Feedback: Tech tree

Indeed. And usually you only need one tier 3 military unit to do whatever you want. So my approach is usually to focus on one tech branch until I have a tier 3 unit, and then start researching all the cheap techs I temporarily passed by.
Right, and that's generally the best approach. I might go for longbowmen, macemen, or rangers depending on what sort of game I'm playing, but they can stand in for each other well enough that there's no need to research down a whole separate branch for them.
Once I have a fully functional tech tree I'll be sure to share it .. probably just in time for it to become outdated with Fire.

And that's what I'm worried about for my tree. Then again, Light was supposed to be the phase where all the nuts and bolts got put together. I feel sort of funny saying this, but hopefully Fire won't have a whole bunch of new features to throw off any fan-made trees.:lol:
 
A solution I'd like to suggest is to reduce the difference in research costs between the different levels, but instead add a certain percentage to ALL tech's research costs for each tech you have researched. As in SMAC, but less extreme. This would cause the lower level tech costs to increase if you choose to pursue one branch first.

I don't like that idea because it's counter-intuitive. As a player, I'd expect the time taken to research an earlier tech to only go down as time passes and my empire expands (as it does now), not go up each time I develop a new technology.
 
I still visualize some sort of "rose trellis" (better than "frond") structure. Long periods of time pass between revolutionary breakthrough techs (the rose stems.) These trigger periods of rapid but incremental progress, as the breakthrough is applied to solve various problems (the rose blooms.)

Iron working serves as an obvious candidate for a "stem" technology. The various tier3 combat units again make an obvious example of "flower" techs. Once iron is workable, a society would put that tech to use to feild units it needed to meet its needs. A nation constanly raided by horsemen would rapidly find a way to use Iron to help tham against their traditional enemy.

Every age would have fast techs and slow techs, compared now, where all early techs are "fast" and all later techs are "slow". I think this is a better model for how tech spreads in "real life". But more importanly, I think it fits with the sort of progress made in FfH. As mentioned, some of the upper tier improvements are not so special compared to earlier techs. Well, incremental advances ate upper tech levels are fine... if you pay incremental costs to obtain them. Gather those togetehr into "rose blooms".

Of course just because this seems like a good idea accoriding to a vague mental outline, that does not mean it is codeable. Or AI-friendly. Or not open to huge new exploits. :lol:
 
I still visualize some sort of "rose trellis" (better than "frond") structure. Long periods of time pass between revolutionary breakthrough techs (the rose stems.) These trigger periods of rapid but incremental progress, as the breakthrough is applied to solve various problems (the rose blooms.)

Iron working serves as an obvious candidate for a "stem" technology. The various tier3 combat units again make an obvious example of "flower" techs. Once iron is workable, a society would put that tech to use to feild units it needed to meet its needs. A nation constanly raided by horsemen would rapidly find a way to use Iron to help tham against their traditional enemy.

Every age would have fast techs and slow techs, compared now, where all early techs are "fast" and all later techs are "slow". I think this is a better model for how tech spreads in "real life". But more importanly, I think it fits with the sort of progress made in FfH. As mentioned, some of the upper tier improvements are not so special compared to earlier techs. Well, incremental advances ate upper tech levels are fine... if you pay incremental costs to obtain them. Gather those togetehr into "rose blooms".

Of course just because this seems like a good idea accoriding to a vague mental outline, that does not mean it is codeable. Or AI-friendly. Or not open to huge new exploits. :lol:

I think the main issue is linking up those fronds (I will not say "rose trellis") is the tough part. Doing so in a balanced way might be a challenge. That said, I might also incorperate something like that into my prototype tree.
 
Actually, it might be very compatable with Maniac's fondness for -or- requisites. You'd research a main frond root, then any two of the fronds would let you pass onto the next in line. It would give more choice to the player, I think.
 
Let me bring this up to the most recent page, so I can find it easier...

Hm... if we're just going to reshuffle the current tree, then this might be redundant, but I think it would be beneficial to have a list of all the features that can be gotten with techs. I'll make a list and try to sort it based on both "flavor" (economic, military, etc.) and value (to determine where it should go).

