Alturiak
Chieftain
Question: What did Nazis and Fascists do that Communist or americans didn't do worse?
Fascist Patch for Civ3
- Thread starter Thunderfall
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pravda
Chieftain
ok it sems we have some rather less than educated types hanging around this thread, i just have one question.
If you asked everyone in the world to write down their symbol for NIKE it would be the same, if you asked everyone to write down their symbol for Coco Cola it would be the same, and if you asked everybody to write their symbol for fascism, it would be the same.
So the guy or guys saying nazi and their symbol don't represent facism, then they would be one of the few on the whole planet that think that.
If you asked everyone in the world to write down their symbol for NIKE it would be the same, if you asked everyone to write down their symbol for Coco Cola it would be the same, and if you asked everybody to write their symbol for fascism, it would be the same.
So the guy or guys saying nazi and their symbol don't represent facism, then they would be one of the few on the whole planet that think that.
Alturiak
Chieftain
duh! the most ppl accept the american propaganda as the Truth.... and if a country tries to stand up and fight they make up some stupid reason and start to bomb it....
but please lets not start to talk about politics or they gonna censore this politacally incorrect thread
:midfinger oops did i do that?
Whoa, Wolf, calm down. I didn't use those words, and I'm not questioning your motives. I was disturbed that your site caused other posters to burst out into song because they thought you were some sort of comrade in arms.
I will repeat that the website is creepy, but I'll clarify. It's creepy in the way that color video of Hitler (as seen on the History Channel and elsewhere) is way creepy. To see him in color is to imagine him as a flesh-and-blood individual, and it's overwhelming to think that one person did so much evil ....
But I digress. I have seen the disclaimer on your site, and I didn't mean in my earlier post to imply that you endorse fascist views. (If you interpreted it that way, I apologize). The art could be your way of trying to scare us off from the idea. Or it's an attempt to show a piece of history. Whichever, I'm not keen on hanging out in a place where the swastika is so prominent. I do, however, like your Civ2 patch, especially some of the new units that aren't in the regular game.
Good luck to you in Saudi. I've had buddies serve over there, and I appreciate the work you're doing over there.
mercurycrusader
Chieftain
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Messages
- 10
Well, to answer Alturiak's question is "nothing". Communists literally did the exact same thing the Nazis did, only on a larger scale. Does that mean one is not as bad as the other? No. Killing the masses is still killing the masses. Numbers differ, but it's all the same.
Hitro, I made that statement because I believe that there is a distinct difference between a "Fascist" government and just a "Totalitarian" rule, simply in policies. It's like calling your country "Communist", but having a Capitalist system of trade and commerce, such as "Communist" China. But yeah, I worded that statement all wrong. Sorry.
Wolfshanze, you bring up a very good point. Since "true Communism" was never achieved, I'm going to argue that "true Fascism" can be held to that same account. Basically, any government that is run by a totalitarian dictator can never achieve the "true" ideals of that form of government. So yeah, Nazism and Fascism are hard to diversify.
There is a big difference between developing a system of government through philosophy and actually carrying out that system. Communism proves that with Marx's philosophy and Stalin's Communist rule of Russia. Wolfshanze explained it quite nicely, and you also brought up the U.S. government, so I'll trail off to that.
The U.S. is a Republic, or if you want to be "politically correct", a "Democratic Republic". It was modeled from ancient Rome, which ran well, but got too big for it's own good (and those random Gothic barbarian attacks and the rise of Christianity didn't help, either). Compared to ancient Greece's Democracy, the Roman Republic ran more efficiently. The reason Greek Democracy fell would be the fact that every individual ran the country, and it's proven time and time again that a mass of people are driven by emotion and haste rather than rational thought. If the U.S. was a Democracy, or "Direct Democracy", you can be sure that right after the September 11th attack, the people would more than likely have voted to nuke every Middle Eastern country right off the map, then a few months later repent for it. In addition, people are too worried about their own needs and wants to actually vote and debate every gathering, which would be quite often. People would get bored and not show up, and those that did could manipulate the system. One word to look up: Alcabides.
I would consider the Greek Democracy to be the model for Civilization III's Democracy, but it ended up being the U.S. Democratic Republic instead. I'm not sure if it's a clever subliminal message, a mistake, or just because. On any account, the Fascist patch uses Nazism as the model for Civ III's Fascism, and I suppose it makes more sense to most people, so I can agree to those terms.
I check that site. It has a lot of Nazi and Hitler images, sounds, and so forth. No where in the entire site have I seen one pro-Nazi statement. I think a lot of you need to be a little more open minded. I know it's offensive to some, or many, but it's better to know what you hate instead of just hating it. If anything, the site is an unbiased view on Nazism and Fascism altogether. And it's a whole lot better to get an unbiased view on something than a one-sided view, because it allows the individual to form his or her own opinions, and it builds stronger ideals at that. The reason, Wolfshanze, that people think it's pro-Nazism is the fact that images and sounds of Nazi Germany are plastered everywhere, but in no way have I found anything that's actually pro-Nazism in the site.
If you're offended by Fascism to a high extent, I suggest not wearing a black shirt. It's considered a symbol of "Fascist Italy".
