Feedback and Suggestions

[Kailric]

The vikings were a bit of a disappointment, a native wounded the 2 that landed on my shore, then I was able to pick them off before they recovered.

Yeah, all that needs adjusted for difficulty levels.

With slavery I see there is a gold value for maintenance, is this setup to remove that amount each turn, or it just has to be the minimum in your treasury? What happens if you fall below the threshold of a civic maintenance? Anarchy?

It should deduct each turn. If you can't afford a Civic for any reason there is a chance of Anarchy each turn and you'll lose the Civic.

Oh and the auto-prospecting is SO much better, I can just set him off and make sure I have money to pump into it then I just wait to see where he finds deposits, I was lucky this time and found loads around my capital!

Yeah, it does work better. There are still improvements that need to be made.


At the moment the plan is to complete the economy model and then test, balance, adjust, and debug all that we have so far. No new additions until that is done, at least from me.

 

[Lib.Spi't]

The developing natives feel so much more 'interesting' seeing all the tiles develop and even roads between their towns, they also seem to grow larger as well, even with a band of warriors they still have size 4+ cities in some places where they are not being 'squeezed' I also understand why they have a lot less money now, because they are spending it to develop their land.

The world certainly feels more 'Alive' now, it is a good addition.

With things like turn by turn maintenace, those small incomes are starting to feel a lot more important now, like taxing my first vassal. I now have the option to adopt slavery as I can afford the maintenance guaranteed.

I have 5 or 6 cities, and I am in the process of getting them connected, then I will need to raise the money to start improving the land, but my first ship has sailed with a hold full of grapes, so let the good times role!

I just had a thought about the auto foreign import system, could there be some way of making an automated vassal import?

So instead of going out and buying the needed thing, it first checks to see if it can be 'levied' for free from a vassal? (or perhaps as a different automate option)

It perhaps say could take 1/4 of a stock of good from a vassal at each visit, so it is not as effective as just buying, but it is free.

I think something might be wrong with luxury food, and wellborn birth, in one city I have 156 lux. food, and it is red(like it is over stored) but I get no wellborn unit.

Is it a case of I have to increase storage capacity to get to the right amount? Ok It seemed to start working with recruits on monarchy, so probably an issue with the wellborn? No I think it is a storage quantity issue.

This save should contain the diplo bug. (I think it is a cease fire message) Mansa Musa is the blank one

The import from all cities option is a really nice functon, and I find the right click for each yield a much more effective system now than using the main import/export screen, as I find that too long and cluttered now.

I am not certain, but I think the worker(pioneer) might be broken in that it doesn't require tools to make it (it should take 50, but I think I can make it without..)

 

[Kailric]

Thanks for all the excellent feedback.

The developing natives feel so much more 'interesting' seeing all the tiles develop and even roads between their towns, they also seem to grow larger as well, even with a band of warriors they still have size 4+ cities in some places where they are not being 'squeezed' I also understand why they have a lot less money now, because they are spending it to develop their land.

The world certainly feels more 'Alive' now, it is a good addition.

Nice, that is what we we're aiming for.

With things like turn by turn maintenace, those small incomes are starting to feel a lot more important now, like taxing my first vassal. I now have the option to adopt slavery as I can afford the maintenance guaranteed.

Yeah, at end game though they may or may not make that much difference. Will have to balance it out. But starting off, you really have to think and plan.

I have 5 or 6 cities, and I am in the process of getting them connected, then I will need to raise the money to start improving the land, but my first ship has sailed with a hold full of grapes, so let the good times role!

I just had a thought about the auto foreign import system, could there be some way of making an automated vassal import?

So instead of going out and buying the needed thing, it first checks to see if it can be 'levied' for free from a vassal? (or perhaps as a different automate option)

It perhaps say could take 1/4 of a stock of good from a vassal at each visit, so it is not as effective as just buying, but it is free.

Hmm, perhaps your tax collectors could have a command that lets you setup an auto transport that they send out for you. They would use one of their own Peddlers or Wagon Trains that perhaps you donated to them When the stocks are ready they send it to one your chosen city.