Spoiler feature list :
Military
Units
Standard
Archer **
Axeman **
Hunter **
Horseman **
Assassin ***
Chariot ***
Crossbowman ***
Horse Archer ***
Longbowman ***
Maceman ***
Pikeman ***
Ranger ***
Arquebus ****
Beastmaster ****
Berzerker ****
Camel Archer ****
Flurry ****
Heavy Crossbowman ****
Immortal ****
Knight ****
Marksman ****
Shadow ****
Shield Wall ****
Spartaiatoi ****
War Chariot ****
War Elephant ****
Spellcaster
Adept **
Mage ***
Priest ***
Summoner ****
Archmage ****
Inquisitor ****
High Priest ****
Druid ****
Disciple
Prophet *
Disciple (missionary) **
The Drown **
Soldier of Kilmorph **
Archer of Leaves **
Diseased Corpse ***
Stygian Guard ***
Paramander ***
Crusader ***
Eidolon ****
Paladin ****
Naval
Dragonship **
Trireme **
Galley **
Caravel ***
Arcane Barge ***
Galleon ***
Pirate ***
Man O'War ****
Queen of the Line ****
Siege
Catapult **
Cannon ***
Misc.
Hawk **
Royal Guard ***
Mercenary ***
Beat of Agares ****
Copper Golem ****
Heroes
Religious
Bambur **
Kithra Kyriel **
Saverous **
Valin Phanuel ***
Rosier the Fallen ***
Yvain the Woodelf ****
Hemah ****
Arthendain ****
Sphener *****
Mardero *****
Civilization
Donal Lugh ****
Chalid Astrakein ****
Corlindale ****
Barnaxus **
Eurabatres *****
Gilden Silveric **
Maros ****
Rathus Denmora ***
The Dark Wind ***
Guybrush Threepwood ***
Magnadine ****
Govannon ***
The War Machine ****
Loki **
Rantine ***
Losha Valas ****
Abashi *****
Avatars
Avatar of Wrath *****
Meshabber of Dis *****
The Mithril Golem *****
Others
Baron Duin Halfmorn ****
Trojan Horse ***
Typhoid Mary ***
Buildings
Unit-enabling
Training Yard **
Stables **
Archery Range **
Hunting Lodge **
Mage Guild **
Siege Workshop **
Drydock ***
Castle ***
Bowyer ***
Grove ****
Hippodrome ****
Machine Workshop ****
Large Animal Stables ****
Weaponsmith ****
Armorsmith ****
Castle ****
Bear Totem ****
Golem Workshop ****
Misc.
Walls **
Command Post ***
Economy
Actions
Worker
Build Farm *
Build Mine *
Build Roads *
Build Pasture **
Build Plantation **
Build Winery **
Build Camp **
Build Quarry **
Build Cottage **
Build Fishing Boats **
Chop Forests **
Build Fort **
Build Workshop ***
Build Whaling Boats ***
Chop Jungles ***
Build Windmill ***
Build Watermill ***
Build Lumbermill ***
Scrub "Fallout" ****
Adept
Build Node ***
Buildings
Bonus
Market **
Obelisk **
Elder Council **
Theatre ***
Alchemy Lab ***
Gambling House ****
Happy/Health
Festival *
Aqueduct **
Brewery **
Public Baths ***
Infermery ***
Multipliers
Harbor **
Library **
Granary **
Smokehouse **
Moneychanger **
Forge ***
Courthouse ***
Tax Office ***
Dungeon ***
Religious
Pagan Temple *
Religious Temple **
Demon's Altar ***
Asylum ***
Basilica ***
Misc.
Inn **
Lighthouse **
Ring of Warding **
Tavern ***
Obsidian Gate ****
Civics
Apprenticeship *
City States *
Agriculture **
God King **
Military State **
Caste System **
Guilds ***
Aristocracy ***
Free Trade ***
Warfare ***
Arete ***
Slavery ***
Sacrifice the Weak ***
Social Order ***
Guardian of Nature ***
Crusade ***
Public Healers ***
Mercantilism ***
Republic ***
Free Religion ***
Liberty ***
Religious Discipline ****
Scholarship ****
Wonders
World
Pact of the Nihlorn **
Tomb of Sucellus **
Core of the Subtle **
Form of the Titan **
Catacombs Libralus **
Eternal Flame **
The Great Lighthouse ***
Winter Palace ***
Aquae Sucellus ***
Syliven's Perfect Lyre ***
Twisted Spire ***
Infernal Grimoire ***
Temple of Temporance ***
Hall of Kings ***
Tower of Eyes ***
Bone Palace ***
Ygdrasil ***
Eyes and Ears Network ***
Guild of Endeavors ***
The Great Library ****
Crown of Akharien ****
Soul Forge ****
The Nexus ****
Tower of Mastery *****
National
National Epic ***
Bazaar of Mammon ***
Heroic Epic ***
Tower of Elements ***
Tower of Necromancy ***
Tower of Alteration ***
Tower of Divination ***
Rituals
Nature's Revolt ***
Rites of Oghma ****
Glory Everlasting ****
Bane Divine ****
Apocalypse ****
Armageddon ****
Inter-Civilization
Diplomacy
Open Borders **
Gold Trading **
Map Trading ***
Tech Trading ***
Defensive Pact ***
Permanent Alliance ****
Trade
Can Trade on Coast **
Can Trade Across Ocean ***
Miscellaneous
+1 Trade routes per city (2)
+1 Road movement (2)
Enables Bridge Building
+1 Commerce per village, town
+1 Hammer per lumbermill
+1 Hammer per workshop
+1 Hammer per windmill
+1 Hammer per watermill
+1 Sight over water
Allows Sentry I
Allows [race] Slaying
Allows Scourge
Allows City Raider
Allows City Garrison
Allows Undead Slaying
Allows Demon Slaying
Allows Mobility
Allows Woodsman II
Allows Guerilla II
Founds [religion]