Summary:
* Government ideas and actual use of government are different. (arguement)
* The Soviet Union and Nazi Germany killed millions of their own people, and the ONLY logical difference is numbers. (fact, arguement)
* The Fascist Patch website is not pro-Nazi, but a reference site for a game patch. (fact)
* The U.S. is a Republic. (fact, read also "A Republic, Not An Empire" by Pat Buchanan)
* In society and Civ 3, Communism is linked to Stalin, not Marx, Fascism is linked to Hitler, not Mussolini or Franco, and Democracy is linked to the U.S., not ancient Greece. (fact)
* Black shirts and swastikas are considered symbols of Fascism by many. The fasces is more a symbol of authority in ancient Rome, but can be applied to Fascism due to the government's name coming from the fasces. (fact)
* The media tends to slander and confuse in a biased fashion, as people are easily swayed by it's almost unescapable influence. Most media outlets tend to be Liberal, and finding unbiased coverage is hard to do. (fact, arguement)
* Capitalism is more realistic than Socialism, and better suits human nature. (arguement, opinion)
And that's the memo.
Hitro, I made that statement because I believe that there is a distinct difference between a "Fascist" government and just a "Totalitarian" rule, simply in policies. It's like calling your country "Communist", but having a Capitalist system of trade and commerce, such as "Communist" China. But yeah, I worded that statement all wrong. Sorry.
Wolfshanze, you bring up a very good point. Since "true Communism" was never achieved, I'm going to argue that "true Fascism" can be held to that same account. Basically, any government that is run by a totalitarian dictator can never achieve the "true" ideals of that form of government. So yeah, Nazism and Fascism are hard to diversify.
There is a big difference between developing a system of government through philosophy and actually carrying out that system. Communism proves that with Marx's philosophy and Stalin's Communist rule of Russia. Wolfshanze explained it quite nicely, and you also brought up the U.S. government, so I'll trail off to that.
The U.S. is a Republic, or if you want to be "politically correct", a "Democratic Republic". It was modeled from ancient Rome, which ran well, but got too big for it's own good (and those random Gothic barbarian attacks and the rise of Christianity didn't help, either). Compared to ancient Greece's Democracy, the Roman Republic ran more efficiently. The reason Greek Democracy fell would be the fact that every individual ran the country, and it's proven time and time again that a mass of people are driven by emotion and haste rather than rational thought. If the U.S. was a Democracy, or "Direct Democracy", you can be sure that right after the September 11th attack, the people would more than likely have voted to nuke every Middle Eastern country right off the map, then a few months later repent for it. In addition, people are too worried about their own needs and wants to actually vote and debate every gathering, which would be quite often. People would get bored and not show up, and those that did could manipulate the system. One word to look up: Alcabides.
I would consider the Greek Democracy to be the model for Civilization III's Democracy, but it ended up being the U.S. Democratic Republic instead. I'm not sure if it's a clever subliminal message, a mistake, or just because. On any account, the Fascist patch uses Nazism as the model for Civ III's Fascism, and I suppose it makes more sense to most people, so I can agree to those terms.
I check that site. It has a lot of Nazi and Hitler images, sounds, and so forth. No where in the entire site have I seen one pro-Nazi statement. I think a lot of you need to be a little more open minded. I know it's offensive to some, or many, but it's better to know what you hate instead of just hating it. If anything, the site is an unbiased view on Nazism and Fascism altogether. And it's a whole lot better to get an unbiased view on something than a one-sided view, because it allows the individual to form his or her own opinions, and it builds stronger ideals at that. The reason, Wolfshanze, that people think it's pro-Nazism is the fact that images and sounds of Nazi Germany are plastered everywhere, but in no way have I found anything that's actually pro-Nazism in the site.
If you're offended by Fascism to a high extent, I suggest not wearing a black shirt. It's considered a symbol of "Fascist Italy".
Summary:
* Government ideas and actual use of government are different. (arguement)
* The Soviet Union and Nazi Germany killed millions of their own people, and the ONLY logical difference is numbers. (fact, arguement)
* The Fascist Patch website is not pro-Nazi, but a reference site for a game patch. (fact)
* The U.S. is a Republic. (fact, read also "A Republic, Not An Empire" by Pat Buchanan)
* In society and Civ 3, Communism is linked to Stalin, not Marx, Fascism is linked to Hitler, not Mussolini or Franco, and Democracy is linked to the U.S., not ancient Greece. (fact)
* Black shirts and swastikas are considered symbols of Fascism by many. The fasces is more a symbol of authority in ancient Rome, but can be applied to Fascism due to the government's name coming from the fasces. (fact)
* The media tends to slander and confuse in a biased fashion, as people are easily swayed by it's almost unescapable influence. Most media outlets tend to be Liberal, and finding unbiased coverage is hard to do. (fact, arguement)
* Capitalism is more realistic than Socialism, and better suits human nature. (arguement, opinion)
And that's the memo.
Alturiak
Chieftain
well i agree with all except one thing
Fascism has notthing to do with swastikas!
The Swastika is an ancient symbol of unknown origin that has been employed for thousands of years as a religious sign and a decorative emblem. It takes the form of an even cross with the arms bent in the middle at right angles; all bars point in the same direction, clockwise or counterclockwise. The swastika appeared in ancient China, Egypt, and India. It has been found on Greek coins, pre-Christian Celtic and Scandinavian artifacts, the catacombs of the early Christians in Rome, and Byzantine buildings. The swastika was widely used by American Indians. It represented the sun and infinity. In the 20th century, the swastika was adopted as the emblem of the Nazi party in German. Mistaking its origin, the Nazis regarded it as an "Aryan" symbol and linked it to the notion of their "racial superiority". When the war ended, the Allies banned display of the emblem, which had come to be indentified with the "evils" of Hitler's regime.
Fascism has notthing to do with swastikas!
