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Fall Patch changes discussion thread

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Tinker, Oct 1, 2013.

  1. Tinker

    Tinker Prince

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    As the sticky is for bug reports only, I figured a thread for the discussions for the actual intended changes would be great.

     
  2. Gort

    Gort Emperor

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    No balance changes on Tradition, Rationalism or Consulates is a bit disappointing.
     
  3. DemonMaster

    DemonMaster A.K.A. Fenhorn

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    What balance where you hoping for?
     
  4. Gort

    Gort Emperor

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    Nerfs to all three, to be honest. They're all massive no-brainers. You can chuck Treaty Organisation into the mix as well as another one that needs a nerf.

    I suppose they're going after Arsenal of Democracy, so thumbs up there.
     
  5. Talcove

    Talcove Slayer of Spies

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    The UU to UB change for Germany is good - it removes a bland/generic UU that cost 50% less hammers than it's regular counterpart, and replaced it with a bank which can provide a serious production boost to all units and buildings - but that won't be enough to save Germany. The main criticism of Germany was towards it's UA, not it's UU, and for the most part it's UA is still the same. It carries a high chance to convert barbs and get gold, but it's still only a chance, and at something which really isn't all that appealing to begin with.

    The change to Japan, while I haven't tried it out yet, seems laughably minor. I remember them saying that the change would reflect Japan's isolationist culture, while they may be able to earn a little bit more culture than usual, I really don't see the association. Now, Japan is the civ which would have benefited from a UU change. Even with the changes to flight, and it not requiring oil I don't see the Zero being taken seriously. In fact, I see it being taken less seriously. So it doesn't require Oil, but who wants to waste the now limited space for a fighter when you could have a bomber?

    The changes to the Great Works, Archaeology, and hidden sites seem like a plus. More works is always good, and giving something to those hidden sites to make them somewhat better than the regular sites is really nifty.
     
  6. brindle

    brindle Chieftain

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    it's not consulates that need nerf. it is that pledge to protect needs to be completely removed (at least the + to CS influence from it). it is especially ridiculous in MP games where PtoP + Consulates == every CS on map as friend with HUGE bonuses.
     
  7. Matthew.

    Matthew. Deity

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    Rationalism was already nerfed. I rarely go full Rationalism anymore, except perhaps in the very late game and if I have extra culture.

    All that needs to be done with Tradition is move the Great Engineers to Liberty. The two trees were already competitive (check all those voting threads, generally trails just slightly behind). Giving GE's to Liberty and not to Tradition would give Liberty the slight boost it needs really be competitive.
     
  8. MadDjinn

    MadDjinn Deity

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    to be more accurate, please use the CFC bug forum to report bugs about the beta patch.

    They are being watched and will get timely responses (provided you provide real information, including saves, dxdiag's, etc).
     
  9. Byzantine Bomb

    Byzantine Bomb Warlord

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    "Warmonger penalty for conquering a city is now halved with other civs that are also at war with the civ being conquered."

    Huzzah!
     
  10. El Caballerion

    El Caballerion King

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    How does a Samurai build a boat? How long does it take? Does it require resources?

    I assume that a Samurai doesn't merely just build a fishing boat at a shore (like a Praetorian building a road), but must embark onto the fishing site in question and build from there? If not, then what's to prevent Japan from building like a hundred fishing ships for no real reason?
     
  11. pthmix

    pthmix Warlord

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    I'm torn. They did add a few things (conquest bonus when you are influential...) which I did not expect. Sadly, they did not really adress Piety and honor.

    Although I love that the AI will come to you and offer to buy your luxuries.
     
  12. Lord Xavius

    Lord Xavius Mostly Lurking

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    Wow, lots of fun stuff. The new tourism boosts look delicious, I seem to recall tourism only being good for a culture victory being a common complaint. The Hanse bank for Germany is a neat idea, but I agree that Japan could use something other than a fixation with fishing boats.

    On another note, "Vilnius, Bogota and Wellington, one of each type"? Last I checked there were five kinds of city-states, but I'm guessing they mean Cultured, Mercantile, and Maritime the three that were in vanilla.

