Fall Patch changes discussion thread

[BasedGod]

UU:Samurai
Can build Fishing Boats. Has the same Combat Strength as Musketman and cannot upgrade to him. Becomes obsolete with Industrialization. Once you research Industrialization Samurai can become following Great Persons: Great Writer, Great Artist, Great Musician, Great Merchant or Great Engineer. But can do so only once. (Same as the Mayan UA, which means you must have 5 Samurai to get each Great Person).

Seems a little dumb that a combat unit that becomes a great person can't become a great general. Also the upgrade cost would have to be pretty damn expensive to balance this out

Also, with this change Japan become pretty much completely vanilla until you hit the unique tech, I know that the Mayan UA is also on a timer (though IIRC it is the only other UA that is) but they get atlatists and pyramids to balance this, both right at the very earlygame. Civs like France for example also have nothing earlygame but for this Japan everything comes at once, from late medieval to industrial they will be extremely strong but they will fall off pretty damn hard midway through the industrial era. This doesn't fit Japan at all, seeing as they are still pretty damn relevant today.

 

[fyar]

I and several others have been advocating for this over at the Firaxis forum also. I think the idea that you can keep a Great Person around for hundreds of years is bad both from a gameplay and realism perspective exactly for the reasons discussed here. Same goes for Great Engineers, btw. - saving them up for key wonders is a bit of a game killer, but obviously I do it myself all the time.

I would even go as far as suggested a time-limit on how long you can have a GP before you have to use it if not for the fact that this would add a lot of micromanagement because people will then only spawn them at the good times, so that will not make game better. But the fixed strength to birth time seems like a perfect solution.

Yep, I didn't mean to say that it was MY idea, as I had seen it suggested before. But why do you say that the same thing applies to engineers? I don't see that as such a big problem, where people are saving multiple engineers at a time across eras. On the contrary, why should one be forced to expend an engineer if you currently don't have any wonders at all to build?

I agree that it shouldn't be about micromanaging great people. In fact, I would go so far as to say that you shouldn't be able to. Do you think King Charles I ever said, "Now would be a good time to spawn Isaac Newton"? The fix would be to make their appearance somewhat random, like Great Prophets already are. But since some people already hate the Great Prophet mechanic, I suspect this one wouldn't be popular either.

 

[fyar]

Religious Tolerance is trash for two reasons.

One is that about three quarters of the Pantheons do nothing at all unless you have a specific resource or type of tile. The newest one added, God King, literally does nothing for any city except the capital.

Two is that the entire concept of Religion in this game is centered on being as intolerant of other religions as possible! That's literally the entire point of the Inquisitor unit. It's also why Great Prophets strip other religions from your cities when they convert them, which is considered a buff above Missionaries. You should never be trying to propogate someone else's religion. You should be doubling down on your own.

The first problem would be alleviated somewhat by my suggestion, because you would have some measure of control over which pantheons you bring in. Maybe not all of the pantheons you get will be useful, but you can at least target the ones that are... if you have Sacred Path in your jungle city, just set up a trade route with the civ who adopted it.

The second "problem" is one that I dispute as a problem at all. Are you speaking from a gameplay perspective or a historical perspective? This topic was also brought up in another thread titled "Piety change" http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=510870 where I laid out an argument for both reasons. The gist of it is that Piety is about strengthening your religion, and both in gameplay and in history, faith is strengthened when it's chosen freely, not imposed.

 

[kaspergm]

Yep, I didn't mean to say that it was MY idea, as I had seen it suggested before. But why do you say that the same thing applies to engineers? I don't see that as such a big problem, where people are saving multiple engineers at a time across eras. On the contrary, why should one be forced to expend an engineer if you currently don't have any wonders at all to build?

Because, you know, Engineers *do* have that other ability than rushing a wonder, which is called building a Manufactory ... but of course, nobody ever uses that one. I do think the GE Wonder rushing ability is overpowered and bad for game, because after Medieval era, you hardly ever hard-build a wonder but only GE rush them, which means that risk element of going for the wonder disappears. Convenient, obviously, but not good for gameplay.