The Swastika is an ancient symbol of unknown origin that has been employed for thousands of years as a religious sign and a decorative emblem. It takes the form of an even cross with the arms bent in the middle at right angles; all bars point in the same direction, clockwise or counterclockwise. The swastika appeared in ancient China, Egypt, and India. It has been found on Greek coins, pre-Christian Celtic and Scandinavian artifacts, the catacombs of the early Christians in Rome, and Byzantine buildings. The swastika was widely used by American Indians. It represented the sun and infinity. In the 20th century, the swastika was adopted as the emblem of the Nazi party in German. Mistaking its origin, the Nazis regarded it as an "Aryan" symbol and linked it to the notion of their "racial superiority". When the war ended, the Allies banned display of the emblem, which had come to be indentified with the "evils" of Hitler's regime.
Alturiak
Chieftain
Return To Castle Wolfenstein sigle player had most of the SS simbols censored and the multiplayer had all nazi related symbold removed.... so they wont show any swasticas.
mercurycrusader
Chieftain
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Messages
- 10
Like I said:
"...considered symbols of Fascism by many."
Keywords are "considered" and "by many". That doesn't necessarily mean that it IS the symbol, but there are many who believe it's an evil symbol due to the Nazi's use of it. It's like a discussion I and some others had over the manji symbol on something...
Sorry if it was worded wrong, but I hope I cleared up my statement.
Wolfshanze
CFC Historian
Well, seems people are finally beginning to understand me a bit more.
MercuryCrusader, I think you and I are on the same page, and your comments are well thought out... like to see someone thinking along the same lines as me!
As for the website, it's been that way for over 4 years, and it will stay that way, as I like the "down with P.C." attitude the site is... of course, to be honest, there's actually less images and sounds on the site than you would see on one hour of the History Channel.
Still, when I get back from working for Uncle Sam here in Saudi (which by the way, sucks... the things I do for my country), I'm thinking of making a "mirror image" of the Fascist Site in a slightly differant humor, which should (hopefully) be more friendly to the people who get so upety over so little.
Anyone familiar with the very rare and obscure WWII song "In der Fuehrer's Face", will have a good idea where I'm going with this idea (that song will do for the mirror image site, what the Horst Wessel Leid does on the current site). Bonus points for anyone familiar with that song! Both sites (the current one and mirror image) will host the same content, but just have a differant look (and sound). I can't wait to get back from Saudi.
MercuryCrusader, I think you and I are on the same page, and your comments are well thought out... like to see someone thinking along the same lines as me!
As for the website, it's been that way for over 4 years, and it will stay that way, as I like the "down with P.C." attitude the site is... of course, to be honest, there's actually less images and sounds on the site than you would see on one hour of the History Channel.
Still, when I get back from working for Uncle Sam here in Saudi (which by the way, sucks... the things I do for my country), I'm thinking of making a "mirror image" of the Fascist Site in a slightly differant humor, which should (hopefully) be more friendly to the people who get so upety over so little.
Anyone familiar with the very rare and obscure WWII song "In der Fuehrer's Face", will have a good idea where I'm going with this idea (that song will do for the mirror image site, what the Horst Wessel Leid does on the current site). Bonus points for anyone familiar with that song! Both sites (the current one and mirror image) will host the same content, but just have a differant look (and sound). I can't wait to get back from Saudi.
actually if im not mistaken isnt the Swastika a Buddist symbol? I mean sure Nazi-Germany basically mirrored the image to flow in the opposite direct but I am quite sure it is a buddist symbol.
Anyoo I might as well give my opinion while im posting.
Sure Facist Germany and Italy were led by insane bloodthirsty dictator's but installing the patch is all a matter of personal preference, if you dont like it, dont use it, if you just like to be really flexible with governements then go ahead knock yourself out, I myself am constantly looking out in this forum for new governments to add.
Im pretty much convinced this wont be a debate ender but thats my 2 cents
Anyoo I might as well give my opinion while im posting.
Sure Facist Germany and Italy were led by insane bloodthirsty dictator's but installing the patch is all a matter of personal preference, if you dont like it, dont use it, if you just like to be really flexible with governements then go ahead knock yourself out, I myself am constantly looking out in this forum for new governments to add.
Im pretty much convinced this wont be a debate ender but thats my 2 cents
Fascism is not about totalitarianism, thats just how it was implemented. In theory (where have we seen these words before...) its more social engineering/guidance than a form of government. Its guiding principle is that every citizen live and work towards the betterment of the STATE, not for their own individualistic goals. Ironically, it shares many of the beliefs as communism.
Fascism (remember, in theory, which is what all the govs in civ are based on...) does not espouse the persecution of minorites.
There are several ancient examples of Fascism, again some in theory, some implemented: Plato's "The Republic" and the Greek city state of Sparta come to mind.
Although the author may have exercised poor taste in choosing Hitler and the Nazi's for all of the graphics in his mod, that doesn't mean he is a Nazi... just read the disclaimer before downloading.
Political Correctness is just the latest incarnation of censorship and the denial of the truth of our past.
Fascism (remember, in theory, which is what all the govs in civ are based on...) does not espouse the persecution of minorites.
There are several ancient examples of Fascism, again some in theory, some implemented: Plato's "The Republic" and the Greek city state of Sparta come to mind.
Although the author may have exercised poor taste in choosing Hitler and the Nazi's for all of the graphics in his mod, that doesn't mean he is a Nazi... just read the disclaimer before downloading.
Political Correctness is just the latest incarnation of censorship and the denial of the truth of our past.
Wolfshanze
CFC Historian
"...Although the author may have exercised poor taste in choosing Hitler and the Nazi's..."
So EXACTLY what is in poor taste when reflecting REAL HISTORY, and exactly who would YOU cast as the defining civilization of Fascism?... Spain?... Argentina?
