Fall Patch changes discussion thread

[kaspergm]

I think one way to help with this problem is to fix great scientist strength to the time that they're born, like great musicians. Sure, you can save that medieval scientist all the way to the information era. But he's still only going to give you 800 beakers of the 15,000 beakers you need for Satellites.

I and several others have been advocating for this over at the Firaxis forum also. I think the idea that you can keep a Great Person around for hundreds of years is bad both from a gameplay and realism perspective exactly for the reasons discussed here. Same goes for Great Engineers, btw. - saving them up for key wonders is a bit of a game killer, but obviously I do it myself all the time.

I would even go as far as suggested a time-limit on how long you can have a GP before you have to use it if not for the fact that this would add a lot of micromanagement because people will then only spawn them at the good times, so that will not make game better. But the fixed strength to birth time seems like a perfect solution.

 

[PrimoXanthous]

Germany seems a very competitive civ right now with this Patch, but Japan..well IMO this Civ still a UP, yes the trait gives you culture on Fishing boats and atolls but how many sea resources you usually got when founding your Capital? 2? 3? lucky if you have 4 or 5. and the atolls, well its less likely sea features you could encounter in your start. The Samurai's new build which allow it to build fishing boats is good, but will you wait to research steel to have your samurai build those fishing boats? usually that you build those improvement when you finish building granary, shrine, watermill , some units and wonders. Also this would allow AI Japan found Cities near atolls and sea resources which for sure is far aways from thier Capital, this would make AI Japan weak, you know scattered Cities, Scattered Army, Scattered Force, Scattered Chance of being a Competent Civ.
The Zero's been improved with this patch but still, its not a good UU, only in rare occasions you create an Army of Zero and most of the time its just there in your city intercepting enemy planes.
I love Japan, I love the color, the Samurai attack animation, the Bushido , but come on they deserved better.
I suggest a new UA, UB and some improvement.

some people before said that this is overpowered, but this one, i balance it a little.


UA: Sakoku or Isolation - In times of war Japan gains Gold half the amount of Food or Production from trade routes it sends within its Empire.(what i mean is, if Osaka send +8 production/food to Kyoto, an additional +4 gold also would be gain from it.) (Who cares if you embargo me??)
And if you think it would be overpowered trade routes, maybe Japan could create only half the available number of trade routes to be its internal trade routes. Also in times of war all Caravans, Cargo ship Japan send to other Civ/CS will be brought back to its origin City.

UU: Samurai - Replace Longswordsman, same but improve
promotion: Great Generals II, Bushido(unit fight as full strength even though when damage)
(the Bushido is been removed as UA but it still there in presence of Samurai, just like what happen to France in BNW)

UB: Dojo - Replace Barracks
Gains (x) amount of culture everytime a unit is been trained/built in a city where the Dojo is present.

(x) = Trained unit's combat strength
ex. Warrior
8
gain culture would be 8

or if overpowered, . .
(x) = Trained unit's combat strength / 2
ex. Warrior
8
gain culture when trained 4


This would make Japan a real warmongering Civ while being cultural too.

 

[EgyptRaider]

Germany seems a very competitive civ right now with this Patch, but Japan..well IMO this Civ still a UP, yes the trait gives you culture on Fishing boats and atolls but how many sea resources you usually got when founding your Capital? 2? 3? lucky if you have 4 or 5. and the atolls, well its less likely sea features you could encounter in your start. The Samurai's new build which allow it to build fishing boats is good, but will you wait to research steel to have your samurai build those fishing boats? usually that you build those improvement when you finish building granary, shrine, watermill , some units and wonders. Also this would allow AI Japan found Cities near atolls and sea resources which for sure is far aways from thier Capital, this would make AI Japan weak, you know scattered Cities, Scattered Army, Scattered Force, Scattered Chance of being a Competent Civ.
The Zero's been improved with this patch but still, its not a good UU, only in rare occasions you create an Army of Zero and most of the time its just there in your city intercepting enemy planes.
I love Japan, I love the color, the Samurai attack animation, the Bushido , but come on they deserved better.
I suggest a new UA, UB and some improvement.

some people before said that this is overpowered, but this one, i balance it a little.