 

[fyar]

Because, you know, Engineers *do* have that other ability than rushing a wonder, which is called building a Manufactory ... but of course, nobody ever uses that one. I do think the GE Wonder rushing ability is overpowered and bad for game, because after Medieval era, you hardly ever hard-build a wonder but only GE rush them, which means that risk element of going for the wonder disappears. Convenient, obviously, but not good for gameplay.

I do think that manufactories could use a decent buff to make that a tougher decision.

One other question: When you expend a great engineer, do the overflow hammers spill onto your next building project, as they do with normal construction? If they did, then it would at least make it reasonable to have to spend your engineers right away, even if there's no wonder available. I would still prefer to use it for a wonder if I could, but being able to use it to build, for example, a university, workshop, and a bank all in successive turns at least wouldn't be wasteful.

Also, you must spawn a lot more great engineers than I do, because there are still plenty of late game wonders that I hard-build. I save the engineers for key wonders like Pisa or Eiffel (for cultural victories) or Hubble (science victories).

 

[Barathor]

Anybody try out the new Landsknechts yet?

I started a game as Portugal with the beta. I'm raking in the gold; a dominant religion with Tithe is helping too! Two of my neighbors, Denmark and the Celts, were a bit weak and I decided it was time to expand my empire once I obtained Mercenary Army (before that, I went Liberty since I had a lot of room to expand due to where I was placed on the map and the way the other civs initially expanded).

According to demographics, my army was just average at first. I started focusing on trebuchets in preparation when I was ready to start the Commerce tree. Once I had Civil Service, got Mercenary Army, and started buying the landsknechts, I just blew up. Even better, once I obtained the next policy, the cost to purchase these went from 220 to only 160 gold; cheaper than Warriors!

I really zerged Denmark and he was quickly obliterated. I pillaged almost everything he had and it didn't slow me down a bit. Even if he killed some of them, I just kept buying more in the nearest cities and they immediately charged towards his empire. Very fun! Later, I used all the stolen workers as the cleanup crew.

 

[fuzzatron717]

When is this new patch out cause I see people who say they have yet I am online in steam and it is automatically updates but if this patch is out and its not updating something must be wrong.

 

[Buccaneer]

How about we discuss the existing changes in the Fall Patch beta instead of throwing out ideas ad nauseum? There is a whole forum for silly stuff like that.

 

[That Other Guy]

Anybody try out the new Landsknechts yet?

I started a game as Portugal with the beta. I'm raking in the gold; a dominant religion with Tithe is helping too! Two of my neighbors, Denmark and the Celts, were a bit weak and I decided it was time to expand my empire once I obtained Mercenary Army (before that, I went Liberty since I had a lot of room to expand due to where I was placed on the map and the way the other civs initially expanded).

According to demographics, my army was just average at first. I started focusing on trebuchets in preparation when I was ready to start the Commerce tree. Once I had Civil Service, got Mercenary Army, and started buying the landsknechts, I just blew up. Even better, once I obtained the next policy, the cost to purchase these went from 220 to only 160 gold; cheaper than Warriors!

I really zerged Denmark and he was quickly obliterated. I pillaged almost everything he had and it didn't slow me down a bit. Even if he killed some of them, I just kept buying more in the nearest cities and they immediately charged towards his empire. Very fun! Later, I used all the stolen workers as the cleanup crew.

How long were they usable for? That policy seems really time limited - get in it in the medieval or don't bother at all.

When is this new patch out cause I see people who say they have yet I am online in steam and it is automatically updates but if this patch is out and its not updating something must be wrong.

Go look at this thread: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=510757

 

[MadDjinn]

When is this new patch out cause I see people who say they have yet I am online in steam and it is automatically updates but if this patch is out and its not updating something must be wrong.

this is a public beta period.

You must opt-in to it via the beta tag (instructions in the sticky thread) to get access to the code.

The actual patch won't be available for another week or two.

 

[MadDjinn]

How about we discuss the existing changes in the Fall Patch beta instead of throwing out ideas ad nauseum? There is a whole forum for silly stuff like that.

plus they aren't looking for that type of feedback anyways.