Sorry to all the politically correct sheep out there, but anyone with half a brain and an ounce of free-will usually thinks of Hitler and Nazi Germany when Fascism comes up as a topic.
I have yet to see everyone start boycotting the History Channel for repeatedly putting up FAR WORSE images of Nazi Germany than have EVER been seen on the Fascist Patch... "Oh no... A swastika and Hitler's face... I'm so offended"... come on, please people... Hitler's evil is cast in stone... does this mean he never existed and can never be seen or portrayed ever again? How about all those movies that have Hitler in them? Are they showing "Hollywood's Poor Taste in having a film about the Third Reich"?!??!?!
Sorry that I don't bow down to all the politically correct sheep, but Hitler happened... you can all cry about it all you want, and censor history books, refuse to watch the History Channel, and never see another WWII film from Hollywood ever again (and for that matter, you better not watch Nickelodeon at night either... they have that show with extremely poor taste, Hogan's Heroes... have you seen all the Swastikas and people dressed up as Hitler on that show?).
Political Correctness is for the weak-minded sheep who like to be told what they should and shouldn't find offensive instead of forming their own opinions.
What Hitler did is offensive... the actual fact that Hitler existed and portraying him on the History Channel, or Hogan's Heroes on TV, or a game such as Civ3 is NOT offensive, but simply acknowledging he existed.
What is in "poor taste" is covering one's own eyes and ears to the world around them and pretending that things didn't happen.
Sorry, but I don't think portraying Argentina is the answer to the Fascist Patch... that would be in "poor taste" to actual history.
So EXACTLY what is in poor taste when reflecting REAL HISTORY, and exactly who would YOU cast as the defining civilization of Fascism?... Spain?... Argentina?
Sorry to all the politically correct sheep out there, but anyone with half a brain and an ounce of free-will usually thinks of Hitler and Nazi Germany when Fascism comes up as a topic.
I have yet to see everyone start boycotting the History Channel for repeatedly putting up FAR WORSE images of Nazi Germany than have EVER been seen on the Fascist Patch... "Oh no... A swastika and Hitler's face... I'm so offended"... come on, please people... Hitler's evil is cast in stone... does this mean he never existed and can never be seen or portrayed ever again? How about all those movies that have Hitler in them? Are they showing "Hollywood's Poor Taste in having a film about the Third Reich"?!??!?!
Sorry that I don't bow down to all the politically correct sheep, but Hitler happened... you can all cry about it all you want, and censor history books, refuse to watch the History Channel, and never see another WWII film from Hollywood ever again (and for that matter, you better not watch Nickelodeon at night either... they have that show with extremely poor taste, Hogan's Heroes... have you seen all the Swastikas and people dressed up as Hitler on that show?).
Political Correctness is for the weak-minded sheep who like to be told what they should and shouldn't find offensive instead of forming their own opinions.
What Hitler did is offensive... the actual fact that Hitler existed and portraying him on the History Channel, or Hogan's Heroes on TV, or a game such as Civ3 is NOT offensive, but simply acknowledging he existed.
What is in "poor taste" is covering one's own eyes and ears to the world around them and pretending that things didn't happen.
Sorry, but I don't think portraying Argentina is the answer to the Fascist Patch... that would be in "poor taste" to actual history.
Wolfshanze
CFC Historian
As the author of the Civ3 Fascist Patch, I am FULLY aware that the new "official" v1.16 patch is out for Civ3.
The Fascist Patch was written for v1.07 (original) version of Civ3.
I have EVERY intention of recreating the patch exclusively for the new v1.16 of Civ3, but due to my present predicament (I'm fighting for Uncle Sam in Saudi Arabia), I have no access to my website's server, and am not allowed to upload files anywhere, so until I return stateside (in January), there will be no new versions of the Fascist Patch until next month... (which might be good, since there may be a newer patch by then anyways).
So for now, please realize that the Fascist Patch was written for v1.07 and will stay as such until January... how it works with the new version, I cannot gaurantee!
Thanks for your understanding... believe me, I'm anxiously awaiting to return stateside!
The Fascist Patch was written for v1.07 (original) version of Civ3.
I have EVERY intention of recreating the patch exclusively for the new v1.16 of Civ3, but due to my present predicament (I'm fighting for Uncle Sam in Saudi Arabia), I have no access to my website's server, and am not allowed to upload files anywhere, so until I return stateside (in January), there will be no new versions of the Fascist Patch until next month... (which might be good, since there may be a newer patch by then anyways).
So for now, please realize that the Fascist Patch was written for v1.07 and will stay as such until January... how it works with the new version, I cannot gaurantee!
Thanks for your understanding... believe me, I'm anxiously awaiting to return stateside!
trainspotter9
Chieftain
- Joined
- Sep 29, 2001
- Messages
- 6
Chuckster, I have to first state that I am not white, I'm Persian (Iranian), yet I find myself agreeing with you.
I find that our society has completely compromised truth in favor of political correctness. I see white people having no pride in their race while all the other races do. I see simple truths about differences in sex and race being ignored by the scientific community because of fear of being politically incorrect.
Anyways, about fascism:
Historically it is relevant because it had such a major impact on history.
It must be noted that the pace of change is constantly accelerating as we progress through time. For tens of thousands of years during the ice age man barely progressed, then we discovered agriculture and in about five thousands years we were in the bronze age. The bronze age lasted for 3-5 thousand years depending on where in the world you are. Next came the iron age; 2500 years.. we enter the renaissance at about 1500 AD, that lasts for a couple hundred years, then we to imperialism... and soon we are in the midst of the industrial revolution. We enter the modern age within 150 years (automobiles) after the industrial revolution, and now we are in the information age, after only 80 years. Thus, although Germany's fascist movement existed for only 15 years, this is a significant period considering the percentage of the modern age that it took up; roughly one fifth. 15 years is alot more significant now then it was 4000 years ago.
