Fall Further - The Original Thread

[Grunthex]

Maybe I'm doing something wrong but somehow I have never ever seen any swamps in Fall Further. I'm using the creation map script and playing as the lizards - and I'm often in jungles. Do swamps just show up naturally or do I need to do something to get them to happen? Sorry about the stupid question!

I just downloaded this myself (great work Vehem!), and from what I can tell, any grassland (the underlying terrain for almost all jungles) in your cultural borders can over time become Wetlands. Then, if the jungle is unimproved (might be okay if it has a trail on it), it can get a swamp added to the jungle. Or, if you are the Mazatl, your workers can cast Spring on a wetlands Jungle to add a swamp.

I'm a bit curious how jungle grows/spreads once you leave your starting area. Those other civs you stomp always cut down all their jungle, how do I grow it back!

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

the jungle spread rate in mazatl and cualli lands is increased i think, especially on grassland/wetland/swamp. so it should spread automatically unless im mistaken

 

[Demus]

besides that, forests tend to work almost just as well as deep jungles (you can still put swamps under them), you're just missing out on the combat bonus

 

[Grunthex]

Ah, didn't know that about the forests .. but even if the spread is increased, a tile still has to be bare, next to jungle to have even a chance to spread right?

Couple of other quick comments from my Mazatl game.

Priests of Kalshekk should get Spiritual Hammer per the description in the pedia. They get stoneskin instead (boo!)
Swamps are indestructible. My shapers can't cut down jungle, and you can't seem to scorch away wetlands if there's swamp on it (will test to make sure swamp clears OTHER wetlands)
Jav throwers don't require archery ranges?
The extra swamp food at Feral Bond just seems over the top. I mean, they're amazing already.
Priests of Omorr in the description should get Sanctify, Floating Eye, and Spirit Guide. They also get Cure Disease (which is good) but also charm person and dispel magic! Given you normally need a metamagic node (sorcery) plus a mage with 2 slots in there, those seem out of place.

 

[Dogfax]

How good is this modmod?? thnx for a great weekend in charge of the Archos!

 

[Vehem]

the jungle spread rate in mazatl and cualli lands is increased i think, especially on grassland/wetland/swamp. so it should spread automatically unless im mistaken

Forests also tend to become Jungle if the underlying terrain becomes Wetland.
There is a very small chance that a plains tile will become grassland, and from there can become wetland.

All chances to change to wetlands are increased in tiles adjacent to rivers.

Hills cannot become wetland.

Priests of Kalshekk should get Spiritual Hammer per the description in the pedia. They get stoneskin instead (boo!)
Swamps are indestructible. My shapers can't cut down jungle, and you can't seem to scorch away wetlands if there's swamp on it (will test to make sure swamp clears OTHER wetlands)
Jav throwers don't require archery ranges?
The extra swamp food at Feral Bond just seems over the top. I mean, they're amazing already.

Just checked on the Priests and Kalshekk and you're right. Spiritual Hammer was readded as a Kalshekk unit spell if you check the 'pedia, but one of the other prereqs must be wrong. I'll check on Swamps/Scorch - it was working fine before 031 but something may have gone awry during that merge. Jav Throwers don't need archery ranges - as intended. Food-issues for Swamp (especially with Mazatl) are being looked at.

All of these will hopefully be sorted in the next patch.

 

[Grunthex]

I edited this into my post, but then saw that you'd already replied, so to make sure you don't have to double back:

Priests of Omorr in the description should get Sanctify, Floating Eye, and Spirit Guide. They also get Cure Disease (which is good) but also charm person and dispel magic! Given you normally need a metamagic node (sorcery) plus a mage with 2 slots in there, those seem out of place.

 

[Vehem]

I edited this into my post, but then saw that you'd already replied, so to make sure you don't have to double back:

Priests of Omorr in the description should get Sanctify, Floating Eye, and Spirit Guide. They also get Cure Disease (which is good) but also charm person and dispel magic! Given you normally need a metamagic node (sorcery) plus a mage with 2 slots in there, those seem out of place.

Aye - they're going to need a rework after the spell system changes. I've just played around with possible combinations and there's no way to get the spells I originally had planned for them without gaining additional spells. At the moment - the best I can do is Sanctify and Floating Eye, but I would like them to have Cure Disease as well and that's causing trouble.