 

[Mudrac]

Seems a little dumb that a combat unit that becomes a great person can't become a great general. Also the upgrade cost would have to be pretty damn expensive to balance this out

Also, with this change Japan become pretty much completely vanilla until you hit the unique tech, I know that the Mayan UA is also on a timer (though IIRC it is the only other UA that is) but they get atlatists and pyramids to balance this, both right at the very earlygame. Civs like France for example also have nothing earlygame but for this Japan everything comes at once, from late medieval to industrial they will be extremely strong but they will fall off pretty damn hard midway through the industrial era. This doesn't fit Japan at all, seeing as they are still pretty damn relevant today.

Actually, yeah.. I forgot about Great General we could put him in as well.

 

[fyar]

How about we discuss the existing changes in the Fall Patch beta instead of throwing out ideas ad nauseum? There is a whole forum for silly stuff like that.

plus they aren't looking for that type of feedback anyways.

Those ideas are relevant to the patch. That type of feedback isn't appropriate for the sticky thread on the patch, but this isn't that thread.

They obviously thought Germany, Japan, Honor, Piety, and Commerce needed to be buffed, but one might argue that those buffs were insufficient. (I think Germany's was sufficient, and maybe Japan's and Commerce's were arguable.) If you believe, for example, that the real culprit in Piety was Religious Tolerance, not Theocracy, then why shouldn't we discuss ways to strengthen Religious Tolerance in this thread? Not in the sticky thread, but in THIS thread.

 

[Txurce]

Getting bombers requires you to research Biology and possibly Refrigeration which are expensive technologies to strive for when attempting a domination victory.

Spoiler :

Researching Oil is the left side of the tech tree. Iron Working, Steel and the UU - Samurai are unlocked by technologies on the right side of the tech tree. This allows Japan to focus science on warfare technologies throughout the Ancient and Renaissance eras making them more effective in early domination strategies and possibly, the very early Industrial era. Japan will probably field Zeroes while other civilizations are still building triplanes and WWW I bombers.

Japan can make Zeroes without oil and this in turn will flavor Japan to be Isolationists on their own continent if she has not already dominated her region. If Japan has not dominated it's continent, it should focus science to achieve their UA, then proceed toward Flight and other Industrial military technologies without having to research technologies that let them explore beyond their continent.

You have to invest hundreds of bulbs to get to oil in order to build Zeroes without trade deals and diplomacy. These technologies also unlock compass, astrology, navigation, and archaeology which not only allow you to sail ships beyond your coast but also allows to build museums and archaeologists.

If Japan is attempting a domination victory, then their late game UU works will with their Medieval UU and might make them competitive for games in the Industrial era. It's a subtle bonus. I can't wait to see someone actually try it.

EDIT - I hope someone does a small continents game and posts screen shots of their samurai conquering cities then improving coastal improvements while they prepare for the next battle.

This explanation of Japan's Korea-like thematic unity and the underestimated value of the Zero nails it.

 

[Qoma]

I had posted this list in another thread, as well, but in case some people hadn't noticed it... lots of spoilers, so beware!

Full list of new art/artists in the fall patch:

Spoiler :

Henri Rousseau - Tiger in a Tropical Storm
Jozef Borsos - The Home Guard
Ilya Repin - Ceremonial Sitting
Sergey Ivanov - Russian Tsar
Caravaggio - The Crucifixion of Saint Peter
Frans Post - Landscape with Ant Bear
Willem the Younger - Dutch Men O War
William Simpson - Harbor in Balaklava
George Healy - Peacemakers
Utagawa Kuniyoshi - Portrait of Chitasei
Adrien Carpentiers - Portrait of Louis
Bahram Kirmanshahi - Portrait of Nasser
August Haake - Field with Sheafs
William Bourguereau - At the Edge of the Brook
Francesco Hayez - The Kiss
Viktor Vasnetsov - Moving House
Horace Vernet - Mexican Expedition
Karl Briullov - Last Day of Pompeii
Edmund Leighton - The Accolade

