[Feature] Additional Wonders

[canexpthat]

Noob here. Just some ideas for industrial and later era wonders from East Asia.

Iwakura Mission - Represents Japan's industrial catch up in the late 1800s. But in the civ game, it doesn't have to necessarily represent "catch up" but simply learning from others, a la the old school Great Library and Internet wonders that gave you any tech that some number of other civilizations had. +2 free scientists or something like that? EDIT: or something like the old school Great Library or the Japanese UP, like some research benefit for techs that X number of other civilizations already have or are willing to trade with you. Obsoletes at some point in the late industrial/early modern era.

Zaibatsu System - Basically Japan's version of industrial Rockefellers and Vanderbuilts that ruled and drove or represented the country's industrialization. Something production related, like a +15% boost to hammers in the X largest cities, or cheaper factories or something like that.

Akihabara - A commerce boost? Or a culture or foreign relations boost if it's supposed to represent the export of anime/manga.

For the modern era, I agree with a previous poster that the Shinkansen (bullet train system) and Tokyo Tower are the real symbols of the modern Japanese economy.

Hallyu - Boosted Korean pop culture in East and Southeast Asia significantly and the aftereffects of that success are still felt today. A culture bonus and/or a foreign relations bonus.

Three Gorges Dam - I think this existed in old school Civ 4, but I guess it was removed in the original Rhye's and Fall?

Tiananmen Square - From a previous poster also. +x free statesmen, and something spy related?

Lujiazui - China's version of a Wall Street wonder. Either a commerce bonus, a tax gold bonus, or a merchant bonus.

Bird's Nest Stadium - Represents the 2008 Beijing Olympics, which can be said to represent China's official entrance onto the world stage as a 21st century super power. A culture bonus.

798 Art Zone - Probably the center of the modern Chinese art scene. Wikipedia says "What began as a small collection of ephemeral studios and other work spaces has become the third most visited destination in Beijing, after the Forbidden City and the Great Wall.[8]" A culture bonus.

 

[Temujin8k]

Zaibatsu System - Basically Japan's version of industrial Rockefellers and Vanderbuilts that ruled and drove or represented the country's industrialization. Something production related, like a +15% boost to hammers in the X largest cities, or cheaper factories or something like that.

The Japanese UB is already called Zaibatsu, basically a cheaper factory with a free Engineer and +1 commerce to water tiles.

 

[Lokki242]

Three Gorges was replaced with a different dam I believe

 

[Leoreth]

It's the Itaipu Dam now.

There are a couple of dams that would deserve being a wonder; the Hoover Dam is a traditional civ wonder, and things like the Aswan Dam are basically on the same level. There was some discussion about more realistic dams in the past that I would like to revisit, maybe it is a good idea to represent this as a national wonder or otherwise limited building?

There's a bug with the Hermitage. If you steal a tech from another civ via espionage, the dialog box shows all 141 techs, with only the actually possible ones showing correct costs; the rest are shown at zero cost. And if you click one of those zero-cost techs you actually get them. So I can like, get a Digital Era tech at no cost in the late 1700's even when you still just entered the Industrial Era.

To reproduce, there must be an eligible tech to steal from another civ, as that's the only way to make the Steal Technology available. Espionage points can be WB-ed so it's not much of a trouble.

Strange, I'll look into it.

 

[Enyavar]

In my opinion, the Hydro Plant and the assorted Wonder come WAY too late. Sure, the tech tree is historically accurate, but it is inconvenient in gameplay:

If I can afford the luxury, I don't build Coal Plants at all and wait for Hydro Plants or the Wonder Dam which comes along three tech tiers later. In the meantime, I often build stuff that can't work because it needs power but has none. Especially factories.
If I can't afford the luxury and need energy NOW, I build Coal Plants everywhere as soon as possible - which means that additional Hydro Plants are worthless. (And river cities are productive cities, so they should get Levees, Factories and Plants early). The same goes for solar plants, which are more expensive than Coal Plants: If a city doesn't have power when Solar Plants become available, then this city is likely to be small, unproductive, has a large health overflow and can easily afford a Coal Plant. Except maybe the National Park city.
And don't let me start on the ITER. Have never built this worthless wonder, even when I could.

Could there be a mechanic that deletes Coal Plants from cities that build a Hydro/Nuclear/Solar Plant, so that the unhealthiness goes away? Or, otherwise, Coal Plants are deleted from cities after many turns of use (80? 100 turns?), and the owners either have to build a new one or switch to Renewable?

 

[merijn_v1]

Maybe a project that removes Coal plants, similar like how religious persecution used to be a project. I would call it something like "dismantle coal plant". I can also image a nuclear powerplant version.

 

[Finbros]

I'd prefer adding some usefulness to additional plants rather than removing them: giving to them bonus with tech, wonder or project, spreading of excess electricty to neighbouring cities..
(And coal plants have a nice event with +4 hammers)

 

[Leoreth]

I think there's a misunderstanding here: even if the cities already have a Coal Plant, building a plant with clean power will give the city clean power.

