Feedback: Tech Tree

How about shifting the Alchemy crosslink to Writing, but then giving Steel Working itself a crosslink to Artisanry? (Currently Artisanry leads only to Guilds and nothing else.)

Perhaps you could just give the Nobility crosslink to Theology, and have Ethics only require Philosophy?

Experimenting with these. Now that I've got the civics draft posted I'm going back to addressing these various tech tree tangles. I'll post a chart when I've got something more tangible.

By the way, what's the rationale behind the Construction->Shipbuilding and Mathematics->Astronomy crosslinks? Those have both been bugging me for a while.

Simon sums things up well.

Since we have great generals and artists and such in game, why not to allow us to consume them to "build" these wonders. We could even add some low-powered wonders like Mona Lisa and such in the game. Of course you would have to unlock these wonders by certain technology at first. Just an idea..

Things like the Mona Lisa are covered under great artists' "work of art" ability, which puts you a healthy chunk of the way to Legendary culture in one of your cities. Not all the way, but a good deal closer.

Arguably, publishing great works of military science would be covered under great generals' ability to create a military academy or become a "Great Military Instructor."

Yeah I think this is what's intended by the great work / culture bomb capability of Great Artists. The link is less obvious with Great Generals but it's not unreasonable. Possibly could be expanded along these lines in the future though.
 
Even legendary military geniuses usually don't totally rewrite whole civilizations' understanding of warfare. What matters most is the slow accumulation of new theories. And most of those theories get written up by people who weren't all that amazing as military leaders- Sun Tzu never conquered a country even though he was reasonably successful. Western theorists like Clausewitz, Liddell-Hart, or Fuller mostly didn't set records either.

The WWII crop of generals included some very good armored warfare theorists (Guderian, Rommel, de Gaulle), but there they'd mostly made their marks as theorists before triumphing on the battlefield.

So I think the permanent +2 XP in one city (potentially a huge military unit factory with the right National Wonders) is about right for a Great General.
 
Even legendary military geniuses usually don't totally rewrite whole civilizations' understanding of warfare. What matters most is the slow accumulation of new theories. And most of those theories get written up by people who weren't all that amazing as military leaders- Sun Tzu never conquered a country even though he was reasonably successful. Western theorists like Clausewitz, Liddell-Hart, or Fuller mostly didn't set records either.

The WWII crop of generals included some very good armored warfare theorists (Guderian, Rommel, de Gaulle), but there they'd mostly made their marks as theorists before triumphing on the battlefield.

So I think the permanent +2 XP in one city (potentially a huge military unit factory with the right National Wonders) is about right for a Great General.

That makes good sense.
 
Democracy is supposed to allow you to adjust the espionage slider, but that's available from the beginning. To fix it, take Civ4commerceinfo from BtS and set the flexiblepercent to 0.

You're quite right. Fixed for 1.19.
 
Curious if testing has been done by starting out at later eras. My friends and I have been playing many new games starting at the Renaissance or Industrial Age and it seems like most of the Civics are already discovered.

I am thinking that some thought should go into extending the techs in the later eras to allow for more further growth in many of the civics. For example, Democracy comes a bit early and could easily be pushed a branch or two further out.

I truly enjoy the early games as it is all about discovery, but in the later eras it seems rather bland and straight forward.
 
A few changes I'm making to the tech tree for 1.20:

• Confederation: unlocked slightly earlier, at Politics
• Democracy: unlocked much later, at Civil Liberties
• Jurisdiction: unlocked slightly later, at Sociology
• Permanent Alliances: unlocked later, at Journalism
• Skirmishers: unlocked later, requiring Employment and Leatherworking​
 
Hey Xyth, just wanted to drop by and say that I am absolutely in love with the tech tree you have created for HR. It's seriously brilliant.

(I know this is a necro and a thread for constructive feedback, but since there was no general praise thread I thought it was the best place to put it)
 
Hey Xyth, just wanted to drop by and say that I am absolutely in love with the tech tree you have created for HR. It's seriously brilliant.

(I know this is a necro and a thread for constructive feedback, but since there was no general praise thread I thought it was the best place to put it)

Thanks Leoreth! The Modern Era needs some tweaks, but otherwise I'm really proud of it. The result of much hard work, iteration, and great feedback and suggestions from players.
 
Finally the creators of two of my favourite mods have a conversation! I think that your mods are the best for CIV. (A merge would be really wonderful.)
 
