Feedback and Suggestions

[Nightinggale]

I was thinking something like gaining a point for a "special building" for every 20 plots you own or something. We then have a number of special buildings to build and you would need say 200 plots to be able to gain one of each type. A bit like how RaR allows you to build one great university for every 4 universities you have.

Also maybe we could use units in your land like RaR has fishing boats. Right now we can find bonus plots in locations unreachable by any city (prospecting can make this worse). Setting a unit to work it and then travel to the nearest city to unload sounds interesting as well. Also each plot could generate tax income, something which might have to be collected by a tax collector.

 

[Kailric]

I wonder if we could make something like a 'pillage' button for culture borders in times of war, you can put a unit on a tile and 'stamp' your culture/control onto it, as though you are actively surpressing the population.

I like this idea better, as it would make you feel like you are actively taking control of the plot. This "stamping" could cost gold as well. We could simply add a new variable to plots called "stampedOwner" and when the plot checks owner and it finds a stamped owner it will return that instead if said stamped owner is at war with the current owner.

It could also be that it is lost again if that unit moves, so in order to actively control a hostile land you have maintain a presence in every location.

I'd rather have it so you don't have to actively have to keep a ton of units there. We are assuming that there is population there, some places are quite remote and the gold cost and turn spent stamping could presumably suppress what ever population that may be there, until they are liberated, which could also cost a turn. It would get very meticulous having to keep a unit on every plot that you stamped, and sometimes the territorial gains really don't signify much other than an ego boost

There are benefits. (At least I think there are)

For example being able to build strongholds to protect your borders, without having to take up city squares.

Also you have area denial, where people cannot build a town in a potential spot because you own it.

The thing from regular civ was bonus resource control, but we currently don't have that in col.

Yeah, there are plenty of reasons you would want to take control of his territory and I plan on introducing more reasons. I have been testing the changes to limited resources for Ore and it seems much improved. At turn 200 my major Ore producing city is down to only one plot and I do have another area that I have started drawing from. And one of my major reasons for declaring war when I did was that Theodoric had control of an Iron Bonus just out side my borders. You can tell in the screen shot that there is prime mining territory still owned by Theo. I'd like to plant a mining town right there on that treeless hill next to the ocean, but in order to do that now I'd have to take out his capital city. Unless I had other means at my disposal such as stamping

Also maybe we could use units in your land like RaR has fishing boats. Right now we can find bonus plots in locations unreachable by any city (prospecting can make this worse). Setting a unit to work it and then travel to the nearest city to unload sounds interesting as well.

Exactly the kind of thing I'd like to introduce and I'll be posting my ideas on this shortly.

Also each plot could generate tax income, something which might have to be collected by a tax collector.

Yeah, that's an interesting Idea as well. Tax Collectors could be sent to your Strongholds to collect taxes around that area. The area defined could be based on Civic, Techs, and Unit promotions.

 

[Nightinggale]

Ray modified RaR a moment ago:

That gave me an idea. How about adding an XML telling terrain/feature "families"? We can then assign a unit to have bonus attack of whatever in all forests or whatever. On load, the DLL can then assign the bonus to each individual terrain/feature. This mean the regular code for finding combat strength will not have to be modified because CvTerrainInfo will still return the same data. It will just be an XML setup feature.

We might do something clever with the display as well, but I haven't figured that out yet. Perhaps something like making an array of group bonus, which it displays and then it loops though the individual terrains/features and displays those - the group data (which would often become 0 and not be displayed).

I just realized how to do this and the answer is simple. I will explain using attack bonus in promotion in features, though it's a generic solution, which can also be used for terrain and whatever.

We add a new feature called FEATURE_ALL_FORESTS and set it to bGraphicalOnly. It will then not be used in the game or show up in the pedia.

Features then gain the tag FeatureGroup, which defaults to NO_FEATURE. Forests can then set this to FEATURE_ALL_FORESTS.

