Fall Further - The Original Thread

[Psychic_Llamas]

i would immagine the mazatle flooding the foundations ofthe walls and makingthem crumble. magic would be the way to go

 

[Vehem]

i would immagine the mazatle flooding the foundations ofthe walls and makingthem crumble. magic would be the way to go

Now you've got me considering Lizardman Shapers (Mazatl Workers) as part of an upgrade route

Not sure what the AI would make of upgradeable workers, but I can investigate it.

 

[DuckAndCower]

This is an idea that is deeper than this mod and would require python, but can be done since Belizan had it in SotM for a while...attrition. Could enemy (only while at war) units suffer damage while in marsh? I think the same should happen in vanilla FfH2 with desert tiles and the Malakin and forest tiles with elves. Is this more work than it would be worth?

I read somewhere that this is what Entropy mana's effect was to be originally. I think the problem was that the AI would get damaged and then be stuck in place forever, trying to heal by fortifying.

 

[woodelf]

I read somewhere that this is what Entropy mana's effect was to be originally. I think the problem was that the AI would get damaged and then be stuck in place forever, trying to heal by fortifying.

When they explore they do that, but I've had stacks of units continue into my lands even if they are a bit wounded, I think. Most likely this is something that would be fun for the player and crippling for the AI.

 

[woodelf]

Now you've got me considering Lizardman Shapers (Mazatl Workers) as part of an upgrade route

Not sure what the AI would make of upgradeable workers, but I can investigate it.

I don't think workers that do anything except work are a good idea. The AI tend to let them defend instead of fleeing. I assume they'd need some combat ability to go after city defenses.

Side note - Any thought to removing cultural defenses altogether in your modmod. I understand what they are supposed to represent, but would rather see physical barriers causing +X% bonuses and not simply culture. Why would culture increase your willingness to fight for your city? Not likely.

And with solid defensive barriers you could then use magic to soften walls or make bombardment more realistic.

 

[thewyrm]

Side note - Any thought to removing cultural defenses altogether in your modmod. I understand what they are supposed to represent, but would rather see physical barriers causing +X% bonuses and not simply culture. Why would culture increase your willingness to fight for your city? Not likely.

And with solid defensive barriers you could then use magic to soften walls or make bombardment more realistic.

You mean that you believe for example the French would fight just as hard to protect Lyons as they would to protect Paris? Unlikely. Culture plays a huge role in what cities a nation will choose to defend.

 

[woodelf]

I think you would defend Paris more strongly than Lyons to begin with, but don't agree culture plays into it as a fudge factor. People will defend their homes no matter what.

Maybe a different solution would be factoring population into city defenses?

 

[MagisterCultuum]

In my modmod I plan to greatly reduce cultural defense, perhaos eliminating it from all but the highest culture level cities.


I would also like to see about incorporating something like the option in in snarko's old options mod, where the building and cultural defenses were multiplied together.

 

[woodelf]

That makes sense and after thinking about it thewyrm makes sense to a point as well.

I think I'd rather see building defenses be worth more. Maybe making the culture go from 0-5-10-20-60 instead of 0-20-40-60-80 and also have the walls, castles, ect either stack or gain some oomph.

 

[kenken244]

If morale were implemented, I would make culture only increase morale, as that seems to be what it represents.

 

[Vehem]

I don't think workers that do anything except work are a good idea. The AI tend to let them defend instead of fleeing. I assume they'd need some combat ability to go after city defenses.

Side note - Any thought to removing cultural defenses altogether in your modmod. I understand what they are supposed to represent, but would rather see physical barriers causing +X% bonuses and not simply culture. Why would culture increase your willingness to fight for your city? Not likely.

And with solid defensive barriers you could then use magic to soften walls or make bombardment more realistic.

Personally I'd love to rework how they're implemented and add some defensive structures for all civs. It wouldn't be a case of removing them, but combining their effect with the effect of physical defenses in a manner that doesn't make defenses overpowered. Specifically, I'd like to make Cultural Defense a bonus for those who emphasize developing culture - not just "something that happens after a while". Warmongers would be better off building themselves a Palisade/Walls.