 

[canexpthat]

I think there's a misunderstanding here: even if the cities already have a Coal Plant, building a plant with clean power will give the city clean power.

Ok, wow, I never knew this. Thank you!

Was this the case in vanilla Civ IV, too? Was/Is this explained anywhere in the game or Civiliopedia?

In my opinion, the Hydro Plant and the assorted Wonder come WAY too late. Sure, the tech tree is historically accurate, but it is inconvenient in gameplay:

I agree with it coming too late. Wikipedia says hydro plants became numerous in the late 1800s. "By 1920 as 40% of the power produced in the United States was hydroelectric...". But when I play Civ, I never associate hydro power with the industrial age but more of a modern age thing.

Checking the Civilopedia in DoC, it looks like it has kept the "legacy" of hydro power requiring the Electronics tech from vanilla Civ. Perhaps it can be bumped back up to Infrastructure or even all the way to Engine (the same tech needed for coal power) as according to Wikipedia, the first commercial coal power plants were also developed in the late 1800s. Hydro plants can require many more hammers to build than coal plants to prevent players from going, "Pshh, why the hell would I ever build a coal plant if I can build a hydro plant at the same time?" But the hydro power wonder can wait until Electronics, as the Hoover Dam was built in the 1930s. So players (who have river cities) are faced with the choice of spending a lot of hammers to build hydro plants early, or go for coal early and then wait for Electronics to try to get the hydro dam wonder.

 

[Leoreth]

Yes, it's always been like that. I was surprised myself, and only found out because I wanted to implement what was suggested above when the new tech tree and its buildings were introduced, and found out it was already the case. I don't think it's documented anywhere, and this seems like a widespread misconception.

Just to be even more clear: I am only talking about the extra unhealth you get from using dirty power, which is what is multiplied by the number of power consuming buildings with the DoC specific rules. There is still the flat unhealth tied directly to the building, which remains no matter what.

 

[canexpthat]

Just to be even more clear: I am only talking about the extra unhealth you get from using dirty power, which is what is multiplied by the number of power consuming buildings with the DoC specific rules. There is still the flat unhealth tied directly to the building, which remains no matter what.

I see, thanks. So it's still impossible to "turn off" your coal power even after you've built fusion power or something? Hehe

 

[Leoreth]

You're not using it anymore, but yes.

 

[Leoreth]

New update, taking a nice tour through Russia:
- added The Kremlin: +25% defense in all cities, +1 movement for civilian units
- Saint Basil's Cathedral: +2 production for state religion buildings
- Hagia Sophia: +2 espionage for state religion buildings
- Saint Sophia's Cathedral: +1 food per merchant
- fixed Hermitage effect

 

[Jarlaxe Baenre]

I would like to remove the Temple of Kukulkan effect (it's the only true duplicate right now) but so far haven't seen a good idea for that, and couldn't think of anything myself. So that wasn't really a conscious decision. And since I was stuck there I didn't consider anything new. The problem here is that a bunch of different pyramids is all very similar.

Thought of a better one than my previous fresh water (á la HR's wells) suggestion.

+1 production from jungle/rainforest, or +1 production per jungle/rainforest in city radius (either just that city or all cities).

It goes obsolete eventually, so it can't be stacked with levees for additional effects. It helps the Maya out with production (or whoever builds it, really—I can't think of any jungle/rainforest-heavy areas with great production).

 

[Orbii]

Thought of a better one than my previous fresh water (á la HR's wells) suggestion.

+1 production from jungle/rainforest, or +1 production per jungle/rainforest in city radius (either just that city or all cities).

It goes obsolete eventually, so it can't be stacked with levees for additional effects. It helps the Maya out with production (or whoever builds it, really—I can't think of any jungle/rainforest-heavy areas with great production).

While this is much better than the current effect, I think fore most purposes the Maya would still be better off working any tile but rainforests and jungles. Correct me if I'm wrong on the tile values, but a rainforest grassland is 1/0/0 F/H/C, and would become with the wonder would become 1/1/0, which is a tile you probably should never work.

I can't really tell from your wording, but if the wonder is instead you get +x hammers in the city per rainforest/jungle in the city's (or all cities') BFC (i.e. no need to work the tiles), it becomes much more useful and you can ignore the above. This is probably a sufficiently useful effect for a wonder.

 

[1SDANi]

While this is much better than the current effect, I think fore most purposes the Maya would still be better off working any tile but rainforests and jungles. Correct me if I'm wrong on the tile values, but a rainforest grassland is 1/0/0 F/H/C, and would become with the wonder would become 1/1/0, which is a tile you probably should never work.

I can't really tell from your wording, but if the wonder is instead you get +x hammers in the city per rainforest/jungle in the city's (or all cities') BFC (i.e. no need to work the tiles), it becomes much more useful and you can ignore the above. This is probably a sufficiently useful effect for a wonder.

Don't forget that cottages and mines can be built on rainforests.

 

[canexpthat]

Thought of a better one than my previous fresh water (á la HR's wells) suggestion.

+1 production from jungle/rainforest, or +1 production per jungle/rainforest in city radius (either just that city or all cities).