I'll probably end up adding an "Omorr-only Spell" as I did with the Priests of Kalshekk when I readded Transmute and Spiritual Hammer just for them. Possibly one that combines the hell-busting effect of Sanctify with Cure Disease - "Purify" or similar.

In the meantime though, I've bundled the two "quick fixes" (Scorch and Spiritual Hammer) and will add those as Patch A to the first post.

 

[Vehem]

Patch A
1. Fixed Prereqs for Spiritual Hammer on Priests of Kalshekk
2. Fixed Scorch behaviour (was previously checking requirements but producing no effect on Wetland/Swamp)

Link on first page as normal.

 

[GhostQ]

Vehem I believe there's a little something you missed. When I was playing with the Lizzie civs I discovered that their priests can cast Shield of Faith. I was wondering how that could happen then I realised about the religion effect. When I have a city with RoK religion there's a chance that the units in it can be created with RoK as its religion, normally that doesn't do anything but for Priests of Omorr etc. it does add the Shield of Faith spell as they are priests. I assume we haven't had this in FfH because the only agnostic civ doesn't have Disciple units.

 

[BeefontheBone]

Shield of (Lack of) Faith? Like wandering round with a copy of The God Delusion sticking out of your bag so religious nutters don't bother you.

In the middle of a game with the Archos, and having built my economy back up from having to run 0% science (though with a few specialists) I have this to say: Mother is one scary beast. And as an added bonus, the combat messages say things like "Your Mother killed a Ljosalfar Archer" - it's now impossible for me to read those without replacing the first bit with "Yo Mama" in my head. Heh.

 

[Wyrmhero]

I kinda think the Archos aren't really as good as other Civs... Having only played one game as a barbarian trait leader, I think they should have a third trait, as if you loose the barbarian alliance, not only do you still keep the 10% , but you've effectively lost a trait, making you a weaker, evil Elohim... Although, I suppose the capital may make up for this... I don't know... Maybe they should have Expansive(to help city growth)

 

[Rothos]

I recently got a CTD playing with the Dural on a Duel map when I was just about to found Runes of Kilomorph. The program version was latest version of FFH and your modmod installed.

Thank you for your time

 

[Calbrenar]

I'm guessing that OOS errors within the first 1-2 turns point to improper installations? I'm not sure how they could be screwed up though (30K) Copy .30K to new dir. Rename Fall Further. overwrite assets / overwrite assets?

 

[Vehem]

I recently got a CTD playing with the Dural on a Duel map when I was just about to found Runes of Kilomorph. The program version was latest version of FFH and your modmod installed.

Thank you for your time

Was it recoverable after an autosave? If it's recurring, can you post the save and I'll take a look.

I'm guessing that OOS errors within the first 1-2 turns point to improper installations? I'm not sure how they could be screwed up though (30K) Copy .30K to new dir. Rename Fall Further. overwrite assets / overwrite assets?

Not sure where the problem lies here. You mentioned in an earlier post that you were having difficulties with 031 (OoS and CtD) but I've played a fair amount of multiplayer with 031 (with and without FF) and I haven't run into anything that sounds like the problems you've mentioned. It now seems that the same issue is occurring with 030k. Is there any issue playing non-FfH based multiplayer? (for the sake of elimination)

 

[BeefontheBone]

I kinda think the Archos aren't really as good as other Civs... Having only played one game as a barbarian trait leader, I think they should have a third trait, as if you loose the barbarian alliance, not only do you still keep the 10% , but you've effectively lost a trait, making you a weaker, evil Elohim... Although, I suppose the capital may make up for this... I don't know... Maybe they should have Expansive(to help city growth)

Unlike the other Barb trait leaders, they start a little slow, but their late recon units are good, the early melee poison strength is handy if you can stay ahead of your enemy's metal upgrades, and the spiders are very nice for harrassing your neighbours. I'm using strong ones to clear out the Clan's stacks of units before I declare war on them in my current game. Mother is extremely powerful (Cannibalize plus Orthus' Axe and March is a nice combination for her ) Haruspexes are also really nice. I'm liking the way that having lots of Chaos mana (and mutate as a spell) lets me build a bunch of units then upgrade the ones with good mutations (a bunch of resistances, Heroic Strength and Regeneration? Yum!) into National units to maximise the benefit. As a nice tip (which will also work for vanilla civs), upgrading your priests into Druids will keep their religion, giving the druid the religious spell - Bloom for FoL, but you could get more combat-useful ones by upgrading priests of the Veil and things.