That's what's currently in the mod. If we're going to completely redesign the tree, then we're going to have to completely redistribute all that... a formidable task. I can see where the status quo might be favored here.
 
I don't like that idea because it's counter-intuitive. As a player, I'd expect the time taken to research an earlier tech to only go down as time passes and my empire expands (as it does now), not go up each time I develop a new technology.

Your economy would normally grow faster than the costs of techs increase, meaning it would still take less turns to research lower level techs.
 
Funny you would have that list handy. I am 99% done with the layout of the Tech tree which I am working on. I was looking at all of the "redistributions" which I would need/want to make, and it occured to me that I may not want to actually make those changes yet - especially since we can be perfectly sure that fire et al will add new things for us to consider (not to mention the main reason why I am creating a new tech tree for a Beta mod is so that I can learn about the process and possibly contribute to the final product of the mod -- I'm not trying to make a competing mod, or even a mod of a mod, since FFH is still in a Beta format its self).

Anyways, like I said, I am 99% done with my version of the tech tree (the only stipulation I set myself - which I did not want to do, but did anyways - was that I am using every tech in the FFH tree and not adding any new ones... Only reshuffling the existing techs so that the developers of this incredible mod have another look at a way to layout the techs, who knows - maybe they'll even like parts of it enough to use them.)
 
Funny you would have that list handy. I am 99% done with the layout of the Tech tree which I am working on. I was looking at all of the "redistributions" which I would need/want to make, and it occured to me that I may not want to actually make those changes yet - especially since we can be perfectly sure that fire et al will add new things for us to consider (not to mention the main reason why I am creating a new tech tree for a Beta mod is so that I can learn about the process and possibly contribute to the final product of the mod -- I'm not trying to make a competing mod, or even a mod of a mod, since FFH is still in a Beta format its self).

Anyways, like I said, I am 99% done with my version of the tech tree (the only stipulation I set myself - which I did not want to do, but did anyways - was that I am using every tech in the FFH tree and not adding any new ones... Only reshuffling the existing techs so that the developers of this incredible mod have another look at a way to layout the techs, who knows - maybe they'll even like parts of it enough to use them.)