... as well as the XML code for the new archaeological great works of writing ... "TXT_KEY_GREAT_WORK_QUOTE_ROSETTA" is for the Rosetta Stone, obviously, and so forth. Also cool, looks like I see the Dead Sea Scrolls, Linear B (the syllabary for ancient Mycenean Greek), etc. The only thing cooler would have been Linear A

Spoiler :

<Row Tag="TXT_KEY_GREAT_WORK_QUOTE_ROSETTA">
<Text>"...those who dwell in them, and unto each and every one who hold any dignity in them, now behold, he is like unto a god..."</Text>
</Row>
<Row Tag="TXT_KEY_GREAT_WORK_QUOTE_MAWANGDUI">
<Text>"Bloody Hemorrhoid. Boil thoroughly one male rat in urine. Hot press with the vapor."</Text>
</Row>
<Row Tag="TXT_KEY_GREAT_WORK_QUOTE_DEAD_SEA">
<Text>"Tell them this, 'These gods, who did not make the heavens and the earth, will perish from the earth and from under the heavens.'"</Text>
</Row>
<Row Tag="TXT_KEY_GREAT_WORK_QUOTE_GILGAMESH">
<Text>"I will set up my name in the place where the names of famous men are written, and where no man's name is written I will raise a monument to the gods."</Text>
</Row>
<Row Tag="TXT_KEY_GREAT_WORK_QUOTE_NAG_HAMMADI">
<Text>"But those whom he has anointed are the ones who have become perfect. For full jars are the ones that are anointed. But when the anointing of one is dissolved, it is emptied."</Text>
</Row>
<Row Tag="TXT_KEY_GREAT_WORK_QUOTE_LINEAR_B">
<Text>"Thus saw Phugebris when the king appointed Augewas the do-mo-ko-ro...slaves women thirty-two...older girls five...younger girls fifteen...younger boys four"</Text>
</Row>
<Row Tag="TXT_KEY_GREAT_WORK_QUOTE_PAPYRUS_ANI">
<Text>"Hail, oh ye who give cakes and ales to perfect souls in the House of Osiris, give ye cakes and ale twice each day to the soul of Osiris Ani, whose word is true before the gods, the Lords of Abydos."</Text>
</Row>
<Row Tag="TXT_KEY_GREAT_WORK_QUOTE_RUNESTONE">
<Text>"I say this the second, who nine generations ago lost his life with the Hreidgoths, and died with them for his guilt."</Text>
</Row>
<Row Tag="TXT_KEY_GREAT_WORK_QUOTE_HAMMURABI">
<Text>"196. If a man put out the eye of another man, his eye shall be put out."</Text>
</Row>
<Row Tag="TXT_KEY_GREAT_WORK_QUOTE_BAKHSHALI">
<Text>"Five merchants together buy a jewel. Its price is equal to half the money possessed by the first together with the money possessed by the others, or one-third of the money possessed by the second together with the moneys possessed by the others..."</Text>
</Row>
<Row Tag="TXT_KEY_GREAT_WORK_QUOTE_CODEX_PEREZ">
<Text>"The prophecy of Chilam Balam, the singer, of Cabal-chen, Mani. On 13 Ahau the katun will end in the time of the Itza, in the time of Tancah"</Text>
</Row>
<Row Tag="TXT_KEY_GREAT_WORK_QUOTE_JUSHICHIJO_KEMPO">
<Text>"Harmony is to be valued, and the avoidance of wanton opposition to be honored...Then what is there which cannot be accomplished."</Text>
</Row>
<Row Tag="TXT_KEY_GREAT_WORK_QUOTE_KELLS">
<Text>"In the beginning was the Word...and the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us."</Text>
</Row>
<Row Tag="TXT_KEY_GREAT_WORK_QUOTE_CODEX_BORGIA">
<Text>"Tezcatlipoca: He by whom we live. Lord of the Near and the Nigh."</Text>
</Row>
<Row Tag="TXT_KEY_GREAT_WORK_QUOTE_KEDUKAN_BUKRIT">
<Text>"In the year 605 of the Saka calendar, on the eleventh day on the full moon of Waisaka, His Majesty took a boat to make a profit."</Text>
</Row>

 

[Uberfrog]

I had posted this list in another thread, as well, but in case some people hadn't noticed it... lots of spoilers, so beware!

