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Fastest Science Victory

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by Lightning5555, Feb 14, 2016.

  1. consentient

    consentient Domination!

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    Yeah, it does, but I rarely do it if I'm not confident I can hang onto a permanent alliance, as I have had too much trouble with backstabbing CS! I tend to focus on CS more than any other player I've yet encountered, I guess :D
     
  2. adcarrymaokai

    adcarrymaokai Emperor

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    When is WF proposed in your games? If WF is the first resolution, it is 100% possible to win for the human player. I don't even remember if I ever lost WF with a 4-city Tradition peaceful game. Just go full production and put all cities to WF, and it is a guaranteed win. You can even stop at 1000 hammers because AI's won't beat that.
     
  3. stormtrooper412

    stormtrooper412 Peacemongering Turtlesaur

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    yes that is how it works. Same if a road goes through a tile owned by another civ, if you have open borders with them, it will form a connection

    also, re: World Fair. If the hammers spread around, you might win even with 600-ish but 1000 is enough in most games. Though I remember one game where I put 1100 and still lost to a very wide AI
     
  4. consentient

    consentient Domination!

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    This is simply not my experience. Many times I've proposed WF at the first WC to gain diplo, and despite good play and an above average start, many times the runaway has 5 or more times the manufactured goods rating as me. In so many situations, I've thought, 'OK, I'll give it a shot', bribe the top 2 or 3 manufacturers to go to war, and go full production, even starving the cities, and using a great artist to maximise.

    And, sadly, many times I am beaten to it.

    I wish my experience were as comfortable as what you're describing :)
     
  5. Babinski

    Babinski Chieftain

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    I share ascarrymaokais and others view on the subject. I have never had trouble winning WF if proposed first. I would say that AI almost never put more than 800 hammers into it, but more common below 700. I wonder how your play differs.
     
  6. vadalaz

    vadalaz Emperor

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    Won the Huns game on turn 193, HOF rules. Very fast game turn-wise, but really slow in terms of actual time played. 11 cities require a lot of micromanagement, so does war on Deity. It was tons of fun though. This might've been the first time I actually built a Zoo in an SV.

    Spoiler :
    I think 11 is too wide for a Standard map. It worked much better on Chieftain because I could grow non-stop without any happiness issues, plus I had ToA and constant WLTKDs after I had secured every luxury on the map. But in this Deity game I got a bit unlucky with the luxuries, because there was only one Pearls tile on the map and I couldn't afford to plant a city there anymore. I could've gifted a city to an AI and bought Pearls from them but I didn't think it was worth the 5% science penalty, plus at the time I wasn't certain anyone would even be willing to trade with me. I liberated Harun which scored me some good guy points though. Had DoFs with Indonesia and Arabia until they denounced me around T185.

    ToA would've been great after Universal Suffrage, but the best early wonder to capture is Stonehenge, I think. Religion played a huge part in this game, but it took a while to get things going, I think I got 3rd or 4th religion around T75-80. I planned to get 3500 faith for 2 GS + 1 GE, and it was too late when I remembered you can't do that when you play Liberty. I'm pretty sure I could've gotten 5000 faith for 3 GSs if I built Temples, that's an extra 22 fpt right there. Big mistake, because in the end I only needed one scientist from Hubble.

    The wonders I did get were Pyramids, Petra (Marrakech, captured), Hanging Gardens (Persepolis, captured), Borobudur, Oracle (T105!), Machu Picchu, LToP, Sistine, SoL, Big Ben, PT and Hubble. Missed Globe Theatre by 2 turns - I went for it because I thought 2 cultural CSs might not be enough to get all the policies in time with 11 cities. I had all the policies by turn 183 though.

    Happiness was the main issue. I ran out of global happiness very quickly and I had to avoid growth for many turns. That's why I didn't take the food from specialists tenet at first and chose Mint/Bank happiness instead. To get a food boost I went Fertilizer and got it around the same time as Universal Suffrage, which ended all the happiness troubles at once.

    Gold was pretty low at first, but in the end I was actually making more than in the Chieftain game, ~300 gpt was from peace deals which can get pretty juicy near the end. Having a mix of peacemongers and moderate warmongers was perfect to keep the world fighting. No stupid chain-denouncements and 6-7x DoWs.

    The game would've ended faster if I could build Hubble and Apollo quicker, but with city sizes that low I couldn't find any more production for it. Tradition's faith-bought GEs are just unfair. ;)

    Some timings:

    T83 10-city NC
    T97 Education
    T111 Secularism
    T139 Sci Theory
    T154 Fertilizer (1 bulb for Radio)
    T166 Plastics (2 bulbs)
    T193 victory
     
  7. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    is it viable to get fertilizer before plastics? and what about factories before s.t.? i do that a lot in my games, but GS are fixed in ackenmod/nq mod so that makes those choices that much more viable.

    i really like fast ideology w/ rushbuying 3 factories just because getting the happiness earlier allows me to grow that much easier. i always have problems with smiles in ren/before ideo because i despise building any happy building beyond circuses.

    that is highly impressive vadalaz. i could see this working on prince or king, but on deity.. holy moly.

    taking the cities is possible on maps like great plains, but micromanaging the happiness/growth/specialists and gpt seems like extremely hard to do right. lots of work with 11 cities. how long did this take you in actualy playtime? really curious.
     
