advice you to test MP for FF, there are wormhole of issues..

MP-LAN is the way I normally play, so I've tried to make sure that I avoid any known OoS causing features (I spent a while trying to fix issues that the earlier versions of FfH had with OoS so I learnt where most of them are).

Do you know what happened at the time the problem occurred? Have you both quit the game and then reloaded/rejoined (I think there's an issue with basic FfH at the moment that means you can't re-enter a game in progress without causing a OoS - but reloading from the lobby works fine).

 

[woodelf]

Any thoughts Vehem to a chariot replacement for the lizzies?

Also, the Lanun have the ability to be the only civ to see pearls. Can the lizzies be given the same ability to see a new resource to replace horses so that their mounted line makes sense? Some 4-legged lizard or the dino they ride?

This is an idea that is deeper than this mod and would require python, but can be done since Belizan had it in SotM for a while...attrition. Could enemy (only while at war) units suffer damage while in marsh? I think the same should happen in vanilla FfH2 with desert tiles and the Malakin and forest tiles with elves. Is this more work than it would be worth?

 

[Vehem]

The list got to the point where it justifies a new Patch. I don't *think* it will break save games.

1. Unique Features cannot be destroyed by Swamp
2. Swamp cannot spread naturally to resources (double checked)
3. Infernals correctly blocked from building new unit types
4. Roads are now considered "higher level" than trails (will use Roads on City tiles)
5. Roads in Lizardman lands will degrade back to trails (Swamps require "Trail", not "Road" for commerce bonus)
6. Archos Units gain Poison Resistance by default
7. Swamp can no longer be spread to City squares

 

[Vehem]

Any thoughts Vehem to a chariot replacement for the lizzies?

Also, the Lanun have the ability to be the only civ to see pearls. Can the lizzies be given the same ability to see a new resource to replace horses so that their mounted line makes sense? Some 4-legged lizard or the dino they ride?

Not sure what exactly the lizards would develop in the way of chariots - Jungles don't really suit wheeled vehicles. It may be appropriate to remove them entirely.

This is an idea that is deeper than this mod and would require python, but can be done since Belizan had it in SotM for a while...attrition. Could enemy (only while at war) units suffer damage while in marsh? I think the same should happen in vanilla FfH2 with desert tiles and the Malakin and forest tiles with elves. Is this more work than it would be worth?

Could be done, though probably suits Hell Terrain better (or at least Hell Terrain with a sufficiently high Plot-count. Infernal Territories have Plot-count 100 permanently)

 

[woodelf]

Not sure what exactly the lizards would develop in the way of chariots - Jungles don't really suit wheeled vehicles. It may be appropriate to remove them entirely.

It almost sounds like the Construction tech is useless for these guys, Siege Workshops too. I agree that jungle, marsh is simply not condusive to developing these units.

Will they be severely hampered by this loss of siege units? Is there an alternative that makes sense? What would a lizard civ research in order to soften up a besieged city? Maybe a slow moving lizard armored to be a battering ram?

Also (again with the also), should any enemy wheeled unit be allowed access to deep jungle or marsh without a trail or road?

 

[Tarquelne]

Is there an alternative that makes sense? What would a lizard civ research in order to soften up a besieged city?

Historically it wasn't all that uncommon to construct siege units on-site.

The lizards might go in for sapping. Especially if they're good at working with water. A unit with bombard like a normal siege unit would probably reflect that fine.

Being from swamp/jungle terrain either poison or disease based-techniques might be available. That's more flavor, though: Again a bombard ability could be used.

 

[Vehem]

Historically it wasn't all that uncommon to construct siege units on-site.

The lizards might go in for sapping. Especially if they're good at working with water. A unit with bombard like a normal siege unit would probably reflect that fine.

Both true - and I like the idea of sappers. It's a little anachronistic, but a similar method was used during medieval warfare to bring down walls (sappers technically just allowed artillery close enough to bombard the walls whilst the older method involved destabilizing the wall at its base - they generally just called it "mining" or "undermining", but the intent was to deliberately collapse the tunnels rather than mine in the sense we know today)

Onagers or similar small siege weapons may be feasible as another alternative. These can be carried by a few lizards until they are in-place, then bombards in a similar manner to a catapult.