So anyways,
Fascism turned Europe's largest and most productive country into a war machine. It caused World War 2 which completely changed history from then on. The holocaust basically eliminated European Jewry which has had effects on the present day 'state' of Israel and the problems in the middle east. The effects of fascism cannot be overstated.
As a government form it is ideal for warfare. World domination by force (world domination is already complete by corporations) can only be possible with fascism. It is ideal for giving the populace the will to carry out what is necessary to take over the world. Communism could never have taken over the world IMHO. The cold war was basically escalated by the States at every step because big business did not like communism (no free-market/trade) in other countries and also communistic ideals (socialism) spreading in their own. Communism eventually fails because change happens within countries as people realize it is an overly optimistic idealogy not suited for the flaws of humanity. Fascism on the other hand seems to only gain in power and extremity as long as the nation is at war (therefore ideal for world domination). In a dominated world, fascism's brutal suppression and un-paralleled propoganda would keep the government form in tact with the absence of outside governments. Communism is more likely to fail to maintain a world government because it is unnatural, going completely against our instinct of 'survival of the fittest' while fascism elevates this creed above all else.
Hitler came extremely close to taking over the world. Yes I have read all the theories and facts regarding how badly Germany was out-produced and out-numbered, but had they taken out Russia in the beginning of the war, and had Hitler thought long term in 1940(ex:continued the radar program rather then opting for research which could only be applied within one year), Germany would have been in a good position to take over. Better strategies could have resulted in the destruction of the RAF in 1940, and better anti-espionage efforts could have resulted in Germany winning the battle of the Atlantic. With England and Russia out of the picture Germany's forces could have been diverted to quelling guerilla partisan armies. Germany would have had all of the Russian territory and all its oil and easy access to the oil-rich middle-east. U.S.'s fall would be inevitable.
I haven't even mentioned what could have happened if Japan and Germany had coordinated a two front assault on Russia.
Thank god Germany didn't win the war, but anyone who says fascism is not a relevant government form is ignoring the fact that such a government came closer to taking over the world then any other.
Changes that should be made to the fascism patch:
Fascism when in a peace-time economy should be the same as an advanced despotism. This would be like Argentina's fascist government which didn't do much of anything but kill its own citizens. A peace-time fascist government usually lasts longer then a war-time fascist government, but seems to be far inferior to Communism and Democracy in the sense of expansionism and advancement.
Fascism when switched to war-time economy should suddenly get all of its bonuses. It should get huge production bonuses (2 extra shield on every square) and produce only veteran (elite in the case of militaristic civs) units. This may seem like over-kill but the penalty of fascism should be tremendous.
Under a war-time economy fascism should receive 'peace wariness'. This means Fascist governments would have to start conquering, because being at war is not enough to avert peace-wariness, the civ has to be taking cities to keep its citizens happy. A war of attrition was not what the Nazis were good at, that is why they lost to the Russians... The fascist civ would have to make huge gains and keep making them to keep its citizens happy under fascism. If a fascist civ starts losing cities its citizens will be roused by nationalism and all un-happiness should end. This should make for interesting games as the fascist civ see-saws back and forth between taking enemy cities, reaching a wall, cities going into disorder, losing cities, cities again producing, and again retaking the cities.
Under a war-time economy, fascism should be impervious to cultural assimilation and propoganda, but it should produce no culture of its own. This would lead to other civs not liking the fascist civ and allieing againt it. Fascist governments should be well-liked by monarchies, fascisms and despotisms as they are similar in that they are dictatorial as well.
Fascism should only be able to raze foreign cities. The captured workers could then be rushed to the civ's cities and used to rush production by killing them. This sounds about like what the Germans did.
Fascism should get double the effect out of scientific buildings during a war-time economy. This would make-up for the fact that they receive no culture from the buildings and also mimic the scientific achievements of the Nazis (V-2 rocket, jet fighters)
Conclusion: the effect of this type of fascist government would be that players who want to take over the world dramatically would choose it. It would not be a good civ to play if you are not a war-monger. Most civs will ally against you as you must constantly start wars, not even stopping once you have destroyed one civ. Under peace-time economy a fascist government should be susceptible to cultural assimilation, as this is what happened to fascist countries like Argentina (Pinochet overthrown largely due to foreign influences). During war-time a fascist civ would advance rapidly in science and have the best offensive military in the game. This would lead to it conquering many cities quickly before being challenged by many civs.
I find that our society has completely compromised truth in favor of political correctness. I see white people having no pride in their race while all the other races do. I see simple truths about differences in sex and race being ignored by the scientific community because of fear of being politically incorrect.
Anyways, about fascism:
Historically it is relevant because it had such a major impact on history.
It must be noted that the pace of change is constantly accelerating as we progress through time. For tens of thousands of years during the ice age man barely progressed, then we discovered agriculture and in about five thousands years we were in the bronze age. The bronze age lasted for 3-5 thousand years depending on where in the world you are. Next came the iron age; 2500 years.. we enter the renaissance at about 1500 AD, that lasts for a couple hundred years, then we to imperialism... and soon we are in the midst of the industrial revolution. We enter the modern age within 150 years (automobiles) after the industrial revolution, and now we are in the information age, after only 80 years. Thus, although Germany's fascist movement existed for only 15 years, this is a significant period considering the percentage of the modern age that it took up; roughly one fifth. 15 years is alot more significant now then it was 4000 years ago.
