Feedback thread

[Quibblesome]

Ah, sorry. Post and then vanish.... er... I was having a "couple" of games.

- Moar secret projects

Yes, when people suggest ideas for them.

Can we go similar to the old projects?

Interplanetary Transit System.
Either all new cities become 3 in size or we have a "lvl 2" unity cryobay. If we go with the former it might be a nice mid-game autarky + hybrid secret project. Perhaps 2 if 3 is IMBA?

Citizens Defence Force Free bunker in every city. Mid game.

Planetary Datalinks Same as in SMAX. You get the tech if three others know it.

Dream Twister
+25 Psi Attack for all units

Neural Amplifier - not on the green tech tree.
+25 Psi Defence for all units

Cloudbase Academy
All vanguard units get +2 experience

Empath Guid - Archeolgoyogjgjy?
Get all comm links, get +1 diplomacy bonus with all AI (get this plus Open Borders for early diplomatic play).

Hunter Seeker Algorithm
Double espionage points?

Maritime Control Center
+2 movement for all ships

Planetary Energy Grid
Would free energy banks would be overpowered?

Theory of Everything
Free tech - late game

Virtual World
Network nodes count as hologram theatres (OP?)

Do you want me to also try to work out which researches should unlock these?

- Getting the videos too

It would be possible, but it would increase the mod's download size too much IMO.

I assumed the videos would be treated as the sound. You use your own originals.

- Obelisks upgrading troops

It would be easy to implement - I just don't like that feature. It leads to repetitive unit micromanagement. If there's one thing SMAC ended up giving me a disdain of in the end, it's micromanagement.

Good point.

I agree. Ideas to make the non-Ecology civics more interesting are welcome.

Here are some suggestions:

Police State - negative great people birth
Fundamentalism - negative tech
Democratic - troop support cost increased

Free Market - random chance to lose credits due to stock market crash
Planned - increased maintenance
Autarky - more war weariness

Knowledge - negative espionage
Power - -2 diplomacy with EVERYONE (including others with power)
Wealth - negative growth

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Oh is it just me is sea native life not a little too hardcore? I think this is mainly due to the fact that the water techs arrive so late so the sea is full of spawn spots. I have difficulty in seeing how Svensgaard will survive when he is added.

 

[Keeper_GFA]

Isn't Morgan supposed to be able to buy units from the start, cuz I can't with him.

To help early game AI survival, why not give a free perimeter defense/bunker in the capitol.

 

[Explorer]

That's called making a strategic choice. If you feel 3 flamethrowers in the area were you would have plonked a bunker are better value for your money, there you go.

It's not a strategic choice when the answer is obvious, so NYAH!

 

[Maniac]

Not everyone agrees the answer is obvious.

 

[Keeper_GFA]

I think Explorer is underestimating the value of a well placed bunker, and the magtube/mobility that go with it.

 

[Explorer]

I think Explorer is underestimating the value of a well placed bunker, and the magtube/mobility that go with it.

I think I must be. All standard units have a Psi defense of either 2 or 3, so early game bunkers are going to be the same as Armor units, only immobile. That means that you can't pull your bunker back to defend another area if a Fungal Bloom occurs on the other side of your territory, either. And the first Flamethrower upgrade has an automatic Psi-attack bonus, so the Flamethrowers are on even keel with bunkers (assuming the Locusts of Chiron actually attack the bunker instead of moving right past it, which it would do if combat odds aren't very good).

What am I missing?

 

[Maniac]

Immobile units have a psi defense of 3. Plus Bunkers have a +50% vs native life, so their effective attack and defense psi is 4.5. The biggest reason to build bunkers however is their ranged strike. Once you have softened up the native life with a ranged strike, your flamethrowers will have a much higher chance to survive the battle and fight another day.

A note aside: if you're getting Locusts from fungal blooms, you must be having very negative Planet values in your bases, yet still have fungus around the bases. You should focus more on removing all fungus around a base. Then you don't need any extra military protection there whatsoever.