Full list of new art/artists in the fall patch:

Spoiler :

Henri Rousseau - Tiger in a Tropical Storm
Jozef Borsos - The Home Guard
Ilya Repin - Ceremonial Sitting
Sergey Ivanov - Russian Tsar
Caravaggio - The Crucifixion of Saint Peter
Frans Post - Landscape with Ant Bear
Willem the Younger - Dutch Men O War
William Simpson - Harbor in Balaklava
George Healy - Peacemakers
Utagawa Kuniyoshi - Portrait of Chitasei
Adrien Carpentiers - Portrait of Louis
Bahram Kirmanshahi - Portrait of Nasser
August Haake - Field with Sheafs
William Bourguereau - At the Edge of the Brook
Francesco Hayez - The Kiss
Viktor Vasnetsov - Moving House
Horace Vernet - Mexican Expedition
Karl Briullov - Last Day of Pompeii
Edmund Leighton - The Accolade

... as well as the XML code for the new archaeological great works of writing ... "TXT_KEY_GREAT_WORK_QUOTE_ROSETTA" is for the Rosetta Stone, obviously, and so forth. Also cool, looks like I see the Dead Sea Scrolls, Linear B (the syllabary for ancient Mycenean Greek), etc. The only thing cooler would have been Linear A

Spoiler :

<Row Tag="TXT_KEY_GREAT_WORK_QUOTE_ROSETTA">
<Text>"...those who dwell in them, and unto each and every one who hold any dignity in them, now behold, he is like unto a god..."</Text>
</Row>
<Row Tag="TXT_KEY_GREAT_WORK_QUOTE_MAWANGDUI">
<Text>"Bloody Hemorrhoid. Boil thoroughly one male rat in urine. Hot press with the vapor."</Text>
</Row>
<Row Tag="TXT_KEY_GREAT_WORK_QUOTE_DEAD_SEA">
<Text>"Tell them this, 'These gods, who did not make the heavens and the earth, will perish from the earth and from under the heavens.'"</Text>
</Row>
<Row Tag="TXT_KEY_GREAT_WORK_QUOTE_GILGAMESH">
<Text>"I will set up my name in the place where the names of famous men are written, and where no man's name is written I will raise a monument to the gods."</Text>
</Row>
<Row Tag="TXT_KEY_GREAT_WORK_QUOTE_NAG_HAMMADI">
<Text>"But those whom he has anointed are the ones who have become perfect. For full jars are the ones that are anointed. But when the anointing of one is dissolved, it is emptied."</Text>
</Row>
<Row Tag="TXT_KEY_GREAT_WORK_QUOTE_LINEAR_B">
<Text>"Thus saw Phugebris when the king appointed Augewas the do-mo-ko-ro...slaves women thirty-two...older girls five...younger girls fifteen...younger boys four"</Text>
</Row>
<Row Tag="TXT_KEY_GREAT_WORK_QUOTE_PAPYRUS_ANI">
<Text>"Hail, oh ye who give cakes and ales to perfect souls in the House of Osiris, give ye cakes and ale twice each day to the soul of Osiris Ani, whose word is true before the gods, the Lords of Abydos."</Text>
</Row>
<Row Tag="TXT_KEY_GREAT_WORK_QUOTE_RUNESTONE">
<Text>"I say this the second, who nine generations ago lost his life with the Hreidgoths, and died with them for his guilt."</Text>
</Row>
<Row Tag="TXT_KEY_GREAT_WORK_QUOTE_HAMMURABI">
<Text>"196. If a man put out the eye of another man, his eye shall be put out."</Text>
</Row>
<Row Tag="TXT_KEY_GREAT_WORK_QUOTE_BAKHSHALI">
<Text>"Five merchants together buy a jewel. Its price is equal to half the money possessed by the first together with the money possessed by the others, or one-third of the money possessed by the second together with the moneys possessed by the others..."</Text>
</Row>
<Row Tag="TXT_KEY_GREAT_WORK_QUOTE_CODEX_PEREZ">
<Text>"The prophecy of Chilam Balam, the singer, of Cabal-chen, Mani. On 13 Ahau the katun will end in the time of the Itza, in the time of Tancah"</Text>
</Row>
<Row Tag="TXT_KEY_GREAT_WORK_QUOTE_JUSHICHIJO_KEMPO">
<Text>"Harmony is to be valued, and the avoidance of wanton opposition to be honored...Then what is there which cannot be accomplished."</Text>
</Row>
<Row Tag="TXT_KEY_GREAT_WORK_QUOTE_KELLS">
<Text>"In the beginning was the Word...and the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us."</Text>
</Row>
<Row Tag="TXT_KEY_GREAT_WORK_QUOTE_CODEX_BORGIA">
<Text>"Tezcatlipoca: He by whom we live. Lord of the Near and the Nigh."</Text>
</Row>
<Row Tag="TXT_KEY_GREAT_WORK_QUOTE_KEDUKAN_BUKRIT">
<Text>"In the year 605 of the Saka calendar, on the eleventh day on the full moon of Waisaka, His Majesty took a boat to make a profit."</Text>
</Row>