So anyways,
Fascism turned Europe's largest and most productive country into a war machine. It caused World War 2 which completely changed history from then on. The holocaust basically eliminated European Jewry which has had effects on the present day 'state' of Israel and the problems in the middle east. The effects of fascism cannot be overstated.
As a government form it is ideal for warfare. World domination by force (world domination is already complete by corporations) can only be possible with fascism. It is ideal for giving the populace the will to carry out what is necessary to take over the world. Communism could never have taken over the world IMHO. The cold war was basically escalated by the States at every step because big business did not like communism (no free-market/trade) in other countries and also communistic ideals (socialism) spreading in their own. Communism eventually fails because change happens within countries as people realize it is an overly optimistic idealogy not suited for the flaws of humanity. Fascism on the other hand seems to only gain in power and extremity as long as the nation is at war (therefore ideal for world domination). In a dominated world, fascism's brutal suppression and un-paralleled propoganda would keep the government form in tact with the absence of outside governments. Communism is more likely to fail to maintain a world government because it is unnatural, going completely against our instinct of 'survival of the fittest' while fascism elevates this creed above all else.
Hitler came extremely close to taking over the world. Yes I have read all the theories and facts regarding how badly Germany was out-produced and out-numbered, but had they taken out Russia in the beginning of the war, and had Hitler thought long term in 1940(ex:continued the radar program rather then opting for research which could only be applied within one year), Germany would have been in a good position to take over. Better strategies could have resulted in the destruction of the RAF in 1940, and better anti-espionage efforts could have resulted in Germany winning the battle of the Atlantic. With England and Russia out of the picture Germany's forces could have been diverted to quelling guerilla partisan armies. Germany would have had all of the Russian territory and all its oil and easy access to the oil-rich middle-east. U.S.'s fall would be inevitable.
I haven't even mentioned what could have happened if Japan and Germany had coordinated a two front assault on Russia.
Thank god Germany didn't win the war, but anyone who says fascism is not a relevant government form is ignoring the fact that such a government came closer to taking over the world then any other.
Changes that should be made to the fascism patch:
Fascism when in a peace-time economy should be the same as an advanced despotism. This would be like Argentina's fascist government which didn't do much of anything but kill its own citizens. A peace-time fascist government usually lasts longer then a war-time fascist government, but seems to be far inferior to Communism and Democracy in the sense of expansionism and advancement.
Fascism when switched to war-time economy should suddenly get all of its bonuses. It should get huge production bonuses (2 extra shield on every square) and produce only veteran (elite in the case of militaristic civs) units. This may seem like over-kill but the penalty of fascism should be tremendous.
Under a war-time economy fascism should receive 'peace wariness'. This means Fascist governments would have to start conquering, because being at war is not enough to avert peace-wariness, the civ has to be taking cities to keep its citizens happy. A war of attrition was not what the Nazis were good at, that is why they lost to the Russians... The fascist civ would have to make huge gains and keep making them to keep its citizens happy under fascism. If a fascist civ starts losing cities its citizens will be roused by nationalism and all un-happiness should end. This should make for interesting games as the fascist civ see-saws back and forth between taking enemy cities, reaching a wall, cities going into disorder, losing cities, cities again producing, and again retaking the cities.
Under a war-time economy, fascism should be impervious to cultural assimilation and propoganda, but it should produce no culture of its own. This would lead to other civs not liking the fascist civ and allieing againt it. Fascist governments should be well-liked by monarchies, fascisms and despotisms as they are similar in that they are dictatorial as well.
Fascism should only be able to raze foreign cities. The captured workers could then be rushed to the civ's cities and used to rush production by killing them. This sounds about like what the Germans did.
Fascism should get double the effect out of scientific buildings during a war-time economy. This would make-up for the fact that they receive no culture from the buildings and also mimic the scientific achievements of the Nazis (V-2 rocket, jet fighters)
Conclusion: the effect of this type of fascist government would be that players who want to take over the world dramatically would choose it. It would not be a good civ to play if you are not a war-monger. Most civs will ally against you as you must constantly start wars, not even stopping once you have destroyed one civ. Under peace-time economy a fascist government should be susceptible to cultural assimilation, as this is what happened to fascist countries like Argentina (Pinochet overthrown largely due to foreign influences). During war-time a fascist civ would advance rapidly in science and have the best offensive military in the game. This would lead to it conquering many cities quickly before being challenged by many civs.
Fascism was probably the most efficient government type out there, but nobody else liked how they did it (especially the victims of the efficiency). There should be a way to model this in the game.
I don't have the game editor in front of me so I'm talikng off the cuff here.
make assmiliating foreign cities as difficult as possible, with fascism, national pride and the military nature of conquest make keeping foreigns happy very difficult, it should be easier to raze the city and start over. (the liebenstraum/poland theory)
science should be on a par with republic
trade should be the same as communism, there is capitalism but with a lot of government control/intervention.
minimal corruption (the secret police is a wonderful thing)
no war weariness
a diplomatic minus dealing with every other government (either out of fear or rumors of the nastiness you are doing in your own borders)
a happiness bonus for your cities (nothing brings people better that thinking they are surrounded by the enemy)
just some thoughts
I don't have the game editor in front of me so I'm talikng off the cuff here.
make assmiliating foreign cities as difficult as possible, with fascism, national pride and the military nature of conquest make keeping foreigns happy very difficult, it should be easier to raze the city and start over. (the liebenstraum/poland theory)
science should be on a par with republic
trade should be the same as communism, there is capitalism but with a lot of government control/intervention.
minimal corruption (the secret police is a wonderful thing)
no war weariness
a diplomatic minus dealing with every other government (either out of fear or rumors of the nastiness you are doing in your own borders)
a happiness bonus for your cities (nothing brings people better that thinking they are surrounded by the enemy)
just some thoughts
Blackadder
Rooted to the spot
This swastika = Fascism is ridiculous anyway, since the symbol of Fascism was the 'Faces', a bundle of wood with an axe which Roman senators carried about to show they had life over others.