Finally the creators of two of my favourite mods have a conversation! I think that your mods are the best for CIV. (A merge would be really wonderful.)
I would certainly be tempted ;) Seriously though, HR is probably my greatest source of inspiration outside of the RFC mod ecosystem.
 
So if you start thinking on it now. How about a litle sugestion?
:science:
Like make a simple table in Excell...
on how you will posible see... how will tech tree table for Modern era will look?
Dont forget in second step unit a bulding assets.
 
Hi. Having finally arrived in the modern era in HR I have some feedback to give. The only complaint against the tech tree up to the industrial era is that it seems weird to see hardly anybody reach iron working until years are AD. That's just a minor detail though. But where is the modern era? I blew through it in 30 turns, every turn being 1 year (Now in the 1700s) and on Saga speed. Every 4-5 turns I was jumping to a different random decade in our last century. And I noticed that there's hardly no tech there that is actually from later than around 1970. You need another column in there atleast. Something to cover contemporary times before the future begins. And the internet is even more useless here than in the vanilla BTS.

There are also two very annoying things going on in modern times. One is that highways destroys the extra hammers from railroads. This would be fine if highways could be converted back to railways but that can't be done. Similarly, if you don't want to wait forever to get your cities electric power you simply have to go with coal or gas which pollutes alot. Again this would be fine if building a hydro- or nuclear- or solarplant later actually replaced the former dirtier source of electricity. Instead the game just stacks redundant power plants on top of each other. This being particularily bad news when I tried to switch from coal to gas. I have no memory of unmodded vanilla doing this.
 
Hi. Having finally arrived in the modern era in HR I have some feedback to give. The only complaint against the tech tree up to the industrial era is that it seems weird to see hardly anybody reach iron working until years are AD. That's just a minor detail though. But where is the modern era? I blew through it in 30 turns, every turn being 1 year (Now in the 1700s) and on Saga speed.

The Modern era is in need of an overhaul, will probably tackle it in 1.23. It's current state was only ever meant to be temporary but it's been that way for quite some time now. I'll make some adjustments to research costs for 1.22 though.

Every 4-5 turns I was jumping to a different random decade in our last century.

Some 'jumping' around the decades is to be expected. The challenge with representing the Modern era in techtree form is that we're very familiar with it and expect it to occur in a familiar sequence. To recreate this requires a lot of linearity that we don't expect of the earlier eras. Personally I prefer to mix it up a little, avoid strict determinism, and allow more choice. If America in HR wants to focus on Civil Rights before Fission or Computers, so be it. Too much jumping around is possible at the moment though.

And I noticed that there's hardly no tech there that is actually from later than around 1970. You need another column in there atleast. Something to cover contemporary times before the future begins.

That's kinda what HR's Future era is meant to represent: technologies that are still being developed, where we've yet to see the full ramifications of their introduction. I'd like to rename/redefine the Modern and Future eras to something that captures this better, but I've not yet come up with anything I like.

And the internet is even more useless here than in the vanilla BTS.

In the absence of a more extensive Future era, the Internet is pretty superfluous. Unless I come up with an interesting alternative effect, I may just remove it as a Project entirely (maybe make it a tech).

There are also two very annoying things going on in modern times. One is that highways destroys the extra hammers from railroads. This would be fine if highways could be converted back to railways but that can't be done.

Yeah, this is a pain. I was really hoping that I could keep the scheme where Railroads and Highways each have different uses, but it's looking like I might need to scrap it and make the Highways an upgrade to the Railway. The AI doesn't cope with it very well either.

Similarly, if you don't want to wait forever to get your cities electric power you simply have to go with coal or gas which pollutes alot. Again this would be fine if building a hydro- or nuclear- or solarplant later actually replaced the former dirtier source of electricity. Instead the game just stacks redundant power plants on top of each other. This being particularily bad news when I tried to switch from coal to gas. I have no memory of unmodded vanilla doing this.

Originally I didn't consider it much of a problem because you could build a Recycling Centre and negate the unhealthiness that way. But the Recycling Centre has a different effect now, so I need to review this.
 
I'm not sure if this is a good thread to post this in(edit: perhaps this should be shifted to the units thread, which I hadn't noticed) but anyway, I've been noticing something of an imbalance in the progression of military units. I've been playing a more aggressive game lately (on noble) and I've noticed that some units are way more valuable than others. On normal speed once you really get your science up the renaissance and forward techs often only take a couple turns each and once you hit gunpowder it seems like every few turns there's another unit going obsolete. Heavy footmen and crossbows are useful for what feels like forever but musketmen, cuirassiers etc seem like they only get a very short window of relevance before stronger units come along. Even playing as a tactical leader with free upgrades it barely seems worth it to use the in between units. Swordsman in the earlier era seems very short lived as well. Some civs have great UUs that just end up being impractical to really get much use out of because they become outdated so quickly while civs with an archer, crossbow, heavy footman etc UU get to milk it for way longer.
 