 

[Vehem]

Unlike the other Barb trait leaders, they start a little slow, but their late recon units are good, the early melee poison strength is handy if you can stay ahead of your enemy's metal upgrades, and the spiders are very nice for harrassing your neighbours. I'm using strong ones to clear out the Clan's stacks of units before I declare war on them in my current game. Mother is extremely powerful (Cannibalize plus Orthus' Axe and March is a nice combination for her ) Haruspexes are also really nice. I'm liking the way that having lots of Chaos manner (and mutate as a spell) lets me build a bunch of units then upgrade the ones with good mutations (a bunch of resistances, Heroic Strength and Regeneration? Yum!) into National units to maximise the benefit. As a nice tip (which will also work for vanilla civs), upgrading your priests into Druids will keep their religion, giving the druid the religious spell - Bloom for FoL, but you could get more combat-useful ones by upgrading priests of the Veil and things.

I'd have to agree pretty much with everything BotB said. They're an unusual Barbarian as they don't "start strong" as such, but they do grow more powerful as time progresses. They're also a much more "subtle" civ than the other barbarians - with some very nice synergies (most of which BotB mentioned) if you play to make the most of them.

The other reason that I can't really see them as being "weak" is that the AI seems to do very well with them. Daracaat is an aggressive nutjob to put it bluntly - and he tends to build up quite an empire for himself in the first half of the game. The AI isn't quite so good with the later units (especially Haruspex), but they generally run around with Spiderkin and Mother causing quite a bit of havoc.

They were actually the first of the original three that I completed and I spent quite a bit of time playing as them. Definitely one of my personal favourites.

 

[Dogfax]

Im just getting to tuen 1000 on an epic game playing the Archos, and it has been one of the best games ever.. The Archos do have to be played very diff to other civs but that makes them interesting.. The hidden nationality spiders can be easily beefed up by picking on your enemys border troops until powerful enough to wander around freely. Keeps ya enemys weak until Mother arrives.. lol!

Got to feel sorry for the Clan in my game.. I have got Mother, and a captured Acheron (the big red dragon thang) battering them into submission.. the command promotion is a wonderful thing indeed!!

 

[Slvynn]

Hello again, was bit busy (i have alot alot of job and not much time to rest), this weekend i will be able to continue with work on leaderheads.
hope next monday will post some results...

about Archos - believe me they are very powerfull civ. you should use all strategies described above + 1 that wasnt = Nature's Revolt ritual and megaupgraded (from former leveled hunstmans) recluses.
Last time i played with archos my mother, lvl 8+ spiders, harsupex, stooges and bunch of FoL heroes was supported by 10 bears str 7 `, bunch of tigers str 6, swarm of lions str 5 . Mother , stooges (they are Animal class unit btw), all spiders + 2 str.

Also - technique to level your spiders.
Fortify them in border cities. Sign alot of Open borders pacts, and then watch how all passing by neighbour units feed spiders. AWESOME way to level them, i'd say

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

about Archos - believe me they are very powerfull civ. you should use all strategies described above + 1 that wasnt = Nature's Revolt ritual and megaupgraded (from former leveled hunstmans) recluses.
Last time i played with archos my mother, lvl 8+ spiders, harsupex, stooges and bunch of FoL heroes was supported by 10 bears str 7 `, bunch of tigers str 6, swarm of lions str 5 . Mother , stooges (they are Animal class unit btw), all spiders + 2 str.

Also - technique to level your spiders.
Fortify them in border cities. Sign alot of Open borders pacts, and then watch how all passing by neighbour units feed spiders. AWESOME way to level them, i'd say

ill second all this, Archos is extremely powerful when used correctly, and the openborders spider training is actually one of my favourite tricks another is to plop you giant spiders in a civs borders and eat all their workers, and when the opportunity arrises attack a military unit. i found the AI never once attacked my giant spiders. also, blitz on Mother is awsome