In promotions:
Attack bonus in features is loaded into an InfoArray.
The InfoArray is added into a JIT array. Next the array is looped. If there is a feature, which has a parent feature, the bonus for the parent feature is added. Say feature 2 has feature 4 as parent, then the number in index 2 will be the bonuses for feature 2 and 4 combined.

There is a bit of a timing issue here. It would be beneficial if features are read before promotions as promotions would require features to be set up completely.

CvUnit will then read from the JIT array (just like it is doing right now). It will not care for feature groups. All it cares about is getting the bonus for the feature in a specific plot (read: a specific feature). JIT arrays are ideal for this task.

The GUI will then be rewritten into writing based on InfoArrays. Also they should display bGraphicalOnly features.

In promotion XML, FEATURE_ALL_FORESTS is selected for bonus. If it needs additional bonus in FEATURE_DENSE_FOREST, then add the additional bonus for that feature. The unit will figure out to combine those two.

 

[Kailric]

Ok, Night, there is confusion with the Feeder Service. The Threshold the code uses is for "Minimum Goods Stored" so that when your units are collecting Exports they will only collect amounts over this Threshold. I just started producing Plate Armor and wanted my Feeder to send Plate Armor to all other Cities so I turned on Feeder to all other cities. Which, that didn't do anything, and hasn't been doing anything for several turns because I didn't increase the "Minimum Goods Stored" Threshold, which I didn't make a connection to Imports having to have a "Minimum Goods Stored".

Most times Players will have Goods as either Import or Export, but sometimes they can obviously set up Distribution Centers for Goods, where they Import Goods to it, and then Export those Goods out to other places. In this situation I see there being conflicts with the Feeder system and Minimum Goods Stored. If you want the Feeder to fill up to the Max amount you would set the "Minimum Goods Stored" to 300, you will then Prevent any goods ever being Exported form that City because the Transport can only Transport anything over 300.

It seems to me that a better way to do it would be that if "Minimum Goods Stored" is set to 0 and you have Feeder turned on, then obviously you are wanting to Import goods there and you do not want to Import 0, so there should be a check for 0 Threshold, if it is 0 then it will know to check for Max Storage instead. Most times you are going to want to Import to Max Storage anyway. I'm thinking there won't be that many times where you want to set a Max Imports less than Max Storage, unless your trying to maximize output at several different cities and want to make sure there is only a minimum amount at each location to perhaps keep up production, but then what happens when you have more goods than the cities are asking for? You would have to keep monitoring it to make sure this doesn't happen.

Maybe I am seeing the glass as only half empty though?

Edit: I edited this post a few times for clarity.

 

[Nightinggale]

Activating feeder service with a threshold of 0 will make sense sometimes. I use it quite a lot with tools as if the building under construction requires say 40, it will increase the threshold to 40. Once the building is complete, there is no longer a need for tools and the threshold drops back to 0. In other words, this feature is telling the automation to import yields as needed by the construction.

There has been talk about several ideas regarding spreading your yields across your cities, but nothing has been coded yet.

 

[Kailric]

Did you read my edited version above for better clarity? Anyway, yeah I need to have all the things feeder does in the help text for it. i like that it would turn it on for material when needed if set to 0. But what I don't like is having to set all of the Thresholds to 300 for several military yields in order to get Feeder to max out storage. If we are going to be using the same threshold for both Feeder and Minimum Goods stores then perhaps it would be better to have 2 thresholds? Or at least when you turn on Feeder it will automaticly set it to Max Storage.
Perhaps the monitoring of materials needed could be a new Govenor setting, or perhaps a tech could unlock this ability like Double Entry Bookkeeping. Because this would be best to have on all the time so you don't have to actually manually turn on feeder then have to remeber to turn it off, but since it basically turns itself off then perhaps it makes since to have it turn itself on as well.

 

[Lib.Spi't]

One nice hook in for this 'needed goods' part of feeder would be an option in the popup screen where it says you have a building wating for a yield. To have an option that then switches on feeder to have that provided might be good.