The line of what is Fascist has become far too blured.
Now people ask was General Franco fascist or a right wing conservetive.
The actions of most countries during the Second World War can probably be explained by their past mentality.
Germany took after Prussian example of lightning war (see Franco-Prussian war and how long that took!)
Russia would always be paranoid (destroyed numerous times) and sacraficed huge numbers of people under the Czar's rule anyway. In fact, Stalin's starvation of the country thropugh his five years plan actually controled the amount of food S.U. produced.
The horrrible deaths of Hitler's victims (a very long list), I'm very sad to say, was nothing new. In England, Edward (Longshanks) I began an extermination of the Jewish people. The Spanish Inquiaition murdered thousands of 'non-believers' and their economy, so bolstered by these people, suffered greatly.
Conclusion,
1.Fascism economy is poor, but like communism, everyone usually has a job.
2.Science is normal.
3. Military, national pride should help conscription.
4. Is Fascism EXACTLY the same as Nazism or was it pressure and influence on Petain and Mussilini that caused this (I think Petain should be counted as a Nazi, for his and his fellows actions)
5.Penalty on propaganda in foreign cities, bonus defence in own.
6.Democracies suspicious but not anti Fascist if Communist states exist. (historically true)
7. No war dicontent but Purges should be introduced for Despot, Royalists, Fascists and Communists. (In case overthrown) This would cause selected citizan or soldier to disappear and is historically true: Hitler-Rommel, Stalin-most people (exclude Molotov).
.......... Perhaps a new government should also be included, Fake Democracy (I think you can guess what this is).
The line of what is Fascist has become far too blured.
Now people ask was General Franco fascist or a right wing conservetive.
The actions of most countries during the Second World War can probably be explained by their past mentality.
Germany took after Prussian example of lightning war (see Franco-Prussian war and how long that took!)
Russia would always be paranoid (destroyed numerous times) and sacraficed huge numbers of people under the Czar's rule anyway. In fact, Stalin's starvation of the country thropugh his five years plan actually controled the amount of food S.U. produced.
The horrrible deaths of Hitler's victims (a very long list), I'm very sad to say, was nothing new. In England, Edward (Longshanks) I began an extermination of the Jewish people. The Spanish Inquiaition murdered thousands of 'non-believers' and their economy, so bolstered by these people, suffered greatly.
Conclusion,
1.Fascism economy is poor, but like communism, everyone usually has a job.
2.Science is normal.
3. Military, national pride should help conscription.
4. Is Fascism EXACTLY the same as Nazism or was it pressure and influence on Petain and Mussilini that caused this (I think Petain should be counted as a Nazi, for his and his fellows actions)
5.Penalty on propaganda in foreign cities, bonus defence in own.
6.Democracies suspicious but not anti Fascist if Communist states exist. (historically true)
7. No war dicontent but Purges should be introduced for Despot, Royalists, Fascists and Communists. (In case overthrown) This would cause selected citizan or soldier to disappear and is historically true: Hitler-Rommel, Stalin-most people (exclude Molotov).
.......... Perhaps a new government should also be included, Fake Democracy (I think you can guess what this is).
Wolfshanze
CFC Historian
Okay, for all you people that think only Italy was Fascist...
Here you are, some 60 years after WWII, typing on your computer and saying Germany wasn't Fascist, and the Swastika has nothing to do with Fascism, drinking soda and gnawing on pretzels.
Meanwhile IN THE REAL WORLD... 60 years ago, President Roosevelt, Winston Churchill and Joseph Stalin were all talking about "defeating Fascism", and the Soviet's in particular kept refering to "the Fascist invaders" or the "Fascist Beast".
Since you people who know so darn well that Germany and the Swastika has nothing to do with Fascism, I suppose you're all going to tell me now that you're right, and Stalin, Roosevelt and Churchill weren't refering to Hitler at all, but were actually worried about Mussolini and Italy. Yes, all that talk about defeating Fascism, and getting "the Fascist Beast" out of the Soviet Union, was really all about Italy, because as you are all so much smarter in telling us who was and wasn't Fascist then the people who lived it 60 years ago, and CLEARLY refered to Germany as Fascist.
Why you're all brilliant... we should all bow down to YOUR definition of what Fascism is and isn't, and COMPLETELY IGNORE WHAT THE PEOPLE WHO LIVED IT, AND DEALT WITH IT, THOUGHT FASCISM WAS, WHICH WAS CLEARLY GERMANY.
You're all in the same boat as the politically correct sheep who want to completely ignore historical fact, and in WWII, EVERYBODY called Germany Fascist!
Then again, maybe you all went to the "Bill Clinton school of technicalities"... "It all depends on what your definition of the word 'IT' is". Nazis/Fascists are all extreme right-wing nationalist movements with totalitarian dictatorships.
Oh wait, Stalin was refering to the Italian invaders, not the Germans... my bad.
Here you are, some 60 years after WWII, typing on your computer and saying Germany wasn't Fascist, and the Swastika has nothing to do with Fascism, drinking soda and gnawing on pretzels.
Meanwhile IN THE REAL WORLD... 60 years ago, President Roosevelt, Winston Churchill and Joseph Stalin were all talking about "defeating Fascism", and the Soviet's in particular kept refering to "the Fascist invaders" or the "Fascist Beast".
