Temüjin VIII
Fluyts, Grand Vizier of Your Mind
But should the cost adjustments still be based on Regent? Maybe comparing Regent with other difficulties would help, though idk how tech should progress for both human and AI based on difficulty.
Feedback: Tech Progression
- Thread starter Leoreth
- Start date
Royal Tenenbaum
Exiled
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2012
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- 2,738
Playing 1700 ad, regent, marathon reaches the 1940's by the 1880's, with the English, Dutch, and French teching way too fast. Even with Amsterdam taken out, the Dutch just have too high of a tech modifier. The Dutch often beat the French to the Eiffel Tower, around 1820! The British teched Flight by the 1850s, and built Wembley in the 1870s.
Shouldn't the British still be using Redcoats by the time of the revolution? This is certainly not the case. They always have riflemen.
Most recent release, not Git.
Shouldn't the British still be using Redcoats by the time of the revolution? This is certainly not the case. They always have riflemen.
Most recent release, not Git.
Temüjin VIII
Fluyts, Grand Vizier of Your Mind
Most recent release, as in v1.15.0-rc4? Well, according to my calculations, even in the most recent tech cost revisions I suggested, the total tech costs per era are still relatively cheaper there than in the vanilla tech tree. (Second revision section of this sheet) Renaissance, Industrial, and Global Eras currently have lower total tech costs compared to the vanilla tech tree (not sure if it's valid but I'm using the comparison as a rough estimate of tech speed).
Also, I think we have to look at the actual techs researched per civ. Have you looked into it in the World Builder? Let us always bear in mind that the AI is currently very fond of beelining. A LOT. Especially military techs (according to Leoreth). Exploration, Geography, Machine Tools, and Ballistics, to name a few. I mean, if for instance England is already in the Global Era yet still has like only 10 or 11 out of 21 Industrial Era techs researched, then it doesn't seem like increasing tech costs even further would help.
Also, I think we have to look at the actual techs researched per civ. Have you looked into it in the World Builder? Let us always bear in mind that the AI is currently very fond of beelining. A LOT. Especially military techs (according to Leoreth). Exploration, Geography, Machine Tools, and Ballistics, to name a few. I mean, if for instance England is already in the Global Era yet still has like only 10 or 11 out of 21 Industrial Era techs researched, then it doesn't seem like increasing tech costs even further would help.
Temüjin VIII
Fluyts, Grand Vizier of Your Mind
Hey, I suggest having Exploration require Firearms. I've mentioned this before, though only in passing. AI European nations tend to beeline Exploration, usually skipping Firearms. It would be weird for them to start exploring without arquebus/muskets, especially those who become American conquerors. Lack of firearms will also make subjugating America more difficult.
EDIT: I would also like to reiterate a suggestion made by someone else in the past (forgot who but credits): have Scientific Method give +10%
to all cities to compensate for the obsoletion of monasteries, especially for those who also depend on them to maximize science output. 
EDIT: I would also like to reiterate a suggestion made by someone else in the past (forgot who but credits): have Scientific Method give +10%
to all cities to compensate for the obsoletion of monasteries, especially for those who also depend on them to maximize science output.
Last edited:
I don't know if you are already aware of this, but in K-Mod they can. Karadoc created this effect to:
have Scientific Method give +10%
Temüjin VIII
Fluyts, Grand Vizier of Your Mind
I'm aware of that, but you have to invest more beakers and a lot of hammers for that. The obsoletion of monasteries will create a setback big enough, especially if you have many monasteries and your base research yield is already high. Also, for civs with not-so-good production, they may have to include an additional task of getting a Great Engineer, which in itself has a fraction of it as luck.
ozqar
King
I actually find myself often delaying researching the scientific method to avoid having the monasteries go obsolete, and that shouldn't make sense. In theory, the scientific method should shift research from religious to secular institutions. So either, having it give a bonus based on city population, or a bonus to normal citizens, or increase the research output of libraries and universities, would all be good options in addition to the new buildings it provides.