    Dennis answered in the other thread that "Your Samurai embarks, moves to an improvable sea resource, and then a worker action appears allowing you to create a fishing boat. You can do this with as many sea resources as you have within your borders."
     
  13. Kintara

    Kintara Warlord

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    Just use Carriers if you're that rich with Oil. I like the idea of having plenty of Oil left for Battleships, or Tanks.
     
  14. El Caballerion

    El Caballerion King

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    Ah, so one Samurai can essentially create an infinite amount of fishing boats on fish/water luxuries in your territory then. Seems interesting, though comes a bit late, and really not at all what the Samurai are known for lol. :crazyeye::crazyeye::crazyeye:
     
  15. Matthew.

    Matthew. Deity

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    Germany's UA is fine. It was okay before, but now with 67% convert it is more reliable. It's just that some people don't get basic math. Any other Civ with 7 composite bows and 1 random melee compared to Germany with 7 composite bows and 3 random melee, pays the same amount of unit maintenance, gets more ZOC, and doesn't need to waste any hammers getting it. And this is assuming none of the barb camps spawn archers, in which case it means even more gold/hammers saved. Get lucky with lots of camps and you can war your neighbor aggressively, even lose some units, and never come out behind (meanwhile opponent losing units is lost gold/hammers).

    Landsknecht were always a mixed bag, especially since G&K. Will need to play around with the new Hanse to see how the changes work. Banks come late, but the hammer bonus is pretty significant. Yeah, Panzer is late-game and that always gets points taken away, but what ya gonna do? Modern Germany is, well, modern.

    As for Japan... still not sure. In a round-about way, Samurai building fishing boats is okay. I mean, for starts that get several sea luxuries that does free up a lot of hammers while simultaneously boosting military. But if there are no sea luxuries near, then the bonus becomes worthless real quick.

    Zero is improved. Not needing oil means you don't need to sacrifice any bombers or tanks to add fighters to your army.

    Changes to Japan are marginal at best. I would have preferred something more reliable (depending on sea luxuries is depending on RNG map).
     
  16. Talcove

    Talcove Slayer of Spies

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    You actually do sacrifice bombers. Since, until airports, you can only have six air units per city, and ten with airports, building a zero means that you lose a slot that could have been used for a bomber.

    THE SAMURAI ARE COMING!!!... To plow our fields and catch our fish! How swell of them!
     
  17. El Caballerion

    El Caballerion King

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    Also, in regard to Japan, they still KEEP their current UA, correct? The whole Samurai fish thing and additional culture are added on, right?
     
  18. Brevity

    Brevity Chieftain

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    They probably build the improvement directly on the tile (embarked) since it's a fishing boat (tile improvement name) and not a work boat (unit name). Even if that is the case though, how long does it take them to do it is still a pertinent question. If it's instantaneous like a work boat would it expend all the remaining movement points of the Samurai, or even (gasp) expend the Samurai itself?

    Sounds like an incredibly niche ability, maybe something you'd use after some rude neighbor or barb went on a pillaging spree on your sea resources. Its not like having unimproved sea resources that late into the game are all too common, outside of having your stuff pillaged or perhaps a late expansion or border pop.

    Altogether very strange and seemingly marginal improvements to Japan, I'm hesitant to write the changes off completely. I still can't imagine them being that much better in practice though. The fishing boat culture is "ok." The atoll culture could be great, but really how often do you get those in your starting territory, even with an ocean bias?
     
  19. ddd123

    ddd123 Prince

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    japan changes are pretty ridicolous

    lets start with samurai bonus that is quite bad, why on earth would you want to spend a samurai to build when he is supposed to fight? if you dont need it to fight, then its much faster to buidl boats around

    also it punches with the other change
    the culture bonus for maritime tiles is good but why on eart then put another bonus that makes you build SLOWER (if you use samurais you will save some production/gold but you will get your boats later) and so making the first bonus even less good

    since sea tiles are so good i want them asap
     
  20. Light Cleric

    Light Cleric ElCee/LC/El Cid

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    I wish Workers could do the Samurai thing with Fishing Boats :( It would make costal starts so much less annoying
     

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