 

[Explorer]

Immobile units have a psi defense of 3. Plus Bunkers have a +50% vs native life, so their effective attack and defense psi is 4.5. The biggest reason to build bunkers however is their ranged strike. Once you have softened up the native life with a ranged strike, your flamethrowers will have a much higher chance to survive the battle and fight another day.

A note aside: if you're getting Locusts from fungal blooms, you must be having very negative Planet values in your bases, yet still have fungus around the bases. You should focus more on removing all fungus around a base. Then you don't need any extra military protection there whatsoever.

Ahh...I didn't see any place that said the bunkers have a +50% vs. native life. I guess that makes them good at least at choke points. I've always been using them as forts with an added artillery bonus.

Aren't Locusts the weak units? Well, I meant the native units that look like a bunch of insects in the shape of a blob.

Either way, this is really the crux of my argument there. I'm talking about the early game. Native life forms DO appear during the early game. So should I use my formers to clear the fungus, as I talked about previously, or should I build bunkers? In the early game, I don't have much of a choice about where the fungus is located, nor do I have the opportunity to build extra Formers or unescorted Formers. Now we're getting into the "strategy" I was talking about. In the early game, it just doesn't seem practical to create an extra Former to make a bunker when I need that Former to clear fungus or create military units to defend what I've already created.

 

[Keeper_GFA]

Well in the really early game, you don't have much choice and should be using your formers to clear fungus where necessary and build improvements when/where possible. But that early in the game it shouldn't be too hard to keep a positive Planet rating so that you only have to deal with normal wandering native life.

BTW Maniac, the reason for my posting about giving the capitol a bunker is because I still lose an occasional AI very very early on. Last game it was Deidre on turn 3. I don't know how she lost it so quick, they have some free wins against natives, right? Maybe she left her capitol undefended.

 

[Quibblesome]

Is it intentional that units can prevent native life spawn spots appearing? If I have some fungus, just outside of my borders there is a chance it will move "one square" into my territory unless I station units in those spots. In that case fungus will never enroach upon my borders. It's certainly MUCH cheaper to do this than it is to fight off a bloom.

 

[Maniac]

BTW Maniac, the reason for my posting about giving the capitol a bunker is because I still lose an occasional AI very very early on. Last game it was Deidre on turn 3. I don't know how she lost it so quick, they have some free wins against natives, right? Maybe she left her capitol undefended.

What difficulty level were you playing on?

A bunker in the capital would make an anti-Planet strategy even more attractive compared to pro-Planet. My current feeling is that pro-Planet might not be attractive enough unless you're playing the Gaians.

Is it intentional that units can prevent native life spawn spots appearing? If I have some fungus, just outside of my borders there is a chance it will move "one square" into my territory unless I station units in those spots. In that case fungus will never enroach upon my borders. It's certainly MUCH cheaper to do this than it is to fight off a bloom.

Bunkers keep plots free of all kinds of fungus effects.
Units can prevent spawning spots, and will cause natives to spawn on an adjacent spot instead of the plot the units are on, but they can't prevent fungus itself.

I consider placing units on hotspots a valid tactic by the way. Those units still cost minerals and unit maintenance.

 

[Quibblesome]

My current feeling is that pro-Planet might not be attractive enough unless you're playing the Gaians.

If we bring autarky down the tech tree a bit this would help pro-planet players spread more quickly. That's always my annoyance when playing pro-planet. The maintenance costs (as you keep your cities generally smaller).

Also i'm starting to think that Santiago's special ability. Troops = +1 happy in cities is WELL overpowered. Considering how tough it is to keep cities happy early game. Perhaps it should only be up to X units?

 

[Pfeffersack]

My current feeling is that pro-Planet might not be attractive enough unless you're playing the Gaians.

I can't support that feeling generally - the green strategy has the huge advantage of "free" and powerful units, which multiply themselves. And at least vs. the AI they offer a great advantage on the battlefield (plus you don't have to fight the planet as much as Terrfaormers have to), when combined with conventional forces as someone else already mentioned recently. You just have to survive the time until you can capture/build the first native units.

