Fall patch discussion thread

[EgonSpengler]

While one agrees to some small degree that this is a mechanic for gameplay rather than match on reality museums do theme to some degree with particular tourist drawing exhibits which is what tourism is about. One disagrees about it being just pattern matching. Indeed many seem to complain it is hard to get the matching with the GPP they receive. That is I believe because one has to trade for works and hold unmatched works in banks.
If one wants to destroy an non matching piece then one simply can trade / give it away. I found this tactic works just fine but does require some tact at times.

I agree about the exhibits. Big museums rarely put their entire collections on display at one time. Perhaps a system whereby Her Majesty could curate particular exhibits to entice tourists from specific nations, allowing her to make "strategic" choices with her works of art? For instance, an exhibit of "French masters" could attract French tourists, as well as allies of the French, such as those ingrates from across the pond, but might discourage anyone who takes a dim view of the French.

 

[Ravenwild]

True. I forgot about the suzerain resources.

 

[elitetroops]

Horses aren't 100% better though. Horsemen maintenance is twice as high as normal ground troops. So foot soldiers early game are maintenance free with Conscription. So better if playing defensively. Warrior promotion line buffs them considerably (+7 attack, +10 range defense) where horsemen only get bonuses to lower the anti-calvary bornus to +5 instead of +10 and bonuses to attacking siege units. Also, warrior class units do not have hard counters like cavalry and spearmen.

But melee promotions give no bonuses vs mounted units. If mounted units are considered overpowered in multiplayer, which I can very well understand, then the melee promos don't do anything to help the situation. And horseman upkeep is exactly the same as swordsman. It's not right to compare them to warriors, since warriors are a lot weaker.

While one agrees to some small degree that this is a mechanic for gameplay rather than match on reality museums do theme to some degree with particular tourist drawing exhibits which is what tourism is about. One disagrees about it being just pattern matching. Indeed many seem to complain it is hard to get the matching with the GPP they receive. That is I believe because one has to trade for works and hold unmatched works in banks.
If one wants to destroy an non matching piece then one simply can trade / give it away. I found this tactic works just fine but does require some tact at times.

The problem with moving around artifacts and art for theming is that there aren't any meaningful choices to be made. Interesting gameplay mechanics have you weighing the pros and cons of your options to find the best way to proceed. There are no pros with not theming and no cons with theming (unless you are trying to avoid cultural victory), which makes this something you just have to do. It doesn't make the late game more interesting, only adds unnecessary micromanagement.

 

[Ravenwild]

Yeah but it's +7 against everything.

 

[elitetroops]

Yeah but it's +7 against everything.

Last time I checked it was +7 vs melee and ranged. A later promo gives +7 vs anti-cavalry. Or has this changed in the patch? Edit: nope, hasn't changed, battlecry is +7 vs melee and ranged.

 

[Ravenwild]

Not 100% but I'm pretty sure it applies to horsemen as well. Either way, I was just trying to make a point of people just looking at warrior class units vs horsemen in a vacuum instead of looking at the whole picture.

 

[Victoria]

The problem with moving around artifacts and art for theming is that there aren't any meaningful choices to be made. Interesting gameplay mechanics have you weighing the pros and cons of your options to find the best way to proceed. There are no pros with not theming and no cons with theming (unless you are trying to avoid cultural victory), which makes this something you just have to do. It doesn't make the late game more interesting, only adds unnecessary micromanagement.

The fact one hay have to trade/steal/sue is a good start, at least it is something so I feel you are a little harsh in this respect.
I do however agree that the mechanics could be improved and I very much likes EgonSpenglers option below. I do like positive suggestions for improvement instead of just saying something is poor.
So with Egon, we get a french portrait painter GP and can immediately theme for France and perhaps her friends. We could also go for all portraits or all different artists

...For instance, an exhibit of "French masters" could attract French tourists, as well as allies of the French...

 

[agonistes]

As far as I saw, nobody complained about the card until the selling exploit was discovered.

On deity, at least, cities were popping a horseman every turn. 1 horse per turn per city. Which might sound exciting,, until you realize that, on a huge map, there are civs a long ways away, maybe across the ocean, that are doing it. Wading through a CoD of that magnitude, that is refreshing that easily, is annoying to the point of being a nightmare.

But more importantly, allowing that kind of production on a military unit, so early in the game, throws the entire multiple victory condition system out of whack, unless/until the other systems are given a tuning pass to bring them in line with warmongering. Production already was the most advantageous resource to focus on. With the ease at which AI cities are conquered, combining easy shields with low-cost units made warmongering a cheat mode.

 

[TonkaTruck]

All steps in the right direction and it was soo fast considering this is the gaming industry.
I feel like removing the freaking huge gold reward for deleting units altogether was the best option, it made no sense to me; you're already getting a reward in terms of lowered upkeep.

 

[MetaSkipper]

I haven't had a chance to check. Have the "increased number of spread" effects like Mosques and Hagia Sophia scaled along with the increased base number of spreads?

Also, what is the new default number of spreads?

