FDR and World War II

[civ_king]

Some strange ideas in this thread. People seriously believe the Axis powers could have won? Defeat was inevitable, it's just a matter of timing. The Axis powers made the mistake of believing their opponents lacked the will to fight. They were wrong. Many believed the UK would roll over and die, they didn't. The Japanese believed the americans lacked the passion to fight as fervently as they do.

And after they realized their opponents would fight, they tried for peace agreements in their favor. They wanted to keep all their spoils of war. They severely underestimated the allies, and I just can't see how any victory was possible.

And California? The western U.S. was not some third world country. They had paved roads, railroads, and everything the east coast had. We even had paved roads in my city and we were out in the middle of the desert. I'm pretty sure California was a major source of U.S. GDP even back then.

If Germany didn't fight the USSR they could have won, the USSR only sucked up 60%+ of soldiers/resources

 

[Lord Baal]

If Germany didn't fight the USSR they could have won, the USSR only sucked up 60%+ of soldiers/resources

No. This is wrong, for reasons I have posted so many times that I am getting very sick and tired of going over them again and again. The UK alone had greater productive capacity than Gemany and Japan combined. It was also unassailable; in plain English, it could not be invaded by any of the Axis powers, and it's supply lines could not be cut. They could be lengthened - an invasion of Malta would have closed the Suez Canal to Britain as effectively as capturing the Canal itself - but not cut off completely.

The British Empire was capable of defeating Germany, Italy and Japan on its own. Japan was a bigger threat to it than the other two, simply due to distance and length of supply lines, but once Germany and Italy were taken care of it could have turned its attention to Japan. With American assistance, the Axis was doomed to be defeated militarily, rather than starved out until they collapsed economically as Britain would have done to them. But the disintegration of the Reich would have taken place before 1950, even assuming that the US and USSR miraculously did not get involved. The only Axis regime that stood a chance of survival was Italy, and not under Mussolini.

 

[Verbose]

No. This is wrong, for reasons I have posted so many times that I am getting very sick and tired of going over them again and again. The UK alone had greater productive capacity than Gemany and Japan combined. It was also unassailable; in plain English, it could not be invaded by any of the Axis powers, and it's supply lines could not be cut. They could be lengthened - an invasion of Malta would have closed the Suez Canal to Britain as effectively as capturing the Canal itself - but not cut off completely.

Quite. And iirc due to the risks involved the UK didn't run convoys through the Med unless there was a specific reason, such as to supply Malta, anyway. Otherwise things were shipped around Africa etc., entirely avoiding the cramped and contested conditions in the Med.

 

[Dragonlord]

It was also unassailable; in plain English, it could not be invaded by any of the Axis powers, and it's supply lines could not be cut. They could be lengthened - an invasion of Malta would have closed the Suez Canal to Britain as effectively as capturing the Canal itself - but not cut off completely.

Hmmm...IIRC the U-boat wolfpacks were doing quite well at cutting England's supply lines until the US helped out with a bunch of destroyers (50, IIRC), not to mention lots of slapped-together freighters (Liberty ships).
I don't think it was quite as cut-and-dried as you make out, here. Churchill himself counted the war as won when the US entered the war, not before.

And, BTW, whenever production capacity is argued, it seems that only the capacity of the pre-war Reich is counted. How about the added capacity of the conquered territories? Czechoslovakia had quite a military production capacity, as did France.

Comparing a continental Europe subjected to the Nazis, with no war against Russia and a neutral US, to an isolated Britain with it's supply lines undere constant U-boat attack .... seems a much more even proposition to me than you are making out.

Of course, this is all smoke - Hitler was always going to attack Russia, it was at the core of his philosophy. Just saying...

 

[Ferrosol]

Hmmm...IIRC the U-boat wolfpacks were doing quite well at cutting England's supply lines until the US helped out with a bunch of destroyers (50, IIRC), not to mention lots of slapped-together freighters (Liberty ships).
I don't think it was quite as cut-and-dried as you make out, here. Churchill himself counted the war as won when the US entered the war, not before.

And, BTW, whenever production capacity is argued, it seems that only the capacity of the pre-war Reich is counted. How about the added capacity of the conquered territories? Czechoslovakia had quite a military production capacity, as did France.

Comparing a continental Europe subjected to the Nazis, with no war against Russia and a neutral US, to an isolated Britain with it's supply lines undere constant U-boat attack .... seems a much more even proposition to me than you are making out.

Of course, this is all smoke - Hitler was always going to attack Russia, it was at the core of his philosophy. Just saying...

