FarowNES02

[The Farow]

Well IF a city-state arises or someone would like to play one that is fine with me and I will make it so their rural can never outpace their urban.

I will change it rural + trade then.

So do we have a comprimise??

 

[Birdjaguar]

I disagree. Some states had no rural economy at all--look at Athens, who probably would have had something like 3 (for the silver mines, mostly)/4/6 or whatever. Most smaller city states would have had no "rural" economy to speak of, and some larger states were more urbanized than we might think. Especially in later periods, having rural economy outstrip urban is just silly.

Of course Athens had a rural economy. And how populated do you think Attica was in the 5th C BC? How about the city of Athens? You can only judge the rural vs urban question in terms of how many people made a living in the city as compared to how many people lived in the area under question. I believe that at this time all people living in Attica were considered Athenian. If Athens was a city of 5,000, how much land would be required to support the "urban" population?

 

[jalapeno_dude]

Well IF a city-state arises or someone would like to play one that is fine with me and I will make it so their rural can never outpace their urban.

I will change it rural + trade then.

So do we have a comprimise??

Rural + Trade is fine with me.

 

[North King]

Of course Athens had a rural economy.

I'm sorry--I didn't know hyperbole was outlawed.

And how populated do you think Attica was in the 5th C BC? How about the city of Athens? You can only judge the rural vs urban question in terms of how many people made a living in the city as compared to how many people lived in the area under question. I believe that at this time all people living in Attica were considered Athenian. If Athens was a city of 5,000, how much land would be required to support the "urban" population?

Um... You're looking at it from the wrong angle. Athen's economy was almost entirely based on what the city itself and its colonies brought in. They supported themselves almost entirely through trade; hence when Athens' fleet was defeated, they could not import grain from Egypt, and they starved. Not all nations supplied their own grain. Rome's Italian province, heavily urbanized, imported most of its grain as well. Trade was well developed, and the notion that a rural network was necessary for the establishment of true states is ridiculous.

 

[LittleBoots]

Well, they are obviously all tied together, however Attica and most of Greece sucks for wheat cultivation (doesn't mean they didn't do some anyway though!). After Pisistratus and Cleisthenes, focus shifted far more towards olives and grapes for use in trading. So what is that classified as? They grow the olives and grapes in the countryside (rural), press them and convert them into oil and wine (respectively) in the city (urban), and then use them at home and sell them abroad (trade). I don't know if rural would be as low as NK claims, but I suppose that depends on how you classify certain things. I agree that trade is the strongest however.

All people living in Attica that satisfied the various requirements were considered Athenian (i.e., at differing times one or two Athenian parents, or, in more ancient times, sufficient income). They did import a good deal of food, however. Is food rural or is it more mines and cash crops?

I still think that the 3 city = 1 urban rule will result in ICS. I suggest that you have to present reasons and that the development proceed in a more "abstract" basis than saying "City X is an Production Center and therefore increases Urban Eco by one." Yes, having a city that is famous for production is one thing, but trying to turn every city into a special city isn't. So if you're going to put limits on things, how about putting limits on special cities instead?

 

[The Farow]

Wow, well I am not trying to go for total realism as that is impossible so the debate can end. I will fix the rules after I finish my 6 paragraph essay for CP Anatomy.

 

[Birdjaguar]

NK: Hyperbole allowed; case closed.

 

[jalapeno_dude]

One last thing. As I already mentioned, and LittleBoots just did too, I strongly suggest that you don't establish a constant price to increase economy. It should be harder to increase a given stat (specifically economy, but the other stats like Education, Infrastructure, etc as well) the higher it is.

 

[The Farow]

I will get rid of the constant price to increase urban economy and I will make decisions on urban economy should increase.

Trade is a huge factor in the economy of nations like Corenwal and such. I think I will emphasize a rule to make trade a little more powerful then what it is.

I am going to redo everyone's economy tomorrow and I will move the deadline back to to Saturday and I wll update on Monday or is that too soon? If so you will have to wait till at least next Friday for an update...

 

[The Farow]

I changed stats and put the final rules on the page. Please tell me any complaints or problems.

I reduced or changed most stats. Some nations lost a great deal of EPs mainly T'lur Pa.

 

[jalapeno_dude]

I changed stats and put the final rules on the page. Please tell me any complaints or problems.

I reduced or changed most stats. Some nations lost a great deal of EPs mainly T'lur Pa.

I should have 4 ECs, since Victoria is one and cultural centers also count (according to the rules) as ECs. I assume that you forgot to add my new cities in.

Spending points are equal to Rural+Urban+Trade+ECs, right?

Also, can I get a response to my NPC diplo?

 

[The Farow]

jalapeno_dude, I agree the cultural centers and religious should be included I just was not sure if should...

Spending is still equal to Rural+Urban+Trade(Includes EC)

From Gentes Citerior Amni Vastissiumi
To Terra Triflunentia

We must decline your offer but we are willing to continue trading with your great empire.

