Fall Patch changes discussion thread

[Enrico Swagolo]

I don't know how I feel about the Pracinhas now.. I mean, America's Minuteman now has no movement cost, Drill I AND the Pracinhas' promotion. Also, Muskets come much earlier. It makes the Pracinha pale in comparison.

Yeah, it makes Pracinha - which IIRC has no real benefit except for their ability - kinda lame. They weren't good before, but now the comparison is going to make them seem just abysmal. Especially since they come much later, which means they should if anything have more benefits to compensate.

 

[Matthew.]

So someone explain Samurai to me. I'm guessing they don't upgrade into muskets because it gives a longer window for them to use fishing boats. Or whatever. Isn't this technically a nerf? Japan is stuck with Samurai all throughout Renaissance and the only bonus is the ability to build fishing boats, which is highly situational and won't come into play in most games. Sure, they get drill 1, but I think I'd rather just have the base musket unit with 24 strength and get my own drill 1.

I admit I haven't played a full game with Japan yet in the beta patch, so I could very well be missing something--hence asking in this post.

 

[JSMCAG]

I don't know how I feel about the Pracinhas now.. I mean, America's Minuteman now has no movement cost, Drill I AND the Pracinhas' promotion. Also, Muskets come much earlier. It makes the Pracinha pale in comparison.

This... Upgrading Minutemen will grant you pretty much a Pracinha now, only it ignore terrain cost and has Drill I... Hopefully a buff to the Pracinhas will be in order, otherwise this is a "unique" unit that America can also have (and much better, and earlier, than Brazil).

In general, I was under the impression that, to be significat, a bonus must be greater, the later it comes in the game. Right now, this is the exact opposite!

Though I guess one could say what America gains with the Minutemen, it loses in it's rather lackluster UA...

TL;DR: I have mixed feelings about this...

 

[Carl5872]

One thing to keep in mind is that golden ages matter much more for Brazil with the Carnival giving double tourism.

 

[Txurce]

Yeah, it makes Pracinha - which IIRC has no real benefit except for their ability - kinda lame. They weren't good before, but now the comparison is going to make them seem just abysmal. Especially since they come much later, which means they should if anything have more benefits to compensate.

Does that mean you'll take America over Brazil most of the time now? Of course not - because UA's (and the other UU/UB) are obviously part of the equation. Comparing UU's out of context - as opposed to what they are, part of a package - is pointless, except in terms of originality. I agree that sharing a previously unique trait like the GA one is lazy. But the Pracinha ought to be relatively weak, given the power of Brazil's UA and UB.

 

[JHoov714]

1 to 1 the American Unit is a lot better than the Brazil one. However, America is more of a militaristic civ, given that it has two Unique Units. It kind of needs its UUs to really shine as that's mostly all it has going for it.

While you can play Brazil more than one way, its UA lends it toward a Culture Victory. They can still hang their hat on advantages in play in that department while America is out there enjoying its.... extra sight... >.<

The Brazil UU by comparison should receive a buff, especially since it comes sooo late, but that Civ as a whole didn't need a boost as much as America did.

 

[Buccaneer]

I think pledge to protect is a good fix, for now. Buffing other policies while still keeping the consulates/pledge exploit would be silly. The whole point was not to have an easy mechanism to have perma-friends (unless it's an UA) simply by doing a quick detour into patronage. Some of you overthink things too much.

 

[Ayestes]

I don't have a problem with the combination being nerfed so it's not an automatic Friendship, I have a problem with Pledge to Protect still being automatic for everyone. There isn't any choice in it, you just do it because there isn't much of a downside and absolutely none in MP. It didn't fix the entire problem.

 

[Ninakoru]

Still honor is a waste and pity is just subpar. Rationalism to secularism is clearly OP. But consulates+pledge was the biggest unbalance, nice they fixed it... even if it has been made the lazy way.

 

[redwings1340]

Yeah, for the minuteman, I feel like it's fine balance wise, but something more original and unique would be better. Still overall doesn't effect things too much. America/Brazil is just an awesome team pairing now once you get to gunpowder.

 

[JHoov714]

I think pledge to protect is a good fix, for now. Buffing other policies while still keeping the consulates/pledge exploit would be silly. The whole point was not to have an easy mechanism to have perma-friends (unless it's an UA) simply by doing a quick detour into patronage. Some of you overthink things too much.

Buffing policies would never be silly, Honor & Piety especially, most would agree. I think a game with more interesting choices is always better than one with less. If there was something sooo good in both Honor and Piety that was 2 pts in, then you'd really have some choices to make, including perhaps not finishing or delaying some other trees to get it. That makes for a diverse game every time.

The "exploit" part of the Pledge Consulates combo was that there was essentially no diplo consequence if you fail to "protect it"... which should kind of be the idea of hitting "Pledge to Protect". Reducing the influence gain does nothing to fix this, other than ensuring I'll never bother to choose it. (Unless maybe the CS was directly next to me and I already wanted to be allies.)

Instead of coding in something more complicated, they nerfed pledge into uselessness. They have a finite amount of money to spend making/improving the game, I get it. This was the easy fix, so be it.

 

[Cromagnus]

The Pledge to Protect change is not ideal. I'm not sure I'd ever bother to pledge for 5 points. But it's good that this nerfs Consulates. If people bother to choose Consulates, it'll be en route to Scholasticism or full Patronage. It makes opening Patronage less of a no-brainer, meaning less competition for Forbidden Palace.