 

[bbbt]

The fact one hay have to trade/steal/sue is a good start, at least it is something so I feel you are a little harsh in this respect.
I do however agree that the mechanics could be improved and I very much likes EgonSpenglers option below. I do like positive suggestions for improvement instead of just saying something is poor.
So with Egon, we get a french portrait painter GP and can immediately theme for France and perhaps her friends. We could also go for all portraits or all different artists

Maybe a "mixed" type exhibit boosts more domestic tourists while an all one civ exhibit (i.e. all French) increases tourists from that civ? Would require a lot more trading though to get other Civ's works (with the trade-off that they were getting some of your works).

If they just had different ways of theming (all of one type, mixed types, mixed eras, etc.) that gave different bonuses (or appealed to different tourist 'demographics') it would make it more interesting.

 

[agonistes]

And a treeline can help against arrows, gunfire, shrapnel.

At the Battle of the Bulge, the Germans were setting the timers on their mortars to blow up in the treetops, so that the exploding trees would shower the allied soldiers with splinters (and larger chunks of wood). Trees can enhance the destructive force of artillery. The best defense against artillery is to be somewhere else.

 

[c4c6]

It's both funny and sad to see how the Civ designers fumble around these days.
Sid Meier had most issues that plague Civ solved all the way back in Civ1 or Civ2 the latest, but the game designer laymen at Firaxis refuse to heed the lessons of history when designing their games about history in the here and now.
Didn't even Civ1 give you part of the shields as production if you disbanded a military unit in a city? That's the proper way to do it right there!

Yeah! On disbanding units Civ1 gave you 50% back of the shields needed for production ... and a nice / hard decision too ... because a good alternative to disbanding outdated defensive units (phalanx, musketeer, rifleman) was to fortify them on mountains (100% defense bonus (hills 50%)) near AI cities ...
{Offensive units became very seldom outdated these days (as chariots as well as tanks lost quite often against the famous phalanxes ) - the winner took it all, without injuries.}

 

[Chaleb]

Step in the right direction, but horse units are still overpowered. Well, it's not that horses are OP, it's that melee units and spears suck. With the new movement rules, it's even harder for melee units to get anywhere than it already was in Civ 5, and in Civ 6, they have essentially no benefits over horsemen.

Say you have see an Archer fortified on a hill, you have a melee unit move into a 2 tile range of that Archer, he shoots you. Next turn, you move next to that Archer, but you still can not attack him because he's on a hill. In Civ 5, it didn't work that way, so I think it'd be a huge boon for melee units if they would be able to attack tiles that they don't have the movement points to move into.

Actually, what I would like is that all melee units have a standard movement of 3 instead of 2, it would make them so soooooo much better and by comparison makes horses not that OP.

 

[manu-fan]

I like the look of the Patch. I won't get it for a while because I'm on a Mac, but that's OK.

I was looking for 2 things to be addressed, that unfortunately weren't:

Oil scarcity being fixed.
Last Building built notification being fixed.

Shame these weren't included.

 

[Feyd Rautha]

Actually, what I would like is that all melee units have a standard movement of 3 instead of 2, it would make them so soooooo much better and by comparison makes horses not that OP.

OR Reduce horseman movement to 3 per previous iterations of Civ. They'd still be able to attack that archer on the same turn they see him on the hill, but they wouldn't be able to move through hills and then again through hills, completely avoid ZoC, etc. etc.

 

[Europa Victrix]

After playing a bit, I have to say that the patch did help a lot with some AI issues, and also the Religion gameplay.

 

[Battlehelm043]

Graphics driver issues - Update your nvidia and it's gone.


as you said: balance. From reading the changelog this was not focused on balance. Understandable. I expect some small adjustments and bigger balance stuff along with the next patch or later in the first addon


They state in the changelog that borderwithdrawal when in your own territory has been nerfed. We'll see how it works.



Yeah, that BUGS me to! I use Pins extensively to keep getting track! Annoying. Same for the last build-bug in City screen - That needs to be adressed asap - I fear it might be a deeper problem here with calculating stuff between turns making it hard to come by...

Generally speaking I'm pleased! Quite early for a patch this big!
Lots of good changes here definitely moving everything in the right direction adressing some major UI-complaints. Still a lot to do but you can't do all at once, I understand....
Next thing might be SDK-release with some minor bugsmashes and the one or the other balance-nerf... I think before christmas together with the first DLC running in and get the christmas money...

I think he meant for the Human player to have the border withdrawl request option available.... Which is something that I believe is indeed sorely needed and was promised by the Devs early on...

 

[Zhahz]

I'm kind of impressed - the first patch is out faster than I'd expected and it addresses quite a few player concerns. Decent sized patch too (as in number of items tackled, not the 2g size on steam).

I'm 1000% sure that there will still be lots of unhappy players since some people are happier being unhappy and complaining but this should be a nice patch for many players.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

I'm kind of impressed - the first patch is out faster than I'd expected and it addresses quite a few player concerns. Decent sized patch too (as in number of items tackled, not the 2g size on steam).

I'm 1000% sure that there will still be lots of unhappy players since some people are happier being unhappy and complaining but this should be a nice patch for many players.

Yeah I haven't gotten it yet but it seems pretty solid. I do scratch my head if they haven't fixed the "last built" in the city menu though. It's that exact kind of thing that I would have expected in an early patch like this.