Featured Game 3 Pre-Discussion: Darius

[RedRover57]

Void genesis has an interesting plan. My experience with VEM is very limited (2.5 games under my belt) and have been wondering if a pure Tradition start without the Liberty crutch (free settler, free worker) is viable. I guess who better to test this out on than Darius and King difficulty. Pyramids for the free settler for sure though when using this approach, and Chichen Itza is a must have. With Tradition it seems that border expansion will be fast enough without having to build SH.

One question I have is whether or not Angkor Wat will still be a must-have wonder (if only to stop the AI from getting it) even with the slight nerf.

 

[Thalassicus]

Presumably annexation lowers happiness GA's by adding more population to the count than can be covered by luxuries and happiness buildings. But it also seems to raise happiness, as per above. Is there a percentage for how much happiness goes up upon annexation (even if it's simultaneously reduced by population)?

Could you rephrase your question? The effects are described ingame:

• Annexed: Identical to a normal city.
• Occupied: Lower yields.
• Puppeted: Lower yields, -1, no increase in policy costs.

 

[Txurce]

My status is that I basically lost the thread when you changed the courthouse's role. I believe it didn't happen all at once, and I never grasped the overall effect.

Your last statement confuses me a little more, because I recall you saying that "occupied is no longer a category - there is only puppeted and annexed. (I'm guessing you mean annexed without a courthouse when you say "occupied.")

I know that puppeted cities have 25% lower yields. Should I presume that annexed cities without courthouses have the same penalty?

The conclusion I draw from your last statement is that annexing improves happiness by one*, but has the standard burden any new city would add to a civ's culture rate.

* does it matter how big the city is? Do all annexed cities gain one happiness... but then potentially lose happiness baed on size and number of happiness buildings?

 

[void_genesis]

I figured that the eight satraps courts being built by my puppets was enough to sustain my golden age until I had filled out the final policies in autocracy. This just buys me a large number of turns before I start taking down the last AIs where I don't need to maintain very high happiness. In fact from here on in I suspect I won't get another pure happiness golden age. Any great artists will probably be burnt for golden ages as well (plus great generals when they have used up their usefulness).

Any ideas which final policy tree to invest in after autocracy? I am guessing that the cultural momentum will get me half another branch by the end.

 

[Txurce]

Given what you seem to be doing, I'd say Order.

 

[Thalassicus]

The conclusion I draw from your last statement is that annexing improves happiness by one*, but has the standard burden any new city would add to a civ's culture rate.

* does it matter how big the city is? Do all annexed cities gain one happiness... but then potentially lose happiness baed on size and number of happiness buildings?

Right. It does not matter how big the city is. There used to be a population-modifier effect, but feedback indicated people felt that made it counter-intuitively disadvantageous to annex big cities. The overall goal is puppets are better for small cities, and annexation for big ones. Occupation is a transition stage between the two, where we've occupied the city, but not yet built a courthouse to convert it into an annexed city. Annexed cities are identical to normal cities, except they have a courthouse.

Capture -> puppet -> occupy -> build courthouse -> annexed

 

[Ahriman]

As eazyseeker pointed out, Jungle is restricted to plains. We cannot place it on grassland in the world builder, and changing jungle to grassland removes the jungle.

Seriously, you can't change it, even in worldbuilder?

I really don't like the jungle-only-on-plains. It means that most mapscripts have very very little Jungle, you almost never get Amazon or SE Asia type areas. [I think they tend to require jungle to be near the equator, but plains tend to be towards the poles.]
I also think that jungles are too productive; I wish that at least until the mid-game or so that jungles were somewhat like desert or tundra - unproductive zones to keep out of. This could be accomplished by reducing their yield or by preventing villages without clearing the jungle and moving jungle-clearance to a higher era tech.

 

[void_genesis]

Given what you seem to be doing, I'd say Order.

That is what I have opened, before finishing autocracy. I am actually keen to draw out the game a little for some late game expansion and warfare. I'm curious to see how quickly a new city will grow if all the food buildings are bought on settlement.

 

[Thalassicus]

Seriously, you can't change it, even in worldbuilder?

I really don't like the jungle-only-on-plains. It means that most mapscripts have very very little Jungle, you almost never get Amazon or SE Asia type areas.

When it attempts to place jungle, it automatically converts the underlying terrain to plains. The terrain depends on the feature in this case, instead of vice versa.