I'm not sure if this is a good thread to post this in(edit: perhaps this should be shifted to the units thread, which I hadn't noticed) but anyway, I've been noticing something of an imbalance in the progression of military units. I've been playing a more aggressive game lately (on noble) and I've noticed that some units are way more valuable than others. On normal speed once you really get your science up the renaissance and forward techs often only take a couple turns each and once you hit gunpowder it seems like every few turns there's another unit going obsolete. Heavy footmen and crossbows are useful for what feels like forever but musketmen, cuirassiers etc seem like they only get a very short window of relevance before stronger units come along. Even playing as a tactical leader with free upgrades it barely seems worth it to use the in between units. Swordsman in the earlier era seems very short lived as well. Some civs have great UUs that just end up being impractical to really get much use out of because they become outdated so quickly while civs with an archer, crossbow, heavy footman etc UU get to milk it for way longer.

It depends a lot on your tech strategy, but this is something I'm always trying to tweak. Hopefully the new tech tree layout coming in 1.23 will improve things further. A big part of the challenge is placing units so that they last a decent amount of time but don't break historicity in the process.

What difficulty are you playing on btw?
 
To your other point -
I totally get wanting historical accuracy and I'm not suggesting making everything equal -- just thinking about UUs where some civs get a massive bonus and some barely get to use theirs.
 
I've been meditating on the 1.23 tech tree for some time. A couple of thoughts, I'm sure some of these you are already aware of or have discussed in the past:

Record Keeping
I always found this tech to be a bit awkward in relation to Writing. The icon suggests it includes non-writing systems like Inca qipu, but not necessarily so. The Writing tech would then represent a more widespread or standardized writing proficiency?

It's definitely better than BtS's Writing and Alphabet combination, because it's more inclusive. Still the name Record Keeping seems a bit awkward and together with the icon specifically designed to include qipu, which are a very unique historical case. Most other forms of early record keeping involved some kind of (maybe symbolic) writing.

I would suggest a renaming of the technology to Administration. This would fit well with the historical trends of the period, like educated scribes in Egypt and Mesopotamia supporting the monarch in their rule. Similar in China. Since Administration requires Record Keeping, this would include the current tech while being a bit more encompassing in terms of historical developments.

Constitution
End of the Middle Ages seems really early for this technology, also considering what we are used to from BtS. For me, the idea of Constitution includes some sort of limited government and is evocative of the American and French revolutions and the year of 1848. The position of Constitution in HR seems to refer to early English Parliamentarianism and the Magna Carta. While the latter is often referenced as an early precursor to a constitution, it did not really function like we understand constitutions of the modern period and was largely irrelevant to how England was governed. Again, I don't think it's a problem with the tech itself but rather that name and meaning differ.

Parliaments themselves are a medieval institution, so I would simply suggest to rename the tech to Parliament. That leaves us without an actual Constitution tech. I think the tech should exist though. Best I can think of right now is to rename Representation to Constitution instead. That position and the effects fit with the understanding of what Constitution represents as outlined above.

Insurance
This tech seems to have no real purpose. Besides defensive pacts it has no effect, and that also only has a tenuous connection to insurance. I can only speculate why the tech is there in its current state, with two possible scenarios:

1. you wanted a late Renaissance tech to enable defensive pacts
2. you wanted a commerce oriented late Renaissance tech, but were left without fitting effects

If it is the first, I would suggest to change the tech to Cabinet. Cabinets came up around the time of the tech's position in Europe, and are connected to the idea of cabinet warfare with its shifting alliances that is thematically fitting with defensive pacts. I also think it's an important and often overlooked political innovation. Heritage (especially since that tech enables Versailles) is a much more fitting prereq than to Insurance, and Cabinet itself would be a much more fitting prereq to Representation/Constitution in turn. Sanitation probably makes less sense as a prereq, so that might need some work.

For the second, I can only think of moving Build 50% Wealth from Finance to Insurance. With Banks and through enabling Charter, Finance is already very useful. In the new position 50% Wealth would also come later, which is more in line with when 50% Science becomes available (Scientific Method).

Personally I prefer the first solution.
 
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