  8. consentient

    consentient Domination!

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    Maybe I take the wrong tech path. I confess I've never had enough crystal meth laying around to stay awake for a full LP of a SV, so I'm often guessing my way through SVs. A couple of times I've gotten very lucky, but most often my SVs are way slower than my CVs (maybe not surprising on 2nd thought).

    After Sci Theory, I normally go straight for Modern Era via Oxford into Radio, and then head for Fertiliser to increase the food yields. Not sure after that. But WC in my games is usually onto the 2nd or 3rd round of talks by then. I seldom hit Modern before T150 and I'm guessing there is something obvious I'm missing which is a good source of hammers. Do you use caravans for hammers at that point or what?

    EDIT: Another thought I'm having is what is the ultimate unachievable turn time for a SV on Deity? Is T150 even remotely possible?

    The engineers and pilots trying to break the sound barrier invented all kinds of stories to say why people couldn't go beyond Mach 1 and clearly a different approach was all that was required.

    What is the earliest that the AI get Education for example? If the AI have awesome dirt etc., can they tech it in order for it to be stolen via Assyria's UA before it can be teched normally by the human player on god dirt?

    I'm sure you're all wracking your brains trying to get quicker and quicker. I have no idea how you guys manage such quick times anyway. I'm looking at Vadalaz's SSs and it all seems really quite unbelievable.

    You've all settled on using the Western end of Great Plains maps as the best map choice, but is there conceivably one that is better where Cargo Ships can be abused?
     
  9. Babinski

    Babinski Chieftain

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    Congratulations! And well deserved!

    I like how you stucked with your tactics and proved that they worked. Unfortunally I have lost the motivation to roll any more good maps so I am happy with my t193. I am looking forward to a sub 190 game tho, which I am sure you will present, valadaz :goodjob:.
     
  10. vadalaz

    vadalaz Emperor

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    I love to go Fertilizer first when I'm playing wide. It's a significant boost to growth that comes after you get a boost to happiness from ideology, so to me it just feels natural to take it. I think a wide empire allows you to bulb more GSs pre-Plastics than a tall one. A double bulb into Plastics makes sure you get your labs up quickly enough despite the detour.

    I haven't experimented much with Indu before Sci Theory. It's the quickest path to factory hammers, max CS bonuses and ideology, so I think it's a good play in theory. It's just that I don't like the coal lottery and I never seem to have enough gold to rush-buy the factories anyway.

    Not sure about the total playtime. Maybe 8 hours? Is there a way to check?
     
  11. belligerent

    belligerent Chieftain

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    I second the comments from others that this thread is helpful beyond super-fast HOF SVs. For those of us still transitioning to Deity play, there's a wealth of knowledge here. I used Babinski's Poland map posted in this thread to win my first Deity game in about a half-dozen attempts or more, and in just 239 turns. This is my fastest standard victory on any difficulty. Obviously, that map is loaded, but it's good to finally work through the mechanics all the way to the finish.

    I've gotten (mostly) through two Deity games previously, once out-bulbed by about three turns. One game I got conquered in the end game by an ideological enemy which was really frustrating as that game was in hand. I haven't had much success with my favorite dom strategies on Deity yet, but these science games help with the other mechanics quite a bit.

    Below are some timings and thoughts as well as the victory SS for the board to pick apart.

    Went four-city tradition. I played without looking at the other map previews so this was a clean run (outside of one reload and several autosave reloads as my computer crashed). In retrospect, I should've settled Uluru, but went for the two luxes down south by the mountains. Lodz never got up to enough size and that probably would've helped.

    Relevant final stats:
    Win turn: 239
    Final science: 1424
    Total scientists: 14
    Pops: 41 - 27 - 25 - 21 (I think) see screen shot.

    50 - founded fourth city (4 workers by steal, 1 hard built, built two more shortly after)
    60 - first food caravan to capital
    69 - finished tradition
    76 - 4th library
    88 - NC complete
    92 - Patronage opener +1
    100 - populations: 13, 10, 7, 4
    105 - Education
    Somewhere in there I founded religion: Desert Folklore (took instead of silver faith because I figured I would be working more desert tiles); tithe (IR taken); S2P; peace gardens; RT.

    Never went to war the whole game, so S2P worked.

    143 - missed LToP by one turn
    148 - Sci Theory
    150 - pops - 23, 15, 15, 10
    152 - Porcelain Tower
    158 - Oxford Radio
    159 - Freedom (1st ideology)
    168 - WF starts, popped GA all trades internal with production already.
    173 - won WF, popped another GA, got a happiness golden age, for a total of 47 out of 48 of the next turns in golden age. Popped two GW to finish Freedom, popped another GW to finish rationalism.
    179 - finished Rationalism with above GW, use free tech for Plastics
    195 - science over 1000, started bulbing
    213 - finished Commerce
    239 - bulbed last GS at 238 to finish nanotech; bought SS stasis chamber on 239.