That's the approach I took when working with Sureshot. If you look at her mod (well, the one with just the tech tree changed), you'll see that most of the techs are just reshuffled and reconnected.
 
That's the approach I took when working with Sureshot. If you look at her mod (well, the one with just the tech tree changed), you'll see that most of the techs are just reshuffled and reconnected.

and in a much prettier way
 
Downloaded and will give it a whirl a few times. I want to play a few games using my tech tree as well - Then I'll be able to comment more about what I think would make the default tree better.
 
For a complete reshuffle, it would be a good idea to list out all of the features by desired placement in the tree.

Tier-1 Features
Prophet, farms, mines, roads, fishing boats, pagan temples, apprenticeship, city states, Mobility I.

I think that both prophets and pagan temples are not particularly useful. Grouping them with an already valuable tech like the current Mysticism isn't necessary. Also, note that I'd only open up the first mobility promotion with a tier-1 tech.

Tier-2 Features
Archer, hunter, archery range, hunting lodge, walls, pasture, plantation, camp, quarry, cottage, forest chopping, festivals, Tomb of Sucellus, Core of the Subtle, open borders, [race] slaying, Loki, obelisks, elder councils, granaries, smoke houses.

Many more features here. Moving archers and hunters will help differentiate between them and the other tier-2 units. Forest chopping also comes sooner (to make forests less of a curse), open borders come later, and the race slaying promotions also come later (they're valuable enough to warrant it).

Tier-3 Features
Axeman, horseman, disciples, dragonship, trireme, galley, catapult, hawk, Barnaxus, training yard, stables, walls, winery, forts, markets, breweries, religious temples, lighthouses, libraries, rings of warding, military state, caste system, pact of the Nihlorn, form of the titan, gold trading, trade on coast, found first three religions, Mobility II, demon slaying, undead slaying, disciple slaying, the drown, soldiers of Kilmorph, archers of leaves, Gilden Silveric, siege workshop, courthouse, trade maps, trade techs, sentry.

Even more stuff here. rings of warding come earlier (should help the opponents of an early summoner rush), Pact of the Nihlorn comes later (makes sense, with the HN giants), Mobility II comes much later (it is a powerful promotion), and the religions get founded.

Tier-4 Features
Adept, diseased corpse, caravel, royal guard, mercenary, Bambur, Kithra Kyriel, Saverous, The Dark Wind, Guybrush Threepwood, Rantine, Trojan Horse, mage guild, command post, build workshop, build whaling boats, chop jungles, build windmill, build watermill, build lumbermill, build node, theater, public baths, aqueduct, moneychanger, forge, inn, tavern, free trade, warfare, eternal flame, the great lighthouse, aquae Sucellus, national epic, heroic epic, bazaar of mammon, trade gold, +1 road movement, tower of [magic category], found later two religions, arcane barge, asylum, arete, slavery, guardian of nature, protect the meek, infernal grimoire, woodsman II, guerilla II, city raider, city garrison.

Man, the list of items per tech just keeps expanding. I might have to split it up further to gain some cohesiveness.

Tier-5 Features
Chariot, assassin, crossbowman, pikeman, mage, priest, Valin Phanuel, Rosier the Fallen, galleon, pirate, Govannon, Rathus Denmora, Baron Duin Halfmorn, Typhoid Mary, drydock, castle, bowyer, command post, alchemy lab, gambling house, infirmary, tax office, basilica, demon's altar, crusade, public healers, sacrifice the weak, social order, mercantilism, twisted spire, temple of temporance, hall of kings, tower of eyes, bone palace, Yggdrasil, The Great Library, guild of endeavors, nature's revolt, defensive pact, crusader, stygian guard, paramander, Govannon, machine workshop, dungeon, republic, liberty.

Move along, nothing to see here.

Tier-6 Features
Horse archer, longbowman, maceman, ranger, queen of the line, mage, conjurer, Yvain the woodelf, Hemah, Arthendain, Donal Lugh, Chalid Astrakein, Corlindale, Maros, Magnadine, The War Machine, Losha Valas, religious discipline, scholarship, grove, hippodrome, scrub "fallout," Crown of Akharien, Soul Forge, permanant alliance.