These new archaeological Great Works are exactly what I'd hoped Hidden Sites would yield. So glad they're making them more unique than standard sites now.

 

[JHoov714]

How about we discuss the existing changes in the Fall Patch beta instead of throwing out ideas ad nauseum? There is a whole forum for silly stuff like that.

^ This. Thanks so much for saying what was on my mind. Back on topic.

With regards to the change to Gunboat Diplomacy...

"Tenet: Gunboat Diplomacy tenet now makes military units 50% more effective at intimidating City-States. Also rearranged tooltip text for bullying score so that the positive factors are always first, for readability."

Maybe I'm not reading it correctly, but does that mean it does this instead of what it already did, or in addition to gaining influence like it already did?

Previously, each lvl 3 tenant was clearly aimed at a certain VC. Though it wasn't great before, if all this does is make you better at bullying, it won't go a long way toward helping you win a Diplo Victory where you want as many CS Allies as possible.

 

[fyar]

With regards to the change to Gunboat Diplomacy...

"Tenet: Gunboat Diplomacy tenet now makes military units 50% more effective at intimidating City-States. Also rearranged tooltip text for bullying score so that the positive factors are always first, for readability."

Maybe I'm not reading it correctly, but does that mean it does this instead of what it already did, or in addition to gaining influence like it already did?

Previously, each lvl 3 tenant was clearly aimed at a certain VC. Though it wasn't great before, if all this does is make you better at bullying, it won't go a long way toward helping you win a Diplo Victory where you want as many CS Allies as possible.

I can see the ambiguity, but I think it's safe to assume that they meant that this is in addition to, not in place of, the old Gunboat Diplomacy. For the very reasons that you cited: it's supposed to help you for a diplomatic victory. If this replaced the old Gunboat Diplomacy, it wouldn't even be worthy of a tier 1 policy, let alone a tier 3 policy targeted specifically for diplo victories.

 

[Snes]

So you would force an artificial time separation despite the player purposely making an investment in scientists (which has a cost) in order to have a burst in research?

But the long-term investment aspect of Great Scientists is already represented in the game with Academies. That's the trade-off associated with most Great People: you either get a large flat bonus or you get an over-time bonus that adds up. That trade-off isn't present with the Great Scientist.

 

[neilkaz]

Are the AI's more aggressive in the patch? In an Emperor level test game last night, where I spawned on an island with Wu and Wilhelm I was clobbered by a flood of Swedish units and as I was beating them back, he allied with Tyre who then instantly came at me with several units. Later I was jumped upon from the other side by a horde of Chinese units.

Lesson learned.. Civ 5 is a war game. I had some units, but just not enough of them.