UA: Sakoku or Isolation - In times of war Japan gains Gold half the amount of Food or Production from trade routes it sends within its Empire.(what i mean is, if Osaka send +8 production/food to Kyoto, an additional +4 gold also would be gain from it.) (Who cares if you embargo me??)
And if you think it would be overpowered trade routes, maybe Japan could create only half the available number of trade routes to be its internal trade routes. Also in times of war all Caravans, Cargo ship Japan send to other Civ/CS will be brought back to its origin City.

UU: Samurai - Replace Longswordsman, same but improve
promotion: Great Generals II, Bushido(unit fight as full strength even though when damage)
(the Bushido is been removed as UA but it still there in presence of Samurai, just like what happen to France in BNW)

UB: Dojo - Replace Barracks
Gains (x) amount of culture everytime a unit is been trained/built in a city where the Dojo is present.

(x) = Trained unit's combat strength
ex. Warrior
8
gain culture would be 8

or if overpowered, . .
(x) = Trained unit's combat strength / 2
ex. Warrior
8
gain culture when trained 4


This would make Japan a real warmongering Civ while being cultural too.

This sounds really cool and well thought out. Japan now seems a bit like a design mashup of stuff.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Germany seems a very competitive civ right now with this Patch, but Japan..well IMO this Civ still a UP, yes the trait gives you culture on Fishing boats and atolls but how many sea resources you usually got when founding your Capital? 2? 3? lucky if you have 4 or 5. and the atolls, well its less likely sea features you could encounter in your start. The Samurai's new build which allow it to build fishing boats is good, but will you wait to research steel to have your samurai build those fishing boats? usually that you build those improvement when you finish building granary, shrine, watermill , some units and wonders. Also this would allow AI Japan found Cities near atolls and sea resources which for sure is far aways from thier Capital, this would make AI Japan weak, you know scattered Cities, Scattered Army, Scattered Force, Scattered Chance of being a Competent Civ.
The Zero's been improved with this patch but still, its not a good UU, only in rare occasions you create an Army of Zero and most of the time its just there in your city intercepting enemy planes.
I love Japan, I love the color, the Samurai attack animation, the Bushido , but come on they deserved better.
I suggest a new UA, UB and some improvement.

some people before said that this is overpowered, but this one, i balance it a little.


UA: Sakoku or Isolation - In times of war Japan gains Gold half the amount of Food or Production from trade routes it sends within its Empire.(what i mean is, if Osaka send +8 production/food to Kyoto, an additional +4 gold also would be gain from it.) (Who cares if you embargo me??)
And if you think it would be overpowered trade routes, maybe Japan could create only half the available number of trade routes to be its internal trade routes. Also in times of war all Caravans, Cargo ship Japan send to other Civ/CS will be brought back to its origin City.

UU: Samurai - Replace Longswordsman, same but improve
promotion: Great Generals II, Bushido(unit fight as full strength even though when damage)
(the Bushido is been removed as UA but it still there in presence of Samurai, just like what happen to France in BNW)

UB: Dojo - Replace Barracks
Gains (x) amount of culture everytime a unit is been trained/built in a city where the Dojo is present.

(x) = Trained unit's combat strength
ex. Warrior
8
gain culture would be 8

or if overpowered, . .
(x) = Trained unit's combat strength / 2
ex. Warrior
8
gain culture when trained 4


This would make Japan a real warmongering Civ while being cultural too.

Actually, I recall a Dojo UB that gave culture from Iron & Horses. I think that would be cool.

Aussie.