I think something might be wrong with luxury food, and wellborn birth, in one city I have 156 lux. food, and it is red(like it is over stored) but I get no wellborn unit.

Is it a case of I have to increase storage capacity to get to the right amount? Ok It seemed to start working with recruits on monarchy, so probably an issue with the wellborn? No I think it is a storage quantity issue.

Hmm, not sure. There could have been other factors, like anarchy perhaps. If you have a save it would be nice.

This save should contain the diplo bug. (I think it is a cease fire message) Mansa Musa is the blank one

Ok, I'll check it out.

The import from all cities option is a really nice functon, and I find the right click for each yield a much more effective system now than using the main import/export screen, as I find that too long and cluttered now.

Yes, that is what I thought too.

I am not certain, but I think the worker(pioneer) might be broken in that it doesn't require tools to make it (it should take 50, but I think I can make it without..)

I'll look into it.

 

[Nightinggale]

The world certainly feels more 'Alive' now, it is a good addition.

My first thought when I saw this was moving plots of land, kind of like floating islands

We really should have actions, which can change terrain though, like RaR has drain marsh. It's on my todo list, but it is far from the top.

Oh and the auto-prospecting is SO much better, I can just set him off and make sure I have money to pump into it then I just wait to see where he finds deposits, I was lucky this time and found loads around my capital!

I just had a thought about the auto foreign import system, could there be some way of making an automated vassal import?

I'm so out of touch with the latest automation code and ideas as I have been focusing on CivEffects exclusively for a while (as well as some real world stuff).

I would like to be involved in automation designing and possibly coding. I wrote my master thesis in automation and it would be a waste if I'm not involved. Besides I find it interesting (well most of the DLL is more interesting than the python GUI )

 

[Lib.Spi't]

There are also lots of desired automations/AI's for FTTW as well Night, so there is no shortage of oppurtunities to put that knowledge of yours to good use

I had a thought about the Vassal tax, what if it scaled with your kingdom fealty level?

So something like (25 x Pop. Level) + ((25 x Pop. Level) x Kingdom Fealty %)

Perhaps with another bit of math on the end to reduce the % value slightly..

(though if we get an automated vassal resource offering of some sort it may not be necessary.. perhaps it could recycle the native offerings, and just increase in frequency, or perhaps have a diplo-option that lets you set their gift resource out of whatever they produce...something like that)

 

[Kailric]

I had a thought about the Vassal tax, what if it scaled with your kingdom fealty level?

So something like (25 x Pop. Level) + ((25 x Pop. Level) x Kingdom Fealty %)

Perhaps with another bit of math on the end to reduce the % value slightly..

(though if we get an automated vassal resource offering of some sort it may not be necessary.. perhaps it could recycle the native offerings, and just increase in frequency, or perhaps have a diplo-option that lets you set their gift resource out of whatever they produce...something like that)

Interesting options, when we visit this we'll have to look more into these things. There is already a tech setting that lets you get more frequent gifts. In the original Inventors mod it was called Encomienda, after the Spanish use of native labor.

 

[Trade Winds]

I have felt again how pleasant playing with MC is.

These are some of the changes I have experienced so far:

-Delayed response is disabled
-Starting with vikings and razing the first city is not a great deal
-Relics unloading works differently. I don't know how to use them now.
-All ore apears already prospected

It finally feels less buggy, but I experienced two crashes to desktop while waiting for my orders.This is very strange for me because before those, all bugs happened during the AI turn.

Now I experienced one while looking for the next place on the map to send my scout to explore to, and another CTD while deciding what to import from my mother country screen. But then after loading the previous autosave it all worked normally.

Also, I attach another sav to show a crash that occurs when attacking and declaring war to a native village.

I'll start another game and I'll try a different aproach.

 

[Lib.Spi't]

I think you might have installed yours wrong TW, 3 out of 4 of your points (haven't done vikings) did not happen to me...

are you sure you did the install, patch and then new update in that order and merged them properly to the same places?

 

[Kailric]

I think you might have installed yours wrong TW, 3 out of 4 of your points (haven't done vikings) did not happen to me...

are you sure you did the install, patch and then new update in that order and merged them properly to the same places?