 

[Nightinggale]

I have been thinking of making a major redesign of feeder service. The checkboxes and the active settings should be different arrays, which tells what the user wants. We can then add a checkbox for supplying construction. If it requires tools, it can start feeder service for tools. Once the need is gone, it will go back to the settings defined by the checkboxes (often off).

Using a system like that, we can impose all sorts of interesting rules, such as all cities feed chain armor until they reach 50 or 80% warehouse capacity (or 75% for performance reasons). If no city imports, then the cap adds 50. Repeat until all cities have been filled. No settings in each city (other than possibly a checkbox for ignoring empire wide settings).

50 is picked because professions use that. I wrote a function, which stores the requirements of each yield for the most expensive unit. It would make sense to use those threshold for a task like this. In fact I intended the AI to do so when I wrote it.

Cities could be given priority, meaning it fills up A, then A stops import and B starts import and so on. That way you will not end up with 80% requirements for a profession in 4 cities and no city with enough. Such a priority can be automated for profession inputs (send ore to big blacksmiths buildings with tools production bonus rather than the village blacksmith), but what about profession requirements... I guess it could be city ID or something if it were to be automated.

 

[Lib.Spi't]

Perhaps something like a priority rank could be added to somewhere, so you can set a number rank for each city that sets it's priority?

 

[Nightinggale]

Perhaps something like a priority rank could be added to somewhere, so you can set a number rank for each city that sets it's priority?

That's not a bad idea and I have thought a bit about it. However I want the AI to use a system like this and the AI will need some sort of automated approach to set priority.

Perhaps defense bonus. The AI moves the weapon stockpiles into the strongest fortifications rather than virtually undefended villages.

 

[Kailric]

For the time being, for my new commands I added to turn on Feeder in multiple cities I'll also have it set the Threshold to max storage in those cities.

On a "way into the future" note...

For M:C and the Colonization period Wagon Transports seems perfectly fine. But I am thinking as time progresses and you advance into the more modern times (WHM) that Transports should become obsolete. Then perhaps the Road system connecting two cities would determine the amount of goods that gets transported and feeder service could be adapted to do this. I say this because as your routes improve to say Rail Roads, movement points become redundant. Like one Wagon train could supply your whole Empire with near infinite movement.

Then what would you do with all those extra Wagon Trains, use them for extra Storage? This would be kind of silly as well, so also along with better Transport system you would have better Storage to the point where Storage becomes near infinite (MAX_INTEGER).

On into the Future the older management of Transports and Storage could be replaced by other concerns of the player, like Spies or setting up Corporations like in Civ4.

 

[Lib.Spi't]

Yes I thought you might be talking about AI, and I tried to think of something along those lines as well, without much success.

I thought maybe the capital was best, or the most centralised city(but how could it know the centre of it's empire), border towns, (but same issue), perhaps proximity to where it makes them so it fills up from closest to farthest, (same locational issue). City defence could be a good way of prioritising, that way if it is caught of guard or before it is empire wide prepared, it's strongest (and there for presumably most developed/best cities) would be the ones most likely to survive and best able to potentially rebuild/retake a lost empire.

 

[Lib.Spi't]

@Kail
No!!!!!!

I want an empire full of trucks and trains and planes and helicopters transporting my yummy goods around!!

 

[Nightinggale]

@Kail
No!!!!!!

I want an empire full of trucks and trains and planes and helicopters transporting my yummy goods around!!

I kind of agree with that. Improved routes does give improved movement. Possibly the biggest impact is the trans continental railroad in the US. Prior to it opening, the travel time from Des Moines to California was 6 months and you could only depart from around one moth each year or snow would block the mountains. The railroad did the same journey in 7 days and could travel most of the year. Still they have more than 8k locomotives today to service that line. Thinking of the amount of materials, facilities and manpower it takes to produce one, just saying that modern times will not need to produce those is... odd.