To take a look at a couple of your points first of all the U-Boat war was spectacularly ineffective. At best germany managed to sink something like 1% of all cargo being shipped to Britain. Now that said it did impose some strategic attrition on Britain (forcing ships into convoys, the diversion of resources into building cheap ASW frigates etc) but it was not particularly cost effective.
Secondly if its the Churchill quote I am thinking of I think it was something like "on our own we cannot lose, with the Americans on our side we cannot fail to win" which is rather accurate given the strategic circumstances.
Thirdly if Germany gets to add in its occupied territories can Britain throw in the dominons as well? I would bet they could contribute as much as if not more than occupied Europe.

On your next point I would say Germany would find it near impossible to be able to invade Britain before 1942 at the earliest and by that point who knows what the Soviets are up too and remember a big part of the Manhattan Project came from British Scientists (or at least scientists who defected to Britain first and then joined the US bomb) so who is to say we won't see a Lancaster dropping A-Bombs on Berlin and Nuremberg in 1945.

I actually agree with you on your final point in fact one of the secondary goals of the invasion of Russia was to knock out Britains last remaining potential ally on the continent and force them to make a peace treaty.

 

[BuckyRea]

"Should we have declared war on Nazi Germany early and without congressional approval?"

I'm coming in late to this discussion and have yet to read through the 80+ responses so far. But I assume so far posters here in this thread have already pointed out that

1- This is an international board, so some of "we" did get in early on the war with Germany (and that probably some of us live in countries that were on the Axis side)

2- In the US there is no way to "declare war" without "Congressional approval"

and 3- the US did, in fact, spend time fighting Germany on the seas prior to Dec 7th 1941

Am I right?

 

[ZeletDude]

"Should we have declared war on Nazi Germany early and without congressional approval?"

I'm coming in late to this discussion and have yet to read through the 80+ responses so far. But I assume so far posters here in this thread have already pointed out that

1- This is an international board, so some of "we" did get in early on the war with Germany (and that probably some of us live in countries that were on the Axis side)

2- In the US there is no way to "declare war" without "Congressional approval"

and 3- the US did, in fact, spend time fighting Germany on the seas prior to Dec 7th 1941

Am I right?

People have pointed out 2 and 3 but I don't think 1.

 

[civ_king]

"Should we have declared war on Nazi Germany early and without congressional approval?"

I'm coming in late to this discussion and have yet to read through the 80+ responses so far. But I assume so far posters here in this thread have already pointed out that

1- This is an international board, so some of "we" did get in early on the war with Germany (and that probably some of us live in countries that were on the Axis side)

2- In the US there is no way to "declare war" without "Congressional approval"

and 3- the US did, in fact, spend time fighting Germany on the seas prior to Dec 7th 1941

Am I right?

IIRC The Third Reich declared war on the United States of America on December 11th 1941

 

[Quackers]

No. This is wrong, for reasons I have posted so many times that I am getting very sick and tired of going over them again and again. The UK alone had greater productive capacity than Gemany and Japan combined. It was also unassailable; in plain English, it could not be invaded by any of the Axis powers, and it's supply lines could not be cut. They could be lengthened - an invasion of Malta would have closed the Suez Canal to Britain as effectively as capturing the Canal itself - but not cut off completely.

The British Empire was capable of defeating Germany, Italy and Japan on its own. Japan was a bigger threat to it than the other two, simply due to distance and length of supply lines, but once Germany and Italy were taken care of it could have turned its attention to Japan. With American assistance, the Axis was doomed to be defeated militarily, rather than starved out until they collapsed economically as Britain would have done to them. But the disintegration of the Reich would have taken place before 1950, even assuming that the US and USSR miraculously did not get involved. The only Axis regime that stood a chance of survival was Italy, and not under Mussolini.

Never heard this view before. Why is that?

Where are you getting this from?

 

[GhostWriter16]

Never heard this view before. Why is that?

Where are you getting this from?

I agree with Quackers. No offense to British people, but you aren't the modern US on the power demographic. You would have had a tough time with Germany alone. I agree Churchill would never surrender, but eventually the nation would have been rubble.

What we should have done was jump into the war right away, while Russia was still Axis, defend Britain and France, and taken them all out. Years it would have taken, but eventually an Atom Bomb would have still ended the thing, and we would have stopped the Cold War.

 

[ZeletDude]

I agree with Quackers. No offense to British people, but you aren't the modern US on the power demographic. You would have had a tough time with Germany alone. I agree Churchill would never surrender, but eventually the nation would have been rubble.