 

[Viregel]

Well, I don't know if you are aware of the consequences of your proposal. If the first 3 cities would give, without restrictions, the 3+3 luxuries , then I would definitly apply the following warmonger strategy:
*Build as soon as possible 3 cities, the luxuries would compensate the unhappiness part
*trade away the copies for 15 gpt and maybe even 1 more luxury for a total of 20 gpt
*build many composite bowmen and some melee units (funding the unit upkeep with the trade income)
* attack (possibly together with some other civs for less warmonger penalty) and capture a capital located on a nice spot or which has build early wonders you want to have
* you eliminate/cripple a direct civ early on and can continue when the kriss swordmen come around for the 2nd wave

But back to reality, with the candi change you get 2 benefits from the UB. First is you can get 2 faith and +2 faith per religion with a follower in every city with candi. Second you can have the %25 modifier for great people generation in every city. I can imagine you can easily get an average of 2 religions per city for a total of 6 faith producing candi per turn. Compare the candi, producing 6 faith for 120 hammers which also provides great person generation modifier and is buildable in every city, with Stonehenge which just give 5 faith per turn for 185 hammers only in 1 city. Indonesia should definitly be played more religionbased now.

For your suggestion of changing the UA of Indonesia to something related to trade routes passing through their borders. Well it definitely is a good idea. But with the expansion already containing 3 civs (Venice, Portugal and Morocco) with a trade route related UA and Arabia's UA getting an overhaul trade route related, the chances were slim that they would introduce another civ with similar UA I think.

OK, fair enough, that would be overpowered. As for my new UA suggestion, I can't see it being implemented into the game, but a mod for it would be cool.

 

[PrimoXanthous]

Actually, I recall a Dojo UB that gave culture from Iron & Horses. I think that would be cool.

Aussie.

Actually I made a small Mod for Japan, i delete the Zero and Replaced it with Dojo
thought its not same as what i suggest here, If im just good at Lua Programming I will make this a MOD.

 

[pthmix]

Just finished a German Emperor game with the beta patch. Turns out it was my best game so far on BNW. Hanse seemed beastly, going into Industrial era with +30% base Hammers in each major city, in practice, is pretty insane. Also note that your Hanse cities give extra gold to AI routes which probably makes them priority for other civs. The bonus hammers made snapping up science buildings faster which may overall offset the loss of science trades down the line.

As for the increase barb conversion, I went 2/7 in total camp conversion rate... 7 does not a sample make, but I wasn't feeling a buff. Plus my first conversion put me over the unit limit so I just deleted the brute anyway.

Overall I felt Germany is about where they need to be. I think the Hanse synergizes well with Panzers, in that if you're warring you may need to look to CS allies anyway. And who doesn't want to build Panzers faster?

Very enjoyable game. I dig the new patch.

Looking forward to a city state/diplo nerf in the next patch though. I ended up winning World Leader well before Space Race was even an option.

I shall caveat the above by saying my start was nothing spectacular, although my success is probably linked to a better understanding of BNW and not solely due to Germany's advantages.

Keep in mind that there is a bug with the public beta (unless they have stealthily patched this) where the Hanse-(hate that name btw, Hanse is the institution, not the building)bonus is applied to food, hammers, gold and science.

 

[ollethegreat]

what are the new great works?

 

[Tibbz]

I think one way to help with this problem is to fix great scientist strength to the time that they're born, like great musicians. Sure, you can save that medieval scientist all the way to the information era. But he's still only going to give you 800 beakers of the 15,000 beakers you need for Satellites.

Ya I am surprised / disappointed that they did not fix this exploit.

I just smh at ppl pooling GS like this, makes science victory too easy. A handful of turns to go through the late-game techs is sort of a joke.

 

[Luckystrike77]

i totally disagree

800 anything is worth much more early than later, be that gold or resarch or other stuff
so keeping 800 research standing there for ages is a great price and you DESERVE it to be worth 15000

also im not sure its even worth, surely spending early those 800 you would snowball, getting more buildings/bonuses/tropps and so gaining in the long term much more than 15000

I can't agree to this. I would (in most cases) if you talked about any other ressource then science points (like production, money, culture or faith). Saving scientists are too often the best way to go. Here are some of the many reasons:

1) There is no point in rushing for techs you can't make use of right away anyways, because of your limited production capacity and money flow for rush buys and upgrades. Some crucial ones - to get a wonder or 3 factories first - are more worth it to get of course, but only if you have a realistic chance to pull off that wonder or 3 factories etc first.