I think we should stick to our current system. If anything should be transported in the background, it should be something like cities being able to take yields for the domestic marked in the background from nearby cities. The real big haul transports, such as ore transport to your foundries are still large scale transports, which you have to handle with your units.

 

[Kailric]

@Kail
No!!!!!!

I want an empire full of trucks and trains and planes and helicopters transporting my yummy goods around!!

Are you being sarcastic?

Well, I still think (on paper) that unless we add something the would limit the amount that a transport can move in a turn then it would become redundant, pointless, etc. to have a fleet of Trains, Trucks, with their extra moves and add in the future route move bonuses, one Train could service your whole empire in one turn, unless perhaps if you had 40 Cities, which for the majority of players would never happen. So, why bother with that one Train at all, is my question?

On a different note, I remember you could build like Caravans, or Trucks that you could move to another city and have to help in Construction. Which Civ was that? Anyway, I liked that feature and perhaps it could be added to M:C and WHM in some fashion?

 

[Nightinggale]

Well, I still think (on paper) that unless we add something the would limit the amount that a transport can move in a turn then it would become redundant, pointless, etc. to have a fleet of Trains, Trucks, with their extra moves and add in the future route move bonuses, one Train could service your whole empire in one turn, unless perhaps if you had 40 Cities, which for the majority of players would never happen. So, why bother with that one Train at all, is my question?

Current capacity is too great and even primitive roads are too fast. That's the problem. Setting up how much cargo you can have in each slot will make more advanced units more interesting. We could also add an array of allowed/banned yields to transport, like heavy machinery can't be moved by horses. That will also allow the concept of tanker trucks for liquid transports.

This way you do want to upgrade your transport network as it will allow you to transport more yields and it will allow transport of modern yields.

To fully use such a system, costs would have to increase through the game and each citizen would produce more and more yields/turn to compensate.

On a different note, I remember you could build like Caravans, or Trucks that you could move to another city and have to help in Construction. Which Civ was that? Anyway, I liked that feature and perhaps it could be added to M:C and WHM in some fashion?

Alpha Centauri had a convey module, which you could use to harvest plots you could not reach from any city (a nice concept). If I recall correctly, it could disband in a city and it would add half the production cost of the unit/module to the current production in the city. I think Civ2 or 3 had something similar, but I'm not sure.

 

[Lib.Spi't]

Civ two had caravans and freight. I forget the exact purpose/mechanic, money or making trade routes or adding yields.

I was being serious. If you take a look at the design plans I mostly drew up back in the day, there are extensive transport unit plans.

In WHM, you have close to 90 yields (I think... it has been a long while..) by the modern era, so if the the majority of these different yields are of value (such as the demand scheme being central to national stability) to all cities and populations then a 6 slot wagon will be woefully inadequate to the task.

If we include a 'jroute' type system in the game, then vehicles like trains will only go where rails are, meaning wagons and trucks will be needed for certain 'out of the way' areas until you can afford to connect everything by rail, then eventually helicopters and planes will allow fast intercontinental and difficult transportation of different goods.

So larger and larger capacities fro transports will become more important.

Also currently most yields have no real value to cities other than production and selling them.

If we implement a demand system that sees almost every yield being needed by every settlement to maintain happiness and stability, then multiple and larger capacity transports will become essential to keeping your nation strong.

I also look forward to concepts like industrial age warfare, where blowing up a few rail way lines could destabilise your enemies economy and infrastructure and potentially lead to that nation tearing itself apart through unhappiness and unmet demands.

 

[Lib.Spi't]

Wow!

I think I just witnessed my first native improvement! They built a kings wood. How exciting!

The maintenance additions for the civics looks good too, haven't got deep into ityet, but it is already making feel like I need to prioritise fealty and administration more. Which is good.

Oh no! Rumours from the east! Quickly we must send spies!!