 

[jalapeno_dude]

jalapeno_dude, I agree the cultural centers and religious should be included I just was not sure if should...

They should. As I see it, it's a heirarchy, with each successive special city conferring the benefits of the previous ones, along with other things.[/quote]

Spending is still equal to Rural+Urban+Trade(Includes EC)

Ok. But given that you said Victoria was on a very important trade routes, shouldn't I have additional trade income besides the income from the ECs? Isn't that the point of the non-EC trade economy?

From Gentes Citerior Amni Vastissiumi
To Terra Triflunentia

We must decline your offer but we are willing to continue trading with your great empire.

We regreat your decision, and hope you will reconsider it in the future. Of course we will continue to trade with you.

@Luckymoose: Could you reply to my diplo?

 

[The Farow]

Ok. But given that you said Victoria was on a very important trade routes, shouldn't I have additional trade income besides the income from the ECs? Isn't that the point of the non-EC trade economy?

I said that non-EC trade bonuses will only come if you are in the center of a ton of trade like Corenwal or T'lur Pa. Give a few turns and you will be receiving non-EC trade bonuses as your area of the cradle develops more.

Edit: now that I think about it you should get one EC bonus...

 

[jalapeno_dude]

I said that non-EC trade bonuses will only come if you are in the center of a ton of trade like Corenwal or T'lur Pa. Give a few turns and you will be receiving non-EC trade bonuses as your area of the cradle develops more.

Edit: now that I think about it you should get one EC bonus...

Okay, thanks!

 

[Birdjaguar]

I don't understand why T'lur Pa lost so much compared to Corenwal and Terra Trifluentia: 3/3/5 to 2/2/4.

Prior to the changes T'lur Pa was 3/3/5 with 3 TCs, 11 points per turn. IIRC I paid points to increase the urban and rural and paid at least 2 points (maybe 4) for the new TCs. So only 2 of my 5 trade came from location and stories which seems very reasonalble to me given the location of Waterside on the river and as a major trader in the great sea.

I am going out to see some flamenco dancing shortly, but when I get back I will go through all my orders and confirm what I actually spent to get to 3/3/5.

Why does Terra Trifluentia have more trade than both Corenwal and T'lur Pa? Trade between big traders is certainly more valuable than trade between poor mountain tribes.

 

[The Farow]

I don't understand why T'lur Pa lost so much compared to Corenwal and Terra Trifluentia: 3/3/5 to 2/2/4.

Prior to the changes T'lur Pa was 3/3/5 with 3 TCs, 11 points per turn. IIRC I paid points to increase the urban and rural and paid at least 2 points (maybe 4) for the new TCs. So only 2 of my 5 trade came from location and stories which seems very reasonalble to me given the location of Waterside on the river and as a major trader in the great sea.

I am going out to see some flamenco dancing shortly, but when I get back I will go through all my orders and confirm what I actually spent to get to 3/3/5.

Why does Terra Trifluentia have more trade than both Corenwal and T'lur Pa? Trade between big traders is certainly more valuable than trade between poor mountain tribes.

I understand you invested in these stats to increase them but so did other people who lost numbers. Also, you would only gain one point if I gave you what you wanted.

Now Terra Trifluentia is not just trading with poor mountain tribes. They are trading with various tribes along the main river, Tepehn, Maasla Kiesta, and Kaldur (No contact but indirect trade through Maasla). Plus the mineral rich mountains nearby have contributed quite a bit.

An economy center contributes to trade but is not wholly made up of trade. Corenwal gets a +2 trade bonus and you get a +1 since your fleet is unable to protect all merchant fleets. Terra Trifluentia has a +1 so its trade is not higher it is just that they have more economic output from their cities.

You will outpace them soon trade bonus wise once the pirates come under more control and your fleet is increased.

I cannot give everyone what they want because then economy will shoot through the roof.

 

[Birdjaguar]

I cannot give everyone what they want because then economy will shoot through the roof.

I don't want you to give everyone what they want; just T'lur Pa. This is not a problem Farow, I will move on from this point.

 

[The Farow]

NPC stats done but I missing Canidae which will be revised soon .

Front Page will be updated a few minutes after this post along with a new biome map and I will make an ethnic/cultural map but I need everyone to help me with that one or just send with orders.

 

[LightFang]

Neh, the update said Hyoln got +1 culture

Hylon
The nation of Hylon continues to assimilate its conquests and integrates the former barbaric tribes into a civilized society. The nation is well united and several tribes argue instead of continuing to halt expansion to the weakened tribes to the east and west. Rumors also circulate that the nearby mountains to the west are rich in minerals one of the most attracting as usual being huge deposits of gold, tin and copper all precious to civilization. Works continues on the Du’al Monument which when completed will be the center of the Du’alist religion dominant in the nation.
(+1 culture)

My culture isn't there! D:

Also, help on the ethnic cultural map? I thought we already told you our races...right?