2) In multiplayer games (where this problem is the hugest) it is seldom a good idea to reveal for everyone you are the tech leader. It will easely make the others look upon you as the greatest threath, and form alliances vs you. When it comes to SP I don't know if the AI is more aggressive vs the tech leader in some way or another.

3) If the resolution scientists in refugee is passed, it can be more benefitial waiting to use the scientists, and not be leading in tech.

4) Trade routes gives other civs more research then you get from them if you are too advanced.

5) You have nothing to loose from waiting and everything to gain, if there isn't vital to get a tech fast due to military treaths or lack of usefull buildings to build. A new social policy in rationalism (and some others too increasing research like the one in patronage), new tech buildings and the ability to later use more specialists as scientists will make the Great Scientists super powerfull. Their power is based on the last 8 turns of research. Science makes some big jumps at certain points in the game, and saving a scientists to be used after some of those great jumps might be a very good idea, and after Tech Labs it usually gets really crazy.

6) Being the tech leader works as a magnet on foreign spies. You will have to place your first spy to defend your best science city. If you are abit behind you can instead steal some tech yourself, or get a CS ally.

7) Going for scientist specialists first and foremost also helps alot in giving you a good tech rate in itself, and should give you lots of usefull things to build anyways, while waiting with your great scientists.

I think one way to help with this problem is to fix great scientist strength to the time that they're born, like great musicians. Sure, you can save that medieval scientist all the way to the information era. But he's still only going to give you 800 beakers of the 15,000 beakers you need for Satellites.

Totally agree! No more jumping over whole ages due to scientist saving, and totally non excistant end game counter victory strategies. The game would be alot more open and exciting in the end game.

It would also give players a better reason to settle their scientists on tiles for a change. At least the first ones you get. I'd think there was an intended trade off there in the first place, to make settling the scientist or not a real choice.

There is also a great people mechanism balancing problem now, when Great Scientist spamming is so incredible powerfull vs strategies arround other Great People that need specialist investment to spawn.

 

[TheHarshax]

Even with the changes to flight, and it not requiring oil I don't see the Zero being taken seriously. In fact, I see it being taken less seriously. So it doesn't require Oil, but who wants to waste the now limited space for a fighter when you could have a bomber?

Getting bombers requires you to research Biology and possibly Refrigeration which are expensive technologies to strive for when attempting a domination victory.

Researching Oil is the left side of the tech tree. Iron Working, Steel and the UU - Samurai are unlocked by technologies on the right side of the tech tree. This allows Japan to focus science on warfare technologies throughout the Ancient and Renaissance eras making them more effective in early domination strategies and possibly, the very early Industrial era. Japan will probably field Zeroes while other civilizations are still building triplanes and WWW I bombers.

Japan can make Zeroes without oil and this in turn will flavor Japan to be Isolationists on their own continent if she has not already dominated her region. If Japan has not dominated it's continent, it should focus science to achieve their UA, then proceed toward Flight and other Industrial military technologies without having to research technologies that let them explore beyond their continent.

You have to invest hundreds of bulbs to get to oil in order to build Zeroes without trade deals and diplomacy. These technologies also unlock compass, astrology, navigation, and archaeology which not only allow you to sail ships beyond your coast but also allows to build museums and archaeologists.

If Japan is attempting a domination victory, then their late game UU works will with their Medieval UU and might make them competitive for games in the Industrial era. It's a subtle bonus. I can't wait to see someone actually try it.

EDIT - I hope someone does a small continents game and posts screen shots of their samurai conquering cities then improving coastal improvements while they prepare for the next battle.

 

[ollethegreat]

this may be a stupid question
but will i be able to update today?

 

[TheHarshax]

this may be a stupid question
but will i be able to update today?