I am really liking the civic upkeep, currently can only afford 1 civic, but it is really making me think and feel like I need to get my empire in order with all the things that were stables of Medieval society, like religion and law and fealty, so that I can gain access to more sophisticated civics!

One problem, I seem to be getting spy reports regardless of if I send spies..(It actually takes the money whatever button you click)

How does the auto buy and sell work, I have just set 1 city to sell wine and buy spice (on the foreign market) I then clicked sell wares and then buy wares on the peddler I had, is that right or?

One thing I have notivced this play through is I can't figure out what my current research choice is.

How fun would it be if at the start of the viking age it started playing the Viking theme song!

I currently have three viking long boats outside my city... and 1 archer! I think I am dead!

Currently a Jester produces law, and a Brilliant Dignitary produces education and gold, which I believe means he doesn't so anything anymore?

Also I got a diplo message that asked me what I thought of a deal, but there was no deal displayed?!?

Hmmm... I am some how at -94 gold, but I don't kno why... I think it might be connected to the spies take my money no matter what problem.

 

[Kailric]

Wow!

I think I just witnessed my first native improvement! They built a kings wood. How exciting!

Oh yeah, I forgot I set it up so they could use Work Professions. Need to keep an eye on them and see how they do.

The maintenance additions for the civics looks good too, haven't got deep into ityet, but it is already making feel like I need to prioritise fealty and administration more. Which is good.

I am really liking the civic upkeep, currently can only afford 1 civic, but it is really making me think and feel like I need to get my empire in order with all the things that were stables of Medieval society, like religion and law and fealty, so that I can gain access to more sophisticated civics!

Yeah, I really think it will be a fun addition. It needs a better UI and play tested for what values work best.

One problem, I seem to be getting spy reports regardless of if I send spies..(It actually takes the money whatever button you click)

Ok, I'll check out the Spies and see what they are doing with all that money.

How does the auto buy and sell work, I have just set 1 city to sell wine and buy spice (on the foreign market) I then clicked sell wares and then buy wares on the peddler I had, is that right or?

Yeah, you set a City's Foreign Exports/Imports up. Exports your goods with the Peddler Sell Wares command, and Imports Wares with the Buy Command. You must be connected by road to any city you want to trade with. I can't remember if I added checks for buying wares if the player is out of gold, but I was suppose too, so that could contribute to -gold values.

One thing I have notivced this play through is I can't figure out what my current research choice is.

Hmm, you mean on the Main Screen.. yeah I need to add hover text, an icon, or something. You should still see it in the Tech Screen right?

How fun would it be if at the start of the viking age it started playing the Viking theme song!

Yeah, I love that song

Currently a Jester produces law, and a Brilliant Dignitary produces education and gold, which I believe means he doesn't so anything anymore?

They need to be adjusted. Oh yeah, I changed court houses to produce Law. Education is used to factor Immigration so it pays to have people working there. But that whole system needs reworked.

Also I got a diplo message that asked me what I thought of a deal, but there was no deal displayed?!?

Would need a saved game, or it didn't happen

Hmmm... I am some how at -94 gold, but I don't kno why... I think it might be connected to the spies take my money no matter what problem.

Yeah, maybe so, just hit shift-4 to give yourself a 1000 gold for now, this version is for testing anyway.

 

[Lib.Spi't]

Yeah with the tech screen I forgot about the quill that points to your active techy choice.

I managed to get my gold back up on my own, and I just built my first ship, so I will be rolling in it soon enough!

Yeah I don't have a save of the diplo moment, I need to go back and set my autosave values again.

The vikings were a bit of a disappointment, a native wounded the 2 that landed on my shore, then I was able to pick them off before they recovered.

With slavery I see there is a gold value for maintenance, is this setup to remove that amount each turn, or it just has to be the minimum in your treasury? What happens if you fall below the threshold of a civic maintenance? Anarchy?

Oh and the auto-prospecting is SO much better, I can just set him off and make sure I have money to pump into it then I just wait to see where he finds deposits, I was lucky this time and found loads around my capital!