February 2021 Update - Patch Notes Discussion

[Datgingah]

I can't play right now - will someone confirm whether or not barb camps can in fact convert to city state? Just for posterity to confirm if there is a bug or not.

 

[UWHabs]

Well I did not change the pull at all, just selected 0 CS at start. Medieval Era - pumping money towards barb camps, and meter does not move. Please, tell me I did something wrong and there isn't another bugged Game Mode.

When it was asked in the chat, I felt that they hesitated a little bit as if they hadn't thought through that. It wouldn't surprise me if there's a bug where if you select no city-states it doesn't bother loading the pool options. May need to start with one initial CS to make sure the pool gets loaded?

 

[TreVor_ish]

Is it just me or is it not possible to save leader pools between games? Do you have to manually set it each time unless you save configuration (in which case you have to manually change the seed?)

No individual pools can be saved. Only full configuration.

When it was asked in the chat, I felt that they hesitated a little bit as if they hadn't thought through that. It wouldn't surprise me if there's a bug where if you select no city-states it doesn't bother loading the pool options. May need to start with one initial CS to make sure the pool gets loaded?

Yes, exactly that. Tested with 1 City-State selected and the meter for barbs work. Funny enough when they change into CS their garrison strength is -3 and walls are rather thin. Also If You save and load, the white border that was indicating CS came from barbs changes to CS's colour (so red for Granada for instance). I see a lot of wonkiness in here and I don't really like it.

 

[Datgingah]

If you submit a bug report TreVor_ish, then they might be able to patch in a fix by the end of april?

 

[CivGumby]

Hi, I am looking at the Leader Pool implementation. They suggest in the announcement that there is a way to randomize leader properties (agendas, tendencies, behaviors), but I don't see how.
(I remember a previous version of civX in which we could select to have all leader traits randomized so that we could not predict their behavior just by knowing who they are.
How does the Leader pool lead to greater randomization?

(otherwise everything looks swell - Good show Fireaxis!)

 

[Elhoim]

Also If You save and load, the white border that was indicating CS came from barbs changes to CS's colour (so red for Granada for instance).

Because it's a bug, but they tried to sell it as a "feature"

 

[Datgingah]

Because it's a bug, but they tried to sell it as a "feature"

Okay but counterpoint - it is cool and something I'm all for. Even if it is unintended, civ is a dynamic story generation game at its core.

Though I do think they should make it not lose on a reload that doesn't help their case.

 

[Zegangani]

Also If You save and load, the white border that was indicating CS came from barbs changes to CS's colour (so red for Granada for instance).

That's too bad. I really liked it to keep the white Border, but now it would be better if it get's fixed to normal.

I think the Issue comes from UI trying to choose the Colors for a CS based on its Type when the Barb Camp gets turned to a CS. But because of some Issue (nil value - probably the UI doesn't recognise at that Time that the Camp turned to a specific CS, in order to choose it's color based on it's Type) it doesn't get the Colors of the CS Types, so it ends up with just the White Border. But, as @TreVor_ish found out, when the Game gets reloaded, The UI doesn't have the same Issue as the CS is already there.

 

[AntSou]

Also If You save and load, the white border that was indicating CS came from barbs changes to CS's colour (so red for Granada for instance).

That kind of sucks. I liked the idea of the white border.

 

[Rotomagus]

hm, is it still possible to get the Vampires out of a Barb camp now
?

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

hm, is it still possible to get the Vampires out of a Barb camp now
?

Yes, but you need to disperse the Camp. Raiding it won't get you the Sanguine Pact.

 

[acluewithout]

My thoughts, for what they’re worth.

Autocracy / Oligarchy swap. Swapping the policy slots between Autocracy and Oligarchy just seems wrongheaded to me. The biggest issue to me is that “which Government should I war with?” is now a much less interesting choice. Before, you were juggling Oligarchy for the bonus, Autocracy because you could run Unit Production and Conscription (or Discipline, or Raid etc), or maybe sometimes Republic for Amenities and Great General Points. Now it’s a no-brainer - just always run Oligarchy. It’s hands down the best for war.

Flips side is that I certainly don’t think this change makes Autocracy better. Autocracy is actually going to be quite constrained, because you’re probably always going to run Conscription in your one military slot. It will therefore be hard to build both a defensive army to avoid aggressors and develop your economy, which is what you could do with the previous policy slot spread. You do gain a Diplomatic slot, but they’re just not that useful early game.

I think the change also really cuts across some existing game balance. There was also clearly a design where the Tall Governments got extra Military Slots so they could run Unit Production, Conscription, Extra Movement, City Defence, Cheap Walls etc, and thereby be more defensive v aggressors (you still see this design a little with Monarchy, that encourages you to build walls both for growth and Defence). The change also runs counter to the ongoing buffing of Military Cards - including making Craftsman a Military Card - which now more benefit Oligarchy.