Since you people who know so darn well that Germany and the Swastika has nothing to do with Fascism, I suppose you're all going to tell me now that you're right, and Stalin, Roosevelt and Churchill weren't refering to Hitler at all, but were actually worried about Mussolini and Italy. Yes, all that talk about defeating Fascism, and getting "the Fascist Beast" out of the Soviet Union, was really all about Italy, because as you are all so much smarter in telling us who was and wasn't Fascist then the people who lived it 60 years ago, and CLEARLY refered to Germany as Fascist.
Why you're all brilliant... we should all bow down to YOUR definition of what Fascism is and isn't, and COMPLETELY IGNORE WHAT THE PEOPLE WHO LIVED IT, AND DEALT WITH IT, THOUGHT FASCISM WAS, WHICH WAS CLEARLY GERMANY.
You're all in the same boat as the politically correct sheep who want to completely ignore historical fact, and in WWII, EVERYBODY called Germany Fascist!
Then again, maybe you all went to the "Bill Clinton school of technicalities"... "It all depends on what your definition of the word 'IT' is". Nazis/Fascists are all extreme right-wing nationalist movements with totalitarian dictatorships.
Oh wait, Stalin was refering to the Italian invaders, not the Germans... my bad.
Sigh.... a classic case of commenting on PART of a quote. Try reading all of the posts in this thread and then reading my post Wolf. If you actually bothered to do that you would notice that many some have pointed to the fact that Hitler is the default leader. That is what I was referring to in terms of poor taste. To suggest that Hitler is the typical Fascist leader is completely wrong, Nazism is not Fascism. Furthermore, I said "may have exercised poor taste." This simply means that I can understand some of the objections to your mod in relation to its Nazi imagery. That doesn't mean that I agree with their opinions. I was merely trying to defend your work.
Wolf, if you bothered to read any of the other posts, some have suggested that you are promoting Nazi views. Again, reading the COMPLETE post would show that I'm trying to show that you do not promote such views, but merely try to promote the understanding and knowledge of the Nazis (from a historical standpoint.)
Personally, I think that having Hitler as the default leader, and much of the Nazi imagery does not suit a Fascism patch. I firmly believe that Nazism and Fascism are not the same government type whatsoever. A better (fictional) example would be the government in the recent Starship Troopers movie. I would have used images similar to the movie.
Calling a dog a cat does not make it so. Just because people of the day called the German government Fascism doesn't mean it actually was.
Although they share several characteristics, Fascism does not equal Nazism. Just because the Allies termed it Fascism, doesn't mean it was Fascism. Furthermore, Fascism was unfortunately used as a synonym for Nazism by the governments in those days. The result was that the public began to use both words to mean the same thing, which is incorrect.
There have been many examples of governments misusing words in their propoganda and law making. Just look at the states Narcotics laws, which mysteriously include Marijuana, which is not a Narcotic by pharmacological definition. Yet, to the government and the general public Narcotic=Marijuana and everyother prohibited drug
1. Fascism does not promote or encourage persecution of minorities. As soon as a government starts doing this, its ceases to be Fascist.
2. Fascism says nothing about the economic model of a country. It simply espouses the unified effort of the people for the betterment of the state and not for their own.
3. While Fascism is indeed nationalistic, it is not inherently totalitarian. Views contrary to that of the government may be expressed (perhaps with social disapproval) but RESPONSIBILITY for such expression is strongly enforced. Once you have secret police, you begin persecuting minorities, again, ceasing to be Fascist.
4. Once a people develop an almost Godlike cult around a leader, like the cult of personality that arose around Hitler, the government and the nation cease to be Fascist.
5. I understand that what I have said here may be vague, but that is how all government theory works. I deal with themes and generalities. The specifics are not touched upon. Just look at the definitions for Communism and Democracy and how vague they are.
6. Nazism is a classification that was based not upon purely theoretical thought, but more on historical events. Thus, it is more specific in its definition: Persecution of minorities, live for the state, wipe out contradiciting opinions and related movements and last but not least, a cult of personality around a single leader.
Wolf, you of all people should realize the difference between Nazism and Fascism considering you've made the mod and its website (with some research I assume.) Or perhaps you pieced it together from info on sugar packets.
Wow, that was rather long winded, Please feel free to quote single words or if you feel up to it, half sentences and comment upon them.
Hitro
Feistus Raclettus
Sgt Zimm: Nazism is (or was) fascism, the German Fascism to be precise. Unlike communism, fascism is no common ideology, the different movements which were later referred to as "fascist" evolved more or less at the same time. Mussolini took over power in the early 20ies, at that time the Nazi Party already existed. In 1923 Hitler's coup attempt failed. The word "fascist" originates in the Italian movement, but was soon applied to others (in particular the German movement) too. In general fascists are people who believe in strengh as the basic value. Furthermore significant for the fascist system(s) was the leadership of one (and only one) leader as head of a centralist government.
Besides these (basic) facts there is no general definition of fascism. The Nazis were called fascists, that doesn't mean they were exactly like Mussolinis blackshirts, but the word "fascism" has been used as a broader definition from the beginning, so that means it can also be modeled after Germany in the game.
And Wolfshanze's definetily right about taking Hitler as the leader. He is by far the best known fascist leader.
Besides these (basic) facts there is no general definition of fascism. The Nazis were called fascists, that doesn't mean they were exactly like Mussolinis blackshirts, but the word "fascism" has been used as a broader definition from the beginning, so that means it can also be modeled after Germany in the game.
And Wolfshanze's definetily right about taking Hitler as the leader. He is by far the best known fascist leader.
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