What we should have done was jump into the war right away, while Russia was still Axis, defend Britain and France, and taken them all out. Years it would have taken, but eventually an Atom Bomb would have still ended the thing, and we would have stopped the Cold War.

Again this would not work, No one wanted a war in America, it was very isolationist. Plus a few other problems.. with your theory....

 

[madviking]

Russia on the Axis? WTH?

 

[ZeletDude]

Russia on the Axis? WTH?

My words exactly.. I think he is meaning the Non Agression pact Germany and Russia had but that was by no means an alliance....and they were never on the Axis..

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

I agree with Quackers. No offense to British people, but you aren't the modern US on the power demographic. You would have had a tough time with Germany alone. I agree Churchill would never surrender, but eventually the nation would have been rubble.

If Churchill remained in office long after this madness began.

while Russia was still Axis

I never get tired of this one.

Oh, wait. Yeah I do.

 

[Quackers]

I agree with Quackers. No offense to British people, but you aren't the modern US on the power demographic. You would have had a tough time with Germany alone. I agree Churchill would never surrender, but eventually the nation would have been rubble.

What we should have done was jump into the war right away, while Russia was still Axis, defend Britain and France, and taken them all out. Years it would have taken, but eventually an Atom Bomb would have still ended the thing, and we would have stopped the Cold War.

Well in my whole life i have never encounteted Lord's position. Maybe the many alarmist documentaries which seemed to exaggerate Britain's position as the lone opponent of the Nazi's in the West have shaped my postion. It felt like Britain was on the brink of the abyss, we were about to be annhilated by evil Germany and we were sitting ducks. But Hitlers obession with the Judeo-Bolshevik East focused there attention onto Soviet Russia and saved us. I always believed without the Americans assistance we would of never won the war. That if Hitler had decided to assault Britain we would of been finished.

 

[GhostWriter16]

Well in my whole life i have never encounteted Lord's position. Maybe the many alarmist documentaries which seemed to exaggerate Britain's position as the lone opponent of the Nazi's in the West have shaped my postion. It felt like Britain was on the brink of the abyss, we were about to be annhilated by evil Germany and we were sitting ducks. But Hitlers obession with the Judeo-Bolshevik East focused there attention onto Soviet Russia and saved us. I always believed without the Americans assistance we would of never won the war. That if Hitler had decided to assault Britain we would of been finished.

I think I'm somewhere between you and Lord, but closer to your side. England had no chance, but it would've taken a long time for the Axis to take them. Its just not easy to invade a country. France (Who was connected continentally) had British help, never had a chance against Germany, but it still took 2 years to conquer them. It would have taken at least two more (Until 1943, probably 1944) to finish them. However, If America joined any later, it would have been inevitable, as it would have been if Germany did not attack Russia.

 

[ZeletDude]

I think I'm somewhere between you and Lord, but closer to your side. England had no chance, but it would've taken a long time for the Axis to take them. Its just not easy to invade a country. France (Who was connected continentally) had British help, never had a chance against Germany, but it still took 2 years to conquer them. It would have taken at least two more (Until 1943, probably 1944) to finish them. However, If America joined any later, it would have been inevitable, as it would have been if Germany did not attack Russia.

It didn't take TWO years to conquer France! It took a matter of a few months once the Germans entered the low Countries (But it may seem like a while because of the Phony War). But still it did not take 2 years. It started in May 1940 and I believe it ended sometime in June.

 

[GhostWriter16]

It didn't take TWO years to conquer France! It took a matter of a few months once the Germans entered the low Countries (But it may seem like a while because of the Phony War). But still it did not take 2 years. It started in May 1940 and I believe it ended sometime in June.

The war started in '39, whether Germany was attacking France.

That aside, even by location alone, England was a tough nut to crack. But it would have happened eventually.

 

[ZeletDude]

The war started in '39, whether Germany was attacking France.

That aside, even by location alone, England was a tough nut to crack. But it would have happened eventually.

Still, That would be about 9 months from the time the war started to when France fell.

And Britain would have not fallen, Germany had NO way of invading Britain with the Royal Navy guarding the British Isles..I don't care how much the luftwaffe could control the airs still it'd be one heck a problem getting German troops over the English Channel into Britain.

 

[madviking]

Without air superiority over Britain, Operation Sea Lion would have been a horrendous disaster.

Look at D-Day. The Allies had air superiority over France and were able to successfully invade Normandy. Can't say the same for the Nazis and their invasion plans.