You have until 10/7

 

[Mudrac]

Just played Germany yesterday and came up with an idea for their UA. A little bit different one:

Blood and Iron:
Upon defeating a Barbarian unit inside an encampment, there is 70% chance you earn 25 Gold and they join your side. Pay 25% less for land unit maintenance. Quantity of Coal resources is doubled. Gain +2 in cities with a Factory. Railroads are built at half the usual time.

 

[TheHarshax]

Just played Germany yesterday and came up with an idea for their UA. A little bit different one:

Blood and Iron:
Upon defeating a Barbarian unit inside an encampment, there is 70% chance you earn 25 Gold and they join your side. Pay 25% less for land unit maintenance. Quantity of Coal resources is doubled. Gain +2 in cities with a Factory. Railroads are built at half the usual time.

Nice.

 

[ToodleElNoodos]

Way too much. You'll have to buff every single civ in the game, even the new civs.

For Japan, I still would've preferred that they gave a Great Art slot to the castle, and earn GPP when defeating an enemy unit.

 

[Mudrac]

The idea is also along with Hanse to present that Industrial side of Germany as well. To make it a pretty strong Production civ.

 

[Mudrac]

Way too much. You'll have to buff every single civ in the game, even the new civs.

For Japan, I still would've preferred that they gave a Great Art slot to the castle, and earn GPP when defeating an enemy unit.

Maybe we can cut off that 25% less land unit maintenance for Germany to make it more balanced.

As for Japan I had this idea I posted earlier in this tread, but no one said if it's either good or bad.. so I don't know:

UA:Bushido
Japan has a specific technology called Bushido which replaces Chivalry. Along with all the things Chivalry has it also gives all units Bushido Promotion and allows you to build Shogun's Castle. Fishing Boats provide +1 culture and atolls +2 culture.

UU:Samurai
Can build Fishing Boats. Has the same Combat Strength as Musketman and cannot upgrade to him. Becomes obsolete with Industrialization. Once you research Industrialization Samurai can become following Great Persons: Great Writer, Great Artist, Great Musician, Great Merchant or Great Engineer. But can do so only once. (Same as the Mayan UA, which means you must have 5 Samurai to get each Great Person).

UB:Shogun's Castle
Unique Japanese National Wonder. Requires Bushido technology to be build, as well to have built a Castle in every city. It can only be built in Capital City. It provides +15% Combat Strength to Capital, as well as +10% Combat Strength for units fighting in Friendly territory. It also provides +2 culture, +2 happiness and has 1 Free Slot for Great Work of Art or Artifact.

 

[otaman1]

Maybe we can cut off that 25% less land unit maintenance for Germany to make it more balanced.

As for Japan I had this idea I posted earlier in this tread, but no one said if it's either good or bad.. so I don't know:

UA:Bushido
Japan has a specific technology called Bushido which replaces Chivalry. Along with all the things Chivalry has it also gives all units Bushido Promotion and allows you to build Shogun's Castle. Fishing Boats provide +1 culture and atolls +2 culture.

UU:Samurai
Can build Fishing Boats. Has the same Combat Strength as Musketman and cannot upgrade to him. Becomes obsolete with Industrialization. Once you research Industrialization Samurai can become following Great Persons: Great Writer, Great Artist, Great Musician, Great Merchant or Great Engineer. But can do so only once. (Same as the Mayan UA, which means you must have 5 Samurai to get each Great Person).

UB:Shogun's Castle
Unique Japanese National Wonder. Requires Bushido technology to be build, as well to have built a Castle in every city. It can only be built in Capital City. It provides +15% Combat Strength to Capital, as well as +10% Combat Strength for units fighting in Friendly territory. It also provides +2 culture, +2 happiness and has 1 Free Slot for Great Work of Art or Artifact.

They'd have to keep the Zero in and make it available in some other form like the Foreign Legion in the Freedom tenet and the Landsknecht in the Commerce tree.

 

[Cicerosaurus]

what are the new great works?

I cracked one before in a hidden site in my territory. It was some sort of ancient writing and I could either get a Great Writer or a huge amount of culture- the capacity to set up a site was gone. It was interesting.

Also you can create a site anytime in the AI's land (with open borders) and get a permanent relationship boost.