Yeah, something sounds fishy, as you can't play with vikings, delay response is not disabled, and ores should be prospected

Edit: Yes, no vikings, I just checked. And also note that Teutonic Knights should not be playable, but they are.

 

[Nightinggale]

Maybe it would be good to make a "full" test build in the sense that it contains everything in assets except graphics (and possibly audio/music). That way we can be sure people have the correct files and if something is missing, it will cause pink graphics where an icon is missing. Nothing like this.

Try to disable XML cache. This is done in CivilizationIV.ini

; Disable caching of file system (may slow initialization)
DisableFileCaching = 1

; Disable caching of xml and file system (may slow initialization)
DisableCaching = 1

The XML cache is broken in M:C and should not be used. I have written code to disable it from the DLL, but I'm not sure if I finished doing that or if my "fix" is in the branch Kailric used for the test build.

 

[Kailric]

Yes, the test download contains all files, all you need is the Graphics and sound. You need the .FPK graphic files, actually, there are 8 of them. They will be in the previous version. So,

1. Remove or Rename the older version.
2. Download the test version and put the assets in Mods/Medieval_Conquest
   Test Version Here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/tqc3seial6blb22/MC AI Trader Update.rar?dl=0
3. Then, copy the 8 .FPK graphic files from the old version and the sound folder and place them in the new Mods/Medieval_Conquest/Assets folder
4. Start the game

 

[Trade Winds]

I followed Kailric's instructions:

Remove or Rename the older version.
Download the test version (MC AI Trader Update) and put the assets in Mods/Medieval_Conquest (from version 2.5)
Test Version Here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/tqc3seial6...pdate.rar?dl=0
Then, copy the 8 .FPK graphic files from the old version and the sound folder and place them in the new Mods/Medieval_Conquest/Assets folder
(these fpk files and sound folder are already included on v 2.5)
Start the game

I didn't patch anything else, I didn't use patch 2.5.4.2.

Edit: I have seen some graphic glitches when being atacked throwing axes, so the graphic files included in v 2.5 may not suffice as Kailric said, or I need to patch with 2.5.4.2 as Lib said.

This is what I saw:

Workers now have prospect and auto prospect buttons, and mountains and hills are not prospected, but marked with the yellow circles to be prospected.
City yields are organized in one raw.
City management buttons are on the left of its window
New law icon with scales
Trade icon on the top left
Bandits are not always taken prisoners
New boar bonus resource
You can trade other civ's contact as in old times
Something to be balanced: tools are traded half price than ore

I like the feeling that starting up your economy is not that easy, money must be well earned at first. Also, furs are easy to be produced but sold very cheaply. And tools and ore must be thoroughly traded at first if you need to progress.

But manufactured products such as wine should be more difficult to produce at the begining of the game to be coherent with the rest of the economy. The free distiling houses shouldn't be free.

I have found a bug.

I attach an auto-sav and some images when Burgundians offer me a deal where nothing is shown on the bargaining windows.
As nothing can be bargained with, I choose "It ain't happening".
At this point, I think I've declared war, but note that it seems that I'm at war only with Macon village, but not with other Burgundian villages (Arles, Lyon)

Next turn the game crashes with the following bug:

Assert Failed

File: CvTeam.cpp
Line: 1359
Expression: iCount >= getAtWarCount()
Message:

----------------------------------------------------------

I ignore it and I start a buggy war with the Burgundians.

 

[Kailric]

Thanks for the feedback. Yes, the economy is the main thing I want to work on next so please give all the suggestions you can think of that could improve it.

Each new village is given only a few starting buildings, one of which is based on the resources of the surrounding area, that must be the distiller houses you mentioned. I currently feel that to remove all starting economic buildings may cripple the start of the game too much, as it takes a few turns to build the building, perhaps even more so if trees are sparse in your starting area. Realistically, villages could spring up overnight it seemed as all those little shacks people started in were very simple constructions, so by those respects the flow is quite fitting. Also, you only have 300 turns to do most of your major empire building, so we have to take that into account. Perhaps there could be an option for longer games where you start with fewer buildings.