Tier-7 Features
Tier-4 military units (there's a lot of them), druid, Eidolon, Paladin, man o' war, beast of Agares, Sphener, Mardero, Abashi, Eurabatres, tier-4 unit enabling buildings (there's a lot of them), obsidian gate, the Nexus, apocalypse ritual, armageddon ritual, cannon

Tier-8 Features
Archmage, inquisitor, high priest, summoner, copper golem, Avatar of Wrath, Meshabber of Dis, Mithril Golem, golem workshop, Tower of Mastery, glory everlasting, bane divine.

And so the list tapers. Apologies for spamming the thread, but I like to have my thought process outlined somewhere I can access from anywhere.

Hm... if I just have 8 tiers of techs, I'm really not improving on the current tree. I'll have to stretch it out more.

Edit: Instead of making more posts, I'll just put my work in ASCII format here:
Code:
 __________________________________   __________________________________________   _______________________________   _________________________________   ____________________________
|Mysticism                         | |Fishing                                   | |Exploration                    | |Mining                           | |Agriculture                 |
|----------------------------------| |------------------------------------------| |-------------------------------| |---------------------------------| |----------------------------|
|Allows [b]Prophet, Pagan Temple[/b]      | |Allows [b]Fishing Boats[/b], can work water tiles| |Allows [b]Build a Road, Mobility I[/b]| |Allows [b]Build a Mine[/b]              | |Allows [b]Build a Farm[/b]         |
|[u]Leads to Ancient Chants, Education[/u]| |[u]Leads to Sailing, Archery                 [/u]| |[u]Leads to Hunting, Cartography  [/u]| |[u]Leads to Crafting, Bronze Working[/u]| |[u]Leads to Calendar, Education[/u]|
                     |        |_________                 |            |                       |                  |                          |     |______               |
 ____________________|________________  |  ______________|__________  |  _____________________|________________  |  ________________________|__________  |  ____________|____________________________________________________
|Ancient Chants                       | | |Sailing                  | | |Hunting                               | | |Crafting                           | | |Calendar                                                         |
|-------------------------------------| | |-------------------------| | |--------------------------------------| | |-----------------------------------| | |-----------------------------------------------------------------|
|Requires [i]Mysticism[/i]                   | | |Requires [i]Fishing[/i]         | | |Requires [i]Exploration[/i]                  | | |Requires [i]Mining[/i]                    | | |Requires [i]Agriculture[/i]                                             |
|Allows [b]Obelisks, [Race] Slaying[/b]      | | |Allows [b]Galley, Lighthouse[/b]| | |Allows [b]Hunting Lodge, Camp, Smokehouse[/b]| | |Allows [b]Quarry, Walls, Chop a forest[/b]| | |Allows [b]Build a Plantation, Tomb of Sucellus, Agriculture, Granary[/b]|
|[u]Leads to Festivals, Organized Worship[/u]| | |[u]Leads to Chines          [/u]| | |[u]Leads to Archery, Tracking            [/u]| | |[u]Leads to Masonry[/u]                   | | |[u]Leads to Festivals, Animal Husbandry                             [/u]|
 _____|                                 |                             |    |                                     |                    |_________________ |____________                           |
|  _____________________________________|_______   ___________________|____|___   _______________________________|_______   __________________________  |  ___________|_______________   ________|_________________________   _____________________________
| |Education                                    | |Archery                     | |Cartography                            | |Animal Husbandry          | | |Bronze Working             | |Festivals                        | |Tracking                     |
| |---------------------------------------------| |----------------------------| |---------------------------------------| |--------------------------| | |---------------------------| |---------------------------------| |-----------------------------|
| |Requires [i]Mysticism, Agriculture[/i]              | |Requires [i]Fishing, Hunting[/i]   | |Requires [i]Exploration[/i]                   | |Requires [i]Hunting, Calendar[/i]| | |Requires [i]Mining[/i]            | |Requires [i]Ancient Chants, Calendar[/i]| |Requires [i]Hunting, Cartography[/i]|
| |Allows [b]Cottage, Elder Council, Apprenticeship[/b]| |Allows [b]Archery Range, Archer[/b]| |Allows [b]map trading, Pact of the Nihlorn[/b]| |Allows [b]Pasture, horses[/b]    | | |Allows [b]copper, chop forests[/b]| |Allows [b]Festival, Loki[/b]            | |Allows [b]Hunter, Hawk[/b]          |
| |[u]Leads to Writing                             [/u]| |[u]Leads to Composites         [/u]| |[u]Leads to Tracking                      [/u]| |[u]Leads to Horseback Riding [/u]| | |[u]Leads to Bronze Weapons     [/u]| |[u]Leads to...                      [/u]| |[u]Leads to...                  [/u]|
|___                                       |                                 |                                                                          |
 ___|______________________________   _____|_______________________________  |  ____________________________________________ 
|Organized Worship                 | |Writing                              | | |Chines                                      |
|----------------------------------| |-------------------------------------| | |--------------------------------------------|
|Requires [i]Ancient Chants, Festivals[/i]| |Requires [i]Education, (Cart. Or Calen.)[/i]| | |Requires [i]Sailing, (BW or Archery)[/i]           |
|Allows [b]God King[/b]                   | |Allows [b]Library[/b], free GS              | | |Allows [b]Trireme (w/ Arch), Dragonship (w/ BW)[/b]|
|[u]Leads to...                       [/u]| |[u]Leads to Code of Laws                [/u]| | |[u]Leads to...                                 [/u]|