The only issue would be that I'd be straying outside my self-imposed limits for the mod ("only those changes needed to implement the new civilizations"). That being said - for the moment, I've largely done adding any new civs (unless any spectacular idea grabs me), so work now is on developing the 5 and I guess modifying some other areas if there is demand.

Quick poll time - who'd rather see FF remain as purely "Civs Only", and who'd like to see a few other alterations? (I wouldn't be changing anything too drastically - but things like Cultural Defenses would be a good place to start).

 

[woodelf]

If morale were implemented, I would make culture only increase morale, as that seems to be what it represents.

I think WHFB tried morale, but I don't know how far they got. I agree that would be a better solution.

Or I wonder if you could add promotions (like defender) that would only work if you were protecting a highly cultural city. Might be too much micromanagement or trouble for the AI. And it might be more fun in theory than if implemented...

 

[woodelf]

I'd like to see you expand FF within your abilities by either adding new content or incorporating other mod components and modmods.

And culture defense is a great starting area.

 

[Ekolite]

I think some minor changes would be nice, although you should get FF players's opinions beforehand on what you plan to change. That's the reason i dont play magisters mod, a lot of the changes he's made i dont necessarilly like or agree with so i prefer vanilla FFH.

 

[woodelf]

Time for a modmod of the modmod.

 

[Vehem]

Just had a preliminary poke at it - by far the easiest way to solve a lot of the inconsistency would be with a single line DLL change.

	return ( (bIgnoreBuilding) ? 0 : getBuildingDefense()) + getNaturalDefense() + GET_PLAYER(getOwnerINLINE()).getCityDefenseModifier() ;

instead of

	return (std::max(((bIgnoreBuilding) ? 0 : getBuildingDefense()), getNaturalDefense()) + GET_PLAYER(getOwnerINLINE()).getCityDefenseModifier());

I just compiled a DLL with that change in and the bonuses stack fine now (80% Cultural Defence from 5000 Culture + 25% Building Defence from walls gave a total of 105% defence). It will also work correctly when Gunpowder Units (or rather - units that have "IgnoreBuildingDefense" set) attack it.

Of course - that means DLL changes, which means maintenance headaches - but it really does seem very simple to make it do what most people think it should do in the first place.

EDIT: And as a complete aside, I'd fight to defend Lyon in preference to Paris. The food is great there

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Personally think that Homeland should give a bonus equal to that players percent of the culture on the tile instead of within their borders. That way they would be better at retaking their old lands, but not as good as good at defending there most recent settlements or recently captured cities. This would encourage them to play more pacifistically, and seems to fit better thematically.

I also think that you should be able to found cities in rival territory (an act of war), but that without changing Homeland it would be too exploitive.

 

[woodelf]

That's cool Vehem, but do you plan on making culture % changes for the points? Will you shrink the % each level gives?

 

[woodelf]

Personally think that Homeland should give a bonus equal to that players percent of the culture on the tile instead of within their borders. That way they would be better at retaking their old lands, but not as good as good at defending there most recent settlements. I also think that you should be able to found cities in rival territory (an act of war), but that without changing Homeland it would be too exploitive.

How much work would it entail to make this possible?

 

[Vehem]

That's cool Vehem, but do you plan on making culture % changes for the points? Will you shrink the % each level gives?

I would do, aye - but mostly because I'd also like to readd some of the defensive buildings (Castles) and some additional ones (Palisades). The numbers you suggested in a previous post sounded about right, though I'd probably make it 0 for the first few expansions, then 10, 20, 40 (would have to look at the effort required to move between each culture level and balance it against that).

I've actually just PM'd Kael to plead the case for the DLL part of the change being included into the main-mod DLL - I can't see it being unpopular with anyone really, as anyone who has commented on it seemed surprised that it didn't stack anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagisterCultuum View Post
Personally think that Homeland should give a bonus equal to that players percent of the culture on the tile instead of within their borders. That way they would be better at retaking their old lands, but not as good as good at defending there most recent settlements. I also think that you should be able to found cities in rival territory (an act of war), but that without changing Homeland it would be too exploitive.
How much work would it entail to make this possible?

With a DLL change, not too much. Otherwise it'd be pretty tricky.