Thanks for the bug report, Lib reported one similar so I'll look into it asap.

 

[Lib.Spi't]

Yes I think it is the same bug as mine, I think what they are actually offering is peace (why I don't know it is something odd happening) because when I accept it it says I have made peace..

I think what mmight be happening with the village diplomacy bug, is that every time you 'see/meet' a new village, it is meeting you individualy and not as part of the whole 'Native Civ' it is a part of, and so it is doing something a bit like the initial civ meeting, where you can say 'Peace be with you' or 'Your head would look good on a pole'. The text is appearing like a trade text though, so you don't recognise it as that initial meeting setup.

I found the making of goods like wine to not be that much of an issue in terms of making money first thing, because the villages don't have their usual bundle of cash, because they are spending it on things like improvements, so the wine and ale is really just a slightly better barter item, until you can get to the spice route and do some real trading.

Also the fact that you have to put someone in the building means you have to not put them somewhere else, like law, fealty, faith, construction, tools or raw materials, and with the starting limits of pop (I think it is 4-6.. without buildings?) that leaves you having to make choices about priorities constantly. (at least that was what I found especially with the new civic maintenance).

On a side note, I wonder if we could make civic maintenance scale with some thing like population?

I think the values are really great at the start, high enough to make you work for them, but not insanely high that you can't get there. I wonder though if they will just get too easy later on?

Mostly I am thinking about money maintenace again, where you start making big chunks of money.. But it would stand to reason that a large empire would need more administration, etc. as well.

Oh wow... did anybody else know that nobles/Lux. Units required 3 food? Is it just the noble unit group that are like this or is it the same for specialists as well? (It's a nice touch)

I am not sure if the King's Forest, or maybe the deer resource is working properly.. I built on on a patch of deer, but all it gets is 4 food or 5 logs, not lux or hides? Normal wood without deer gets this, but not deer... I think?

I can't work it out... some forest has lux/hide and others don't... but I am looking at to conif forest on grassland and they are different?!? is there a rule I am not seeing?

Are stone paved roads supposed to be the early road type? I thought they came in after the discovery of stone?

 

[Nightinggale]

I found the making of goods like wine to not be that much of an issue in terms of making money first thing, because the villages don't have their usual bundle of cash, because they are spending it on things like improvements

This mean the AI needs to learn not to spend all it's money on improvements. Something like calculating the value of the cities and keep a minimum of X percentage of that. I'm not sure that is the best way, but at least it will scale with civ size.

On a side note, I wonder if we could make civic maintenance scale with some thing like population?

I have been thinking the same thing. Something like calculating the cost for each city. Input for that calculation could be stuff like distance to capital, plotgroup with capital, population and stuff. Maybe some general costs modifiers like plots owned could also be nice.

It should be a penalty for spreading faster than you can maintain control of your new land, but at the same time the penalty should be minor enough not to really restrict you from being expressionistic.

We should really improve this part, but it's tricky due to game balance, game fun and possibly performance.

Oh wow... did anybody else know that nobles/Lux. Units required 3 food? Is it just the noble unit group that are like this or is it the same for specialists as well? (It's a nice touch)

I didn't notice, but I like it
Stuff like this can be modified with CivEffects too. It can assign +/- food requirements for all or for specific unit classes. I capped it at can't get lower than 1 though. Without the cap, there would be a theoretically possibility of a player collecting all the food reductions and end up with negative food requirements. Imagine a city gaining +1 food for each citizen and how fast that would produce new units

 

[Lib.Spi't]

I don't think the AI spending it's money on improvements is a problem, it expands itself, quickly and in the long term you get the benefits of an auto connecting trade network, that you just have to 'plug into'.

The bartering of the early game is good as well, as it really makes the economy feel like it is evolving along with the trade perks.

 

[Nightinggale]

There is a difference between spending on improvement and then spending everything and not be able to buy needed goods when offered. Still I do agree that it is a good thing, that the minor AI is trying to improve the plots.