That all being said, Patronage is still a bit too weak to consider completing, when weighed against Rationalism. So, basically we still have the first tier Policy Trees, the ones you complete (Tradition, Liberty, Rationalism), and the 2nd tier Trees, the ones you dabble in (Honor, Exploration, Commerce, Piety, Aesthetics)

My biggest dissapointment is that GS, GW and GE are still not based on 8 previous turns before spawn. Saving GS to rush through Modern and Info is lame. Saving GW to rush through multiple policies during a golden age/World's Fair is lame. GE is often saved as well, so human players would be much more likely to plant GEs if they didn't have an immediate need for them, which would make manufactories less irrelevant.

This one change would get rid of some of the more exploity-feeling strategies in the game.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

The Pledge to Protect change is not ideal. I'm not sure I'd ever bother to pledge for 5 points. But it's good that this nerfs Consulates. If people bother to choose Consulates, it'll be en route to Scholasticism or full Patronage. It makes opening Patronage less of a no-brainer, meaning less competition for Forbidden Palace.

That all being said, Patronage is still a bit too weak to consider completing, when weighed against Rationalism. So, basically we still have the first tier Policy Trees, the ones you complete (Tradition, Liberty, Rationalism), and the 2nd tier Trees, the ones you dabble in (Honor, Exploration, Commerce, Piety, Aesthetics)

My biggest dissapointment is that GS, GW and GE are still not based on 8 previous turns before spawn. Saving GS to rush through Modern and Info is lame. Saving GW to rush through multiple policies during a golden age/World's Fair is lame. GE is often saved as well, so human players would be much more likely to plant GEs if they didn't have an immediate need for them, which would make manufactories less irrelevant.

This one change would get rid of some of the more exploity-feeling strategies in the game.

I sort of disagree with GEs.

For GS and GW you can ALWAYS bulb them for the full value...

for a GE some of the Hammer value is lost (overshooting)... particularly if there is not a wonder available to build. If a GE gave 100% of its hammers.. and allowed 100% overflow, them it would be comparable.
(ie use your GE for the Pyramids.. or an army).. You can always research masonry if you haven't researched it yet.. but you can be cut off from the Pyramids.

(maybe if the GE gave a free building in all your cities)

 

[redwings1340]

Behind rationalism and tradition, Patronage is still my third favorite policy tree, even with this nerf. Trade routes with city states was buffed a little (and the corresponding policy was too), and the extra science from allies is the best science policy outside in the game for a tall, rich empire (at least while playing against computers). The great people allow you to complete city state quests and keep them as allies. The extra happiness is nice, and the extra gold influence per gift can often save you 500 or 1000 gold while allying city states. It's still a great policy tree!

Allying city states is also nice because it gives you another military presence near civs that declare war on you, and it gives you world congress votes. These aren't negligible bonuses.

 

[Teadrinker]

I didn't see this discussed and i can't check right now, but did research agreements get nerfed?

Research Agreements
Both Civs will now only get the minimum of the two beaker counts (to balance out Rich getting Richer mechanic weakness).

Does that mean you get get the AIs beaker average over the past x turns not your own?

 

[Polycrates]

The Pledge to Protect change is not ideal. I'm not sure I'd ever bother to pledge for 5 points. But it's good that this nerfs Consulates. If people bother to choose Consulates, it'll be en route to Scholasticism or full Patronage. It makes opening Patronage less of a no-brainer, meaning less competition for Forbidden Palace.

That all being said, Patronage is still a bit too weak to consider completing, when weighed against Rationalism. So, basically we still have the first tier Policy Trees, the ones you complete (Tradition, Liberty, Rationalism), and the 2nd tier Trees, the ones you dabble in (Honor, Exploration, Commerce, Piety, Aesthetics)

I feel like a nerf to Consulates would have been a better approach (down to +15 - it would still be a great policy that makes it very easy to be above the friend threshold for a long time with quests). I also think a switch in places between Consulates and Merchant Confederacy would be useful. That extra gold is not really worth going so deep for, but would be much more useful earlier on, and would allow an embargoed civ to get to it relatively quickly.

And Rationalism could do with a drop of Secularism from +2 to +1

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

I didn't see this discussed and i can't check right now, but did research agreements get nerfed?

Research Agreements
Both Civs will now only get the minimum of the two beaker counts (to balance out Rich getting Richer mechanic weakness).

Does that mean you get get the AIs beaker average over the past x turns not your own?

whoever has the lowest yield for the duration of the agreement determines the amount that both get for the RA. so yeah its a nerf but they also no longer have 0 beaker RAs from denouncing. only war can break an RA so im fine with that.

 

[tekjunkie]

Is the AI competent for you guys yet? I feel like it sometimes its smart and othertimes just dumb. I would be ok taking a performance hit for better AI.

 

[Matthew.]

Their aggression is at least closer to G&K levels. Had Monty rush a bunch of units on turn 70 from quite a distance. Crossed past one of my allied city-states, and took my capital (my military was also far away; me and monty both had the same idea of an early rush).

To see the Aztecs not suicide everything to that city-state and go straight for my capital is definitely an improvement.

I think on a bigger picture there could still be more tweaks. More specifically, addressing the issue of optimal gameplay being to hide in the corner with a few cities and rush to any victory you want. The heart of the game is 4X, but eXpansion seems to have been cut leaving us with a 3X game. Still enjoyable at times, but sad that a game filled with tons of military tech and units and the best strategy is to not use any military at all and just to win before the AI can react.

To clarify, I mean if you are trying to attempt to sneak out a win with zero military, even the weakest of AI should be able to take you down. Obviously this is far from true and half the time just city bombardment alone will keep you protected.

 

[Peng Qi]

whoever has the lowest yield for the duration of the agreement determines the amount that both get for the RA. so yeah its a nerf but they also no longer have 0 beaker RAs from denouncing. only war can break an RA so im fine with that.

It's a buff for me, playing on Immortal.