Tigranes
Armenian
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- Sep 11, 2008
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I agree with you. It is very silly that science output declines with Method , instead of the other way around. One of the most accurate ways would be for Universities to become +10% stronger after the Method. Universities and their professors may have had greater influence on society in the Renaissance and Reformation than in any era before or since. That influence endures to this day. Many of them were founded and supported by religious figures. A 1643 publication gave the Harvard University's purpose as "to advance learning and perpetuate it to posterity, dreading to leave an illiterate ministry to the churches when our present ministers shall lie in the dust"
. In would not be a terrible thing to see Universities becoming more productive with the establishment of the Method, if anything it would restore the balance. Especially given the fact that for the most cities it is easier to have one or even more than one cheaper Monastery compared with only one more expensive University.But of course this would create a precedent: up to now everything becomes more productive with better techs -- land, improvements, workers -- except for the buildings. Old building never become more efficient with new techs in DoC, instead one is encoaraged to build new building that become available, such as labs.
catacau
Chieftain
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- Oct 7, 2012
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I kind like the obsolete effect on monasteries... That's a punishment for Civ's who science production relies on it's religion. But i also think that Scientific Method should give a bonus on science. Is possible to give Great Scientist a bonus after discovering the tech? Or to libraries?
ozqar
King
But the main issue is that, through the middle ages, it's a viable strategy to build monasteries for scientific output (I disagree with Cacatau that this strategy should be punished) and the scientific method obsoletes this without any meaningful compensation. A free great scientist is only good for one civ, and the additional buildings have to be intentionally built (and they're costly, as Steb points out), so, all in all, there's still a disincentive to research the scientific method. Instead, it should provide an immediate bonus on anything existing already (e.g., infrastructure or population, as I suggested above); the free Great Scientist would be nice in addition, but not by itself. The scientific method was a revolutionary invention, we shouldn't shy away from it having huge impacts.
Perhaps the easiest and most elegant solution is to... cancel the obsolescence of monasteries.
After all, monasteries, madrassas, yeshivas, etc. are still around, and while they don't contribute much to modern scientific research, you could argue that religious thinkers have been influential in the more social-themed techs. (And there are examples of cleric-scientists, like Gregor Mendel or Georges Lemaître.)
After all, monasteries, madrassas, yeshivas, etc. are still around, and while they don't contribute much to modern scientific research, you could argue that religious thinkers have been influential in the more social-themed techs. (And there are examples of cleric-scientists, like Gregor Mendel or Georges Lemaître.)
Tigranes
Armenian
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- Sep 11, 2008
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What about the second civ who finally leaves the monasteries for the glory of the scientific method? The moment he does his science production will drop 10%! Assuming he had 1 monastery in his cities. But China and India can loose 20%! Please be fair to all the civs not just the first one who discovered stuff. Like they are not run away already!
Ogi123
The End is the Beginning is the End
Then monasteries will need to be really cheaper or get some other effect. Perhaps reduce their price by 20
and give them scientist slot?Rodnok
Prince
I don't like it. It's pretty ahistorical and it is taking away the interesting decision: is the hammer cost of a monastery worthy these 10 % extra? Usually you do not build all of them just for missionaries. Even scientist slot is not compensating that - library would come first if you want this and 3 hungry scientists eat a lot of food early.
I agree another bonus for the 1st civ does not really solve anything but dropping 10 % of science is a pretty bad math. And not only monasteries increase science output.
IMHO national college replaces the drop in science for Scientific Method... when you built it. Maybe move the national college to earlier point (when universities are allowed)? That means, of course, people would build universities and the national college at Academia tech, delay Scientific Method if someone already has it and still moan about losing a science production later
.What about extra bonus for libraries or (preferably) universities at Scientific Method? That would represent moving the real science out of monasteries into universities. 10 procent more for universities. If thats possible.
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