 

[Lib.Spi't]

The thing is, most goods that you sell are not 'really' needed. The production goods that they desire don't really have a purpose at the moment, it was just the system for letting colonists make money from natives, so it seems like a barter/swap system makes more sense when dealing with minor civs (I mean major civs never have any money to buy 'useless' products either) so until a significant use for goods is introduced, buying improvements is the smarter option.

Wow... is the AI actually doing something smart?!? (Does anyone else feel the need to double check the nuclear launch codes?)

 

[Kailric]

Wow... is the AI actually doing something smart?!? (Does anyone else feel the need to double check the nuclear launch codes?)

Yeah, if we have our way with the AI you'll eventually get a message saying, "Your Peasant Farmer has gained control of your PC, he is now playing you."

Yes I think it is the same bug as mine, I think what they are actually offering is peace (why I don't know it is something odd happening) because when I accept it it says I have made peace..

I think what mmight be happening with the village diplomacy bug, is that every time you 'see/meet' a new village, it is meeting you individualy and not as part of the whole 'Native Civ' it is a part of, and so it is doing something a bit like the initial civ meeting, where you can say 'Peace be with you' or 'Your head would look good on a pole'. The text is appearing like a trade text though, so you don't recognise it as that initial meeting setup.

Not sure about this, don't know of anything that would cause that kind of reaction but I am looking into it.

On a side note, I wonder if we could make civic maintenance scale with some thing like population?

I think the values are really great at the start, high enough to make you work for them, but not insanely high that you can't get there. I wonder though if they will just get too easy later on?

Mostly I am thinking about money maintenace again, where you start making big chunks of money.. But it would stand to reason that a large empire would need more administration, etc. as well.

You and Night may be on to something good here. Scaling it that way would make you constantly have to consider your choices. Right now the way it is "scaled" is the higher tear Civics cost more. With play testing we can figure out a good balance here.

Oh wow... did anybody else know that nobles/Lux. Units required 3 food? Is it just the noble unit group that are like this or is it the same for specialists as well? (It's a nice touch)

Do they really? I don't recall changing that, it does sound like a decent idea though.

I am not sure if the King's Forest, or maybe the deer resource is working properly.. I built on on a patch of deer, but all it gets is 4 food or 5 logs, not lux or hides? Normal wood without deer gets this, but not deer... I think?

I can't work it out... some forest has lux/hide and others don't... but I am looking at to conif forest on grassland and they are different?!? is there a rule I am not seeing?

Yeah, I think I recall some issues with it. Will check this out.

Are stone paved roads supposed to be the early road type? I thought they came in after the discovery of stone?

Yeah, they shouldn't come too early. Can't remember if I changed up their order in the Tech Tree or not, but I remember thinking they should come a bit earlier.

 

[Lib.Spi't]

Native Diplomacy:

Could it be something like the fixing of vassals, you siad at one point they were acting as the same faction, or different factions, something like that, which was why things like taxing were not working properly.. could it be some kind of knock on effect from that?

Stone Roads:
Could this be some kind of glitch with the fact that stone is now removed until discovered? Like it has broken the 'stone prereq' for stone paved roads and now they are just there?

It is possible I discovered the tech needed without realising, as you don't get a tech splash screen like bts, but I don't think I have.. like I said I thought it came after you get stone..

Noble food:
It seemed to be so, I looked in one city and it went from +4 to +1 when I added a 'Recruit' to the city, something else may have been at work, but I don't think so. I haven't tried it with more units in more cities yet though.

AI Uprising:
It would be even more unsettling if you just got an 'alert' message saying "You will now go and make Wine".....

Civic Scaling:
I definately think the prices are good for the early game, I have just gotten to the point of activating all 5 civic types, I am at 1050ad-ish. (Normal Speed)

I don't know how it will effect me going forward, I have about 7-8 cities I think. I only really have plans to build one more which is my Nothern Trade Harbour(Unless South is closer/better) Any other city would just be for the sake of building the most massive empire I can(Oh and I need an Outpost for war engines). (I am still really bad at making Garrison Troops.. That is what I am trying to focus towards now.)