Hm... it looks like -or- requisites aren't as easy to engineer in this part of the tree. I hope I'll be forgiven for skimping on them at the moment. For now, I have a whole new design I'm trying out. Whatever else it may be, this tree is certainly different.
 
Ok, here is the link for my tech tree - it is quite different from the default, or either of the two alternate ones I have looked at. The only file I have changed is the Tech XML file - and that is almost completely to change the location of the techs. ALL default techs are included, and no additional techs have been added. The costs for the techs use a formula which I came up with on the fly == x-coord * x-coord * 40. I may change this formula to x-coord * x-coord * 40 + y-coord .. This would have very little actual effect upon the cost - but because of my layout, the net effect throughout game play should be that the AI would research more combat orriented techs, upgrade their units quicker, and pose a more millitaristic challenge. (slighly)

Anyways, here is the link:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/109168/CIV4TechInfos.rar
 
One thing I noticed looking over the tech tree, and I was wondering if this was intentional. I'm playing at Marathon speed, and looking over the second tier of techs.
Calender: 612
Animal Husbandry: 687
Fishing: 612
Hunting: 1758
Cartography: 765
Mining: 765
Masonry: 534
Education: 1071
Mysticism: 765
Is hunting suppose to be over seven hundred beakers more than everything else in the tier?
 
-2 "you use death mana".
:lol: Well done.


One thing I noticed looking over the tech tree, and I was wondering if this was intentional. I'm playing at Marathon speed, and looking over the second tier of techs.
Calender: 612
Animal Husbandry: 687
Fishing: 612
Hunting: 1758
Cartography: 765
Mining: 765
Masonry: 534
Education: 1071
Mysticism: 765
Is hunting suppose to be over seven hundred beakers more than everything else in the tier?

The research cost of Hunting is intentional. Techs in the same column are not necessarily similar in power level, usefullness, or research cost.
 
Hunting is far too expensive and makes Hunters a useless unit, as you can't delay getting an economy and then when you go back for them, they're obsolete.

Hunting shouldn't be much more expensive than Animal Husbandry.

I think it went wrong when Hunting absorbed part of the cost of Tracking. If the intention is to prevent elves rushing to FoL then the extra beakers could be dropped on the religion tech.

Its not like earlier access to Animal Handling/Poisons are going to change the game hugely, as their associated units are still underused. Compare with Stirrups tech in the Mounted line.


EDIT: And heres another thing! Hunters are available too late to capture animals!
 
It also means that hunting resources (fur and deer) go unused until much later, weakening certain starts and making early expansion less helpful on maps where the player or AI start in the far north or far south.
 
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