There is one issue though - following a (light) green strategy when not playing Deidre means that you (currently - I hope that this problem gets auto-fixed to an extend, when when have the additional SMAX factions in the game) get "locked" in the concordate council, as soon as you pass the treshold of +1 PA. Deidre nearly always has a high and better PA from the beginning on and often only 1 other AI joins the CC...then you have to obey to her visions or you have to defy the resolutions constantly.

 

[Keeper_GFA]

BTW Maniac, the reason for my posting about giving the capitol a bunker is because I still lose an occasional AI very very early on. Last game it was Deidre on turn 3. I don't know how she lost it so quick, they have some free wins against natives, right? Maybe she left her capitol undefended.

What difficulty level were you playing on?

A bunker in the capital would make an anti-Planet strategy even more attractive compared to pro-Planet. My current feeling is that pro-Planet might not be attractive enough unless you're playing the Gaians.

It was on Monarch. Normally losing a faction early wouldn't be a big deal, except that there's so few factions atm. As for the pro-Planet strategy, it is so easy as to be automatic with the Gaians. I think Pfeffersack's "light green" strategy is viable in the early game for everyone in most cases but I don't think it's worth maintaining long term for them if the Gaians are kept in the game.

 

[Explorer]

I can't support that feeling generally - the green strategy has the huge advantage of "free" and powerful units, which multiply themselves. And at least vs. the AI they offer a great advantage on the battlefield (plus you don't have to fight the planet as much as Terrfaormers have to), when combined with conventional forces as someone else already mentioned recently. You just have to survive the time until you can capture/build the first native units.

There is one issue though - following a (light) green strategy when not playing Deidre means that you (currently - I hope that this problem gets auto-fixed to an extend, when when have the additional SMAX factions in the game) get "locked" in the concordate council, as soon as you pass the treshold of +1 PA. Deidre nearly always has a high and better PA from the beginning on and often only 1 other AI joins the CC...then you have to obey to her visions or you have to defy the resolutions constantly.

I like where this thought is going. In one of my games, I tried to ride the middle as a "light green", but it was really tough to sprawl without being completely pro-planet, as I was heavily into a red planet score in all my cities whenever they got to a decent size. Then I remembered--what about the Recycling Centers from the original? That would be helpful for everybody, and would allow for a little better way to ride the middle. They could have a +2 planet score, and maybe a flat +2 hammers or +3 energy (although ironically in real life, most recycling programs cost more money than they produce, so hammers would probably be more realistic). That would be a good early-game assistance that terraformers may not want to waste their time making. Plus, it's very useful for small population cities because they get the benefit of more production with fewer citizens.

Say, would it be possible to make certain "green improvements" cost less to build, based on your planet score? That's another way high planet score players would be incentivized to keep their populations low.

EDIT: Oh, I did want to mention that when I talk about a light green civilization, I also mean not running the Voice of Planet religion, too. I'm basically trying to place just enough empaths and facilities to keep my planet score in the low reds/low greens. Say, how about having certain facilities automatically place your planet score further in the red? Like manufacturing centers and/or factories give you a +1 or +2 red planet score. That might require more "green" facilities or certain facilities give you a higher green planet score, but it would make for a more conscious decision whether you go the terraformer or planet route, with a middle-of-the-road position that could have "neutrality benefits." Just another thought.

 

[Pfeffersack]

What the concordate council on the other hand does nicely is uniting the green players vs the terraformers - if a concordate member is attacked by a Terraformer, chances are high that the declare war resolution comes up soon, even if Deidre rules the council alone. So she cares as intended for the ones follwoing her green visions.
My current game has evolved into a 3:3 conflict between Hybrids and Terraformers (the Believers as weakest and 4th party on the latter side were conquered already)

Also the new "eating" natives are a much bigger thread...they are now usually able to hold captured bases longer, which crates a couple of side effects - not only they breed units and the faction, which has lost the base can't build there anymore for a longer time, it also leads to the captured base gaining a cultural radius under native control. And that can lead to island hopping, I lost a base this way when I ignored the NL-infested Yang base on a nearby island...