Honestly, I can’t see myself running Autocracy much anymore. Except maybe for Autocracy’s yield bonus, Oligarchy is going to be much better almost all the time. At the same time, I can’t deny this is a real crowd pleaser. Reddit has lost its mind in the change. It’s obviously something a lot of people wanted, so fair enough I guess.

I’ll give it a few days, and if it still really annoys me I’ll just mod it back for my games.

Colonial Card Changes, Monarchy and Merchant Republic Changes. I think these have to be viewed as a package. I could quibble here or there, but I think overall this ends up as a pretty good change overall. It’s a really clever way to make Diplo Slots situationally more useful, buff Colonial mechanics and maybe improve the balance between Merchant Republic and Monarchy. There does seem to be a trend to make Tall play synergise with Diplomatic Victory which is ... ok? I guess?

Anyway. Seems good overall. Craftsmanship change is unexpected / feels odd, but probably the card needed something so people used it more because it wasn’t all that competitive with other economic cards.

Well. They all seem quite solid changes. Huzzah. Pitati or whatever it’s called needed a nerf, so that’s good.

Barb mode. Really excellent. Watching the livestream, it struck me that the mode feels very much like a kludge. They’ve just roped in a bunch of existing mechanics and some UI changes to cobble together this sort of “interactive barbs, that turn spawn city states” mode. What’s impressive is how well it works, and actually how cohesive it feels. I think that reflects how modular and robust the underlying Civ VI game mechanics really are.

Other stuff. Lots of other stuff. All of it good. None of it worth really discussing in any detail. I hope the AI does use more planes. I’m sorry FXS didn’t fix Corporations mode, but I do get they probably didn’t have time to do that, so that’s ok. Overall, except that this update doesn’t come with a new leader or Civ, it somehow manages to feel like an actual paid DLC even though it’s free. That’s actually pretty cool.

Final thoughts. One more DLC and one more Update to go. Theres definitely some stuff with NFP that I wish FXS had done better - a bit more depth with the some game modes, a few balance decisions that are real head scratchers (no spying on allies is rubbish). But it’s ended up a pretty good year in terms of content, balance and support. I like the monthly content more or less. FXS have done a pretty good job overall. I hope after this, FXS take a bit of time to balance and polish some of the game modes, and then I really do hope they do another season.

Guess I’ll tune back in next month.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

My thoughts, for what they’re worth.

Autocracy / Oligarchy swap. Swapping the policy slots between Autocracy and Oligarchy just seems wrongheaded to me. The biggest issue to me is that “which Government should I war with?” is now a much less interesting choice. Before, you were juggling Oligarchy for the bonus, Autocracy because you could run Unit Production and Conscription (or Discipline, or Raid etc), or maybe sometimes Republic for Amenities and Great General Points. Now it’s a no-brainer - just always run Oligarchy. It’s hands down the best for war.

Flips side is that I certainly don’t think this change makes Autocracy better. Autocracy is actually going to be quite constrained, because you’re probably always going to run Conscription in your one military slot. It will therefore be hard to build both a defensive army to avoid aggressors and develop your economy, which is what you could do with the previous policy slot spread. You do gain a Diplomatic slot, but they’re just not that useful early game.

I think the change also really cuts across some existing game balance. There was also clearly a design where the Tall Governments got extra Military Slots so they could run Unit Production, Conscription, Extra Movement, City Defence, Cheap Walls etc, and thereby be more defensive v aggressors (you still see this design a little with Monarchy, that encourages you to build walls both for growth and Defence). The change also runs counter to the ongoing buffing of Military Cards - including making Craftsman a Military Card - which now more benefit Oligarchy.

Honestly, I can’t see myself running Autocracy much anymore. Except maybe for Autocracy’s yield bonus, Oligarchy is going to be much better almost all the time. At the same time, I can’t deny this is a real crowd pleaser. Reddit has lost its mind in the change. It’s obviously something a lot of people wanted, so fair enough I guess.

I’ll give it a few days, and if it still really annoys me I’ll just mod it back for my games.

Considering Potato McWhiskey agrees with your opinion, I can see the merit.

 

[iammaxhailme]

I think the change is good for non-"minmaxed deity" games that don't just try to do everything via an earlygame conquering spree. In those games, autocracy was very undesirable before, but is a bit better now.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

My thoughts, for what they’re worth.

Autocracy / Oligarchy swap. Swapping the policy slots between Autocracy and Oligarchy just seems wrongheaded to me. The biggest issue to me is that “which Government should I war with?” is now a much less interesting choice. Before, you were juggling Oligarchy for the bonus, Autocracy because you could run Unit Production and Conscription (or Discipline, or Raid etc), or maybe sometimes Republic for Amenities and Great General Points. Now it’s a no-brainer - just always run Oligarchy. It’s hands down the best for war.