It goes obsolete eventually, so it can't be stacked with levees for additional effects. It helps the Maya out with production (or whoever builds it, really—I can't think of any jungle/rainforest-heavy areas with great production).

Which reminds me of a question I've always had, why do levees give you a production boost in Civ? Is this another version of hydro power?

 

[Enyavar]

You're not using it anymore, but yes.

Which is what I was talking about. Make it so that in one city there can only be one power plant. If you build a hydro plant, it obsoletes/deletes the coal plant. If you then build a nuclear plant, it obsoletes/deletes the hydro one. Then, if you have that +4 hammer event and build a coal plant again, it removes the nuclear plant.

I know it has nothing to do with wonders, but as it came up in this thread, I suggest it.

Which reminds me of a question I've always had, why do levees give you a production boost in Civ? Is this another version of hydro power?

Pretty sure it is, yes. You may not guess it, but there is almost no creek in central Europe that wasn't used for hydro power from the renaissance onwards: Watermills are in the game for a reason; and levees are there to represent how the streamlined rivers made everything easier: Shorter ways to travel; easier ways to harness watermills and huge water-powered steel hammers thanks to retaining dams; protection from floods; and so on. If I know my Civ is going to be in that age, I settle all my cities at rivers and beeline for levees. Their production capabilities are AWESOME: if you have just 6 river tiles and a prod bonus (clergy/forge/[manu]factory/...), a levee gains you 9 hammers and more per turn. Lots of cities have 12 and more river tiles.

That is probably what you meant earlier in the thread when you mentioned the old hydropower stuff from the 17th to 19th century. The NEW hydropower stuff with extremely large dams and turbines, that is correctly represented by Hydro Plants and the Hoover/Sanxia/Itaipu/Assuan/etc. Dam. The really large retaining dam projects to generate energy on an industrial scale, were built in the 20th century or later. There is no compelling reason to move it from Electronics, in my opinion.

Given their point in the timeline I think it is more about using straightened rivers and canals for industrial transport.

For example, the famous canals of the English Industrialism Era. Also, look at a small part of the regulation of the Rhine.

 

[Leoreth]

Given their point in the timeline I think it is more about using straightened rivers and canals for industrial transport.

 

[canexpthat]

So I checked and the description in Civilopedia for levees mentions water control (floods and such) and hydroelectricity, so at least that was the initial reasoning. In BtS, Steam Power enables levees. In DoC, Hydraulics.

Pretty sure it is, yes. You may not guess it, but there is almost no creek in central Europe that wasn't used for hydro power from the renaissance onwards: Watermills are in the game for a reason; and levees are there to represent how the streamlined rivers made everything easier: Shorter ways to travel; easier ways to harness watermills and huge water-powered steel hammers thanks to retaining dams; protection from floods; and so on. If I know my Civ is going to be in that age, I settle all my cities at rivers and beeline for levees. Their production capabilities are AWESOME: if you have just 6 river tiles and a prod bonus (clergy/forge/[manu]factory/...), a levee gains you 9 hammers and more per turn. Lots of cities have 12 and more river tiles.

I know that every major civilization that had rivers probably utilized mechanical hydropower like water mills since long ago, but my question is really about what is it about levees in the industrial age that gives production such a boost in Civ. Your and Leoreth's explanation make sense, but what I was wondering before was what the Civ logic was for having it in the game like that - is it because levees allow better industrial era water mills (which might make you think whether the prod boost should go to watermills in your city radius only or not?), better short range transportation (which might make you think whether it should be a commerce boost or not?), or is it because they represent small scale hydro electric power plants, and if it's the third reason, how does that fit into the whole coal plant, hydro plant, and hydro wonder timeline for players? I don't have a problem with the way it is in both vanilla Civ and DoC, but was curious what people think the logic for it is.

That is probably what you meant earlier in the thread when you mentioned the old hydropower stuff from the 17th to 19th century. The NEW hydropower stuff with extremely large dams and turbines, that is correctly represented by Hydro Plants and the Hoover/Sanxia/Itaipu/Assuan/etc. Dam. The really large retaining dam projects to generate energy on an industrial scale, were built in the 20th century or later. There is no compelling reason to move it from Electronics, in my opinion.

No, I think hydro power wonders (representing huge dams) should require Electronics but regular hydro power plants should come earlier. As I mentioned, the Wikipedia article on hydroelectricity says, "By 1920 as 40% of the power produced in the United States was hydroelectric". That's before the Hoover Dam was built and that power was produced by individual hydro power plants here and there across the US. Building of hydro plants started from the late 1800s, which is the same time that coal power plants started being built as well. In other words, if you believe Wikipedia, the timelines for coal power plants and hydro power plants are pretty much the same (they both start in the late 1800s), and by 1920, almost half of US power was hydro. Huge national or wonder-level dams, I agree, should come later.

I hope I'm not derailing the discussion about wonders, though. I agree national-level dams and then 1 or a small limited number of wonder dams (e.g. Itaipu) would be cool in the game.