A small issue with the well improvement...is there a special reason why it does not cause eco-damage like a mine?
Ok, it is the sole improvement to be able to use Helium, but we could still allow Helium to be used by building a field lab on top (like it is done for Uranium). That would offer a choice between maximum tile yield and keeping things clean.

 

[Maniac]

Can we go similar to the old projects?

The names are ok, but I don't like the effects.
I figured the Citizen's Defense Force could be something like Chichen Itza: +25% defense in all bases.

I assumed the videos would be treated as the sound. You use your own originals.

Impossible. They need to be converted to BIK format.

Civics:

Here are some suggestions:

I'm rather looking for interesting positive benefits, especially for Democratic and Police State.

Also i'm starting to think that Santiago's special ability. Troops = +1 happy in cities is WELL overpowered. Considering how tough it is to keep cities happy early game. Perhaps it should only be up to X units?

It's been a while since I played the Spartans. Speaking theoretically though, all factions can remove their happiness problems with Genejack Factories or Free Market, so I don't really see why it's overpowered.

Hybrid strategy:

I can't support that feeling generally

To clarify, I think the Hybrid strategy is powerful enough in general, except for the very beginning of the game. It is my impression that the advantages of those extra workers in your headquarters in the early game are often too big to pass up. As the early game has a huge influence on the Planet Attitude, this means a Hybrid strategy becomes impractical for the rest of the game because of those first few years or decades. I don't know. Perhaps another +1 Planet for the Headquarters building is enough to make an early Hybrid strategy more viable. I'm especially concerned that the AI currently doesn't seem to go pro-Planet often enough. Which is crucial for the whole Planet Flowering idea.

There is one issue though - following a (light) green strategy when not playing Deidre means that you (currently - I hope that this problem gets auto-fixed to an extend, when when have the additional SMAX factions in the game) get "locked" in the concordate council, as soon as you pass the treshold of +1 PA. Deidre nearly always has a high and better PA from the beginning on and often only 1 other AI joins the CC...then you have to obey to her visions or you have to defy the resolutions constantly.

I don't think having to constantly defy resolutions is a problem. But perhaps the consequences of defying should be changed. I was earlier thinking defying a Concordat could cause a temporary reduction in Planet in all your bases. That way if you defied too often, you'd eventually be automatically kicked out of the Concordat. Makes sense. The problem I see is that this could cause fungal blooms near some of your bases because of political issues with another faction. Doesn't make sense.

My current game has evolved into a 3:3 conflict between Hybrids and Terraformers

Bah, why doesn't that never happen to me?

Also the new "eating" natives are a much bigger thread...they are now usually able to hold captured bases longer, which crates a couple of side effects - not only they breed units and the faction, which has lost the base can't build there anymore for a longer time, it also leads to the captured base gaining a cultural radius under native control. And that can lead to island hopping, I lost a base this way when I ignored the NL-infested Yang base on a nearby island...

Might need some rebalancing. Time will tell I guess. Basically the new mechanic has a good side and a bad side for the AI. The fact that other factions can't capture the AI's lost base for a couple turns, means the human player can't just steal the AI's lost base from under its nose. On the other side the native spawning makes it harder to recapture the base. However I do want that native spawning to put the human player under a time pressure to recapture a base of himself that's lost.

A small issue with the well improvement...is there a special reason why it does not cause eco-damage like a mine?
Ok, it is the sole improvement to be able to use Helium, but we could still allow Helium to be used by building a field lab on top (like it is done for Uranium). That would offer a choice between maximum tile yield and keeping things clean.