Flips side is that I certainly don’t think this change makes Autocracy better. Autocracy is actually going to be quite constrained, because you’re probably always going to run Conscription in your one military slot. It will therefore be hard to build both a defensive army to avoid aggressors and develop your economy, which is what you could do with the previous policy slot spread. You do gain a Diplomatic slot, but they’re just not that useful early game.

I think the change also really cuts across some existing game balance. There was also clearly a design where the Tall Governments got extra Military Slots so they could run Unit Production, Conscription, Extra Movement, City Defence, Cheap Walls etc, and thereby be more defensive v aggressors (you still see this design a little with Monarchy, that encourages you to build walls both for growth and Defence). The change also runs counter to the ongoing buffing of Military Cards - including making Craftsman a Military Card - which now more benefit Oligarchy.

Honestly, I can’t see myself running Autocracy much anymore. Except maybe for Autocracy’s yield bonus, Oligarchy is going to be much better almost all the time. At the same time, I can’t deny this is a real crowd pleaser. Reddit has lost its mind in the change. It’s obviously something a lot of people wanted, so fair enough I guess.

I’ll give it a few days, and if it still really annoys me I’ll just mod it back for my games.

Colonial Card Changes, Monarchy and Merchant Republic Changes. I think these have to be viewed as a package. I could quibble here or there, but I think overall this ends up as a pretty good change overall. It’s a really clever way to make Diplo Slots situationally more useful, buff Colonial mechanics and maybe improve the balance between Merchant Republic and Monarchy. There does seem to be a trend to make Tall play synergise with Diplomatic Victory which is ... ok? I guess?

Anyway. Seems good overall. Craftsmanship change is unexpected / feels odd, but probably the card needed something so people used it more because it wasn’t all that competitive with other economic cards.

I can see myself modding the governments for myself.
Though I think I've come around on the idea of keeping Oligarchy as it is and switching Autocracy from the diplo slot to another wildcard slots to make early game choices more interesting.
As for Merchant Republic I might make it go back to the way it was before and turn one of the wildcards into a diplomatic one for Monarchy, if I give two to Autocracy.

 

[Engeez]

After 169 turns into my first game with barb clans on Deity and AI has barely developed their lands. Diamond mine, Sugar all undeveloped. What an atrocity! Absolute bollocks.

 

[acluewithout]

Considering Potato McWhiskey agrees with your opinion, I can see the merit.

I can see myself modding the governments for myself.

Yeah. As as I said, just seems wrongheaded to me. Really, the biggest issues for me is that it makes early government choices less interesting - ie always Oligarchy for war; and it’s a sort nerf to “Tall” Civs being able to both grow tall and build a defensive army (and via Conscription, Retainers and Litimani, use that standing army to increase loyalty and happiness for growth).

Sadly, I can’t see this change being reversed. Lots of people had been asking for this, and the response has been overwhelmingly positive (including here and on Reddit).

I’m more hopeful FXS will roll back the “no spying on allies”. An easy fix would be to just limit what “aggressive” missions you can run against allies.

I’m still hoping Lumbermills get back river adjacencies again. But man, I’ve been waiting for that one for ages.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Yeah. As as I said, just seems wrongheaded to me. Really, the biggest issues for me is that it makes early government choices less interesting - ie always Oligarchy for war; and it’s a sort nerf to “Tall” Civs being able to both grow tall and build a defensive army (and via Conscription, Retainers and Litimani, use that standing army to increase loyalty and happiness for growth).

Sadly, I can’t see this change being reversed. Lots of people had been asking for this, and the response has been overwhelmingly positive (including here and on Reddit).

I think most people were unaware of the change to Autocracy and Oligarchy honestly. Most complaints were that Monarchy was always the overlooked tier two government, which I agree, considering many economic policies were vastly superior. At least to me there was no reason for 3 military slots in any of my games.

 

[Datgingah]

Honestly if the diplomatic policy slot is so week they should just make 1-2 more early game diplomatic policy cards that are worth running. Something like:

Diplomatic Immunity: Increase bonuses given by the first envoy to a city state by +1

Sphere of Influence: -4 loyalty to any foreign city you have a trading post in (nonstacking).

Ancient Statecraft: +1 diplomatic visibility to any civilization you have a trading post with, +1 science for each embassy you have in a foreign capital, and +1 culture for each embassy in your capital.

We need something on this power level to make ancient diplo policy more useable.

 

[AntSou]

I like the swap, mainly because I very often go through more than one government in any given tier. This way I can more effectively focus on wonders etc and switch to Oligarchy when/if I need to.