    Bulbed a total of 14 GS throughout.

    Things that I could do better:

    - Settle a better 4th city spot. Lodz was OK where it was, but more pop and faith from Uluru would've gotten me more science and probably one more GS.
    - Focus on Faith CS earlier to get more faith, again another GS could've shaved 9 turns or so.
    - LToP miss cost me one or two GS probably, a few more turns there.
    - I don't think I needed to win WF, thus that 30 turns of production cost me growth in the midgame which probably slowed me down from a total science perspective as well. Just with Poland, I would've finished Rationalism, Freedom and Patronage in time to win... WF more or less got me all the way through Commerce which wasn't really necessary. Agree here?
    - I'm pretty good at micromanagement of cities, but little things like making sure every specialist spot is full before bulbing then shifting around as needed makes a difference, I'm sure. I didn't do that, and probably didn't work all of my specialist spots early enough, focusing on as many food tiles as I could in most cities.

    Thanks again for all the good posts here. I learned a lot and got a (loaded) Deity win under my belt.

    Bah, screenshot didn't work. I'll reload the game and see if I can get a screenshot up later.
     
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  12. garmeth

    garmeth Chieftain

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    Wow, congrats man. How do you go from plastics to victory so quickly? How many GS does it take to do plastics to victory in less than 40 turns with ~1100 BPT? This is the weakest part of my game atm. Did you have RAs pop after plastics?
     
  13. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    tx for answering to quickly. i almost always play 5 or 6 city trad if i go for good finishing times to picking fert seems very natural to me. the same goes for coal - it's just much more common when you have 5-6 cities. i honestly like mining some of my river hills just so i have a high chance of getting coal instantly. often times i will spawn a prophet shortly before getting indu and then plant a holy site on coal. you can get insane ideology times with that. i, too often lack the gold for 3 factories though. this requires very nice trading partners and good gpt, also sufficient smiles because you can't invest much in CS.
     
  14. Acken

    Acken Deity

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    Both impressive and creative vadalaz congratulations.
     
  15. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    @belligerent

    239 is absolutely amazing for first time Deity SV. you can pat yourself on the back for that! my first SV was around T300 :lol:
     
  16. belligerent

    belligerent Chieftain

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    Thanks! I had a lot of help... from this thread!
     
  17. vadalaz

    vadalaz Emperor

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    Thanks for the kind words everyone. :)

    I didn't sign any RAs this game. My post-Plastics game was pretty straightforward:

    - Buy 4 labs in cities that are building SoL, Big Ben, PT and Oxford and 2 more in cities that have really bad production. Other cities hard-build labs in 12-13 turns.
    - After labs, the cities finish whatever they were building pre-Plastics, typically a Stock Exchange or a Bank.
    - Bulbed 3 GSs for Rocketry and timed it with SoL free policy -> Rationalism finisher used on Satellites. Rush-buy factories in the capital and highest production expo, build Hubble and Apollo.
    - Other cities build Research and I try to assign all of their citizens to either a specialist slot or a trading post.
    - Start bulbing the rest of my GSs when there were 3 or 4 turns left on Hubble. Bulb to SS booster tech first to buy those, then the rest of the techs. One more turn to buy and connect the remaining SS parts.

    Not sure how many GSs you need on 4 cities. I think I read somewhere on this forum that you need around 150k beakers after Plastics if you have 4 cities. So to finish in 40 turns with an average of 1100bpt and no RAs you'd need

    44000 + 1000*8*x = 150000 (Rationalism bonus doesn't count towards bulbs, so I'm using 1000 instead of 1100)
    x = 13.25.

    14 bulbs. That feels about right.
     
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  18. poxpower

    poxpower Prince

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    Has anyone tried Prince difficulty?
    It might be the actual hardest. You don't get as much free happiness as Settler, but the AI is still really terrible. It's turn 75 now and none of them have a positive income. I can't even sell a horse and as a result my economy is garbage. They also don't clear any camps. There's barbarians everywhere destroying everything lol.
     
  19. consentient

    consentient Domination!

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    Yeah, a friend of mine asking for advice wanted me to make him a short video on Emperor. I was so completely out of my element that everything about my game was worse than in a bad game on Deity by T65.

    Domination might be strictly easier on easier difficulties, but most other VCs are just very weird. Even if you want to build Archers, it takes forever because your cities will be smaller.
     
  20. Iamteehee

    Iamteehee I only play SV

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    I tried it once. I think with a strong enough start, prince is easier than diety, but I think I enjoy playing Diety more. It just feels very weird to me being unable to have a good early economy, steal workers etc.

    I tried it with awhile ago this save, resulting in a t218 SV. I think I could probably get sub200 with this map, but it just doesn't seem very fun. This map is very strong though, I think faith buying 4 GS is possible if you take divine inspiration.
     

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