If possible I prefer to keep it simple and have a resource only be enabled by one improvement. The reason why Uranium has the Mine and Field Lab thing, is not because of the extra yield<->less pollution choice (which is certainly somewhat interesting), but because I want to allow a Renewable Energy->Nuclear Physics b-line without forcing one to research to Centauri Geology as well.

 

[GeoModder]

It's not a strategic choice when the answer is obvious, so NYAH!

In light of your later responses, the "nyah" went right back in your throat.

 

[Lord Tirian]

Finally played a bit more, since the more recent patches preserved my savegames!

Was playing University on Noble, rather defensively this time, so I tried to be green! This has shown me that going for sea bases is a very good strategy for positive PA players:

• Sea Communes are available at a nice point in the game (land communes come a bit late to be really useful
• Positive psi from sea communes offset sea boreholes rather easily, making them very productive bases (and kelp is great for food)
• Native life keeps non-greens out of the water pretty well, since native sea life is still harsher than land natives (meaning you get more out of the fact that natives avoid your borders in favour of attacking terraformers
• Sea commune output is fun for breeding a lot of mindworms!
• High mobility due to the fast movement on water - terraformers can use cool things like drop troopers, airlifts, dropships - but they require extra minerals to be invested (which are harder to get for hybrids), on water you still get fast movement for "free" in your territory

My impression so far is also that the well-flowing part of the game is better. A couple of months ago, I was complaining that the mid/endgame was lacking polish and fun. Now I made it to tier 8/9-ish in techs without the feeling that the techtree is too sparse. It's well-populated with cool stuff and units and I have the feeling that Planetfall has hit a nice spot in terms of build options you have.

I just have to say that the final techs give the impression of a very sudden end to the tech tree - it's sort of a downer not to get a lot of cool things with discovering something so awe-inspiring sounding like "Transcendence"! In vanilla Civ (and FfH and Dune Wars), the end of the tech tree sees a lot of branches "merging" - that definitely gives more of an "endgame" feel as you see the end of the tech tree.

Finally, a small criticism with an early building: The network node is too useless after the early game - the +2 beakers are great at the start, later they have much less impact (happiness is always hard to get, so is health, so these things don't devalue, but beakers... are a lot easier to get later on, as commerce boosts translate into that as well). I don't like having sort of "dead" choices lying around. Perhaps they could have some special effect if you adopt Democracy (they allow democratic participation via net access) or Police State (then they become "Propaganda Towers") - like extra happiness, less war weariness, less distance maintenance or perhaps a small culture bonus.

Cheers, LT.

 

[Quibblesome]

Impossible. They need to be converted to BIK format.

Is that an impossible conversion or could someone else code that up to put them in? If they were converted would it be tricky to wire them in?

It's been a while since I played the Spartans. Speaking theoretically though, all factions can remove their happiness problems with Genejack Factories or Free Market, so I don't really see why it's overpowered.

Well I only play on Monarch and I should probably up the difficulty tbh. Because of the difficulty level Genejack Factories is WAY up the tech tree, less so with Free Market but i'm not going to get that for a while. As Spartan, as long as I don't have to cross a sea to meet everyone all I need to do is research Infantry and spam them. If I have any happiness problems I just build troops. I don't need to tech Recreation Commons or Childrens Creche and I can build a mighty capital (7,8 or 9 early game). To me this is the complete opposite of the hapiness issues I get with other factions where I have to keep hitting the "prevent growth" button to stop my cities becoming sad (and rebellious) and spend time teching happiness techs. It's possible that I am not correctly utilising Free Market though. That gives me happiness per wealth slider (implied by tech slider) ?

To clarify, I think the Hybrid strategy is powerful enough in general, except for the very beginning of the game

I disagree, In my games I find the main benefit of staying green is just that the native life doesn't bloom near your bases. If I get 2 x spore launchers and 2 x mindworms appear near my base early then that is a huge military distraction. That's enough for me to go green.

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Oh and before I forget (as I am ungrateful bastard) the recent changes are very nice. New UI, slightly modded tech tree and general changes all play out very nicely. A big thankyou!