Desert and tundra are not unproductive zones in Civilization 5. All terrain is approximately equal. Areas with low yields get 4 to 10 times as many resources as areas with high yields. Here's an explanation from Sirian in AssignStartingPlots.lua:

FOREWORD

Jon wanted a lot of changes to terrain composition for Civ5. These have
had the effect of making different parts of each randomly generated map
more distinct, more unique, but it has also necessitated a complete
overhaul of where civs are placed on the map and how resources are
distributed. The new placements are much more precise, both for civs
and resources. As such, any modifications to terrain or resource types
will no longer be "plug and play" in the XML. Terrain modders will have
to work with this file as well as the XML, to integrate their mods in to
the new system.

Some civs will be purposely placed in difficult terrain, depending on what
a given map instance has to offer. Civs placed in tough environments will
receive specific amounts of assistance, primarily in the form of Bonus food
from Wheat, Cows, Deer, Bananas, or Fish. This part of the new system is
very precisely calibrated and balanced, so be aware that any changes or
additions to how resources are placed near start points will have a
dramatic effect on the game, and could pose challenges of a sort that were
not present in the sphere of Civ4 modding.

The Luxury resources are also carefully calibrated. In a given game, some
will be clustered near a small number of civs (perhaps even a monopoly
given to one). Some will be placed only near City States, requiring civs
to go through a City State, one way or another, to obtain any instances of
that luxury type. Some will be left up to fate, appearing randomly in
whatever is their normal habitat. Yet others may be oversupplied or perhaps
even absent from a given game. Which luxuries fall in to which category
will be scrambled, to keep players guessing, and to help further the sense
of curiosity when exploring a new map in a new game.

Bob Thomas - April 16, 2010

 

[Txurce]

1. Scout
2. Scout
3. Worker
4. Stonehenge

I've been experimenting with this start vs SWS. To me the difference is the exponential benefit of selling a luxury 6 turns sooner (and spending it on something) vs sending out a second scout 16 turns later. You don't need an early scout for the Honor opener or to scout for build sites, so it seems to come down to the potential benefits of the ruins you may find in that time. I don't see that as an open-and-shut decision.

 

[Ahriman]

When it attempts to place jungle, it automatically converts the underlying terrain to plains. The terrain depends on the feature in this case, instead of vice versa.

It sounds like it isn't that hard to change this:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11003846&postcount=175

 

[Thalassicus]

@Txurce
The advantage of a double-scout opener here is we're surrounded by slow movement terrain. Scouts can reach and gang up on barbarian encampments faster than other units.

@Ahriman
It's possible, I was just pointing out how it works in the present game.

Jungle has the same yields as a grassland tile, so chopping would only have a bonus in the case of when we want to farm the tile. We'd get 3 instead of 21, which might be better or worse depending on other tiles available to the city. I'm uncertain if it would be realistic for clearcut jungle to be good farmland. I think the current method is okay.

 

[Ahriman]

Personally, I wish that Jungle was actually an inferior terrain type. I wish we still had zones that were good and zones that were not so good. So I wish that you couldn't build trading posts in jungle (you had to clear the jungle first), that clearing took a while, and that jungles had a default of 1 food. Like in every previous civ; jungle is not a very good place to build a civilization.

 

[Txurce]

@Txurce
The advantage of a double-scout opener here is we're surrounded by slow movement terrain. Scouts can reach and gang up on barbarian encampments faster than other units.

I see the advantage in this game to have two scouts kill barbs - but if you're taking the Honor opener, you may be better off building a worker in between the two.

 

[KidJustKid]

Just tried to open the save and it says I need all the DLCs, anyone else? Screenshots below.

 

[KidJustKid]

Needs DLC

Spoiler :

Needs ALL DLC >_<''

Spoiler :

 

[Toor]

Exactly the same problem for me

 

[KidJustKid]

Looks like Thal forgot to disable the DLC when he built the scenario. Is that something that can be rectified in WorldBuilder etc. or have we got a dud GotVEM?

 

[Txurce]

It's much easier to wait until Thal fixes it. I'll bet he does it today.

 

[KidJustKid]

Kk, I wasn't really up for paying 20 odd quid for DLC I wasn't planning on buying. Thal's got his timetable to keep, so yeah, I guess he'll sort it soon enough. It is possible to save the map separately to